Porsche

[Jacques]

Hi all,

On my way home from Work today, I drove behind a Porsche panamera 4. It really shook me how big that monster is. Wide, long and very tall. It is absolutely not a sportscar and looks like a better quality korean 4-Wheel-drive-suv-city-go-around. A grotesque anormality that shouldn't have been conceived.

There is no way I would ever buy that.

I know that Porsche is thriving a lot on these type of cars, but in the same time, I see their sports image (also historical) fade away - slow, but sure. All made by their own descisions and greed.

What a nasty fate for a sportscar brand.

 

What is your take on this?

 

Kind regards,

Jacques

[Bibs]

£350k+ and very much a sports car. I've driven a 997 GT3 RS and it's a hell of a car. 

 

[macey]

Porsche, Audi, BMW aren't they all made by German robots?

Edited September 15, 2014 by macey

[TBD]

Yes they are made by robots, but that is the good news. Robots don't get drunk on weekends and build cars with a hangover on Mondays. 

But, you're right, the Panamera is a catastrophy on wheels. Unfortunately it's what people are buying, particularly in the key growth markets. And,  as Bibs points out, it's these cars that give Porsche the budget to build great sports cars (in greater numbers than Lotus). 

[Snoopy1969]

In the nineties porsche developed a 4dr coupe but decided - in short - that it would be too expensive to produce and no one would buy it. The Panamera does not look too different to that former prototype ( think 996 streched with engine in the front...) but today they are build and..... Bought a lot! But - and this a real big but: can you imagine a car aficionado opens his garage and enjoying a 10 year old panamera? Definetely no! Even now a lot of cayennes 1st gen are standing at poor third class dealers and nobody would buy these (for our german friends: Freilandhaltung im Kies beim Fähnchenhändler.....).

Even the depreciation of the water cooled 911 is much higher than in the former days, 80ies, mid-nineties, all big signs that the magic of the brand goes down slowly....... Well, they might build fine cars but exciting ones in general? Besides special GT etc not for me- or as my wife said when thinking about buying the Evora in 2011: I understand that you are interested in the Evora but you would never consider a modern Porsche- so right!

[Jacques]

I agree that Porsche can and do make sportscars, such as the one Bibs shows on the Picture. But my point was more that they seem to make a lot of different cars, and thereby not being a pure sportscars brand. To me they seem to dillute themselves. And in turn will or may become something else than a sportscar maker.

 

World changes and I can to a certain extent understand the search for alternative income. to fund the sportscars. But i am asking this: what did they do before ?

There is in my view a chance of deleting Little by Little the pure sportscar image they have. In the end one may as well buy a nasty imprezza version 10.000 or whatever.

 

There is also a chance that potential customers are looking elsewhere, as Porsche can be looked at as a Company that will do anything for Money. I am one of those, and I turned away and looked at Lotus instead.

 

Technical and inspection wise (some would say quality), I don't trust robots. They make errors, and one only need to look at VW's primary chains, Toyota's whatever, peogeot's burning brakes and elecrtonics and so on and so forth.

Recently I read on here about smoking porsche's, Water ingress etc.

 

That drunken man belongs to the 1960ies and 1970'ies. I think it's not the same today. Passion and income play a role here.

I trust a human more.

Just saw a national geographic video about Lamborghini, and they are proud to say that all their cars are painted by humans, as it gives them better control and better quality.

 

With enormous "new" markets like russia and china and more, heritage becomes even more important, so in my view no need to introduce lifelines on suv's and all the other new stuff. I think many new customers are buying the brand and it's history to promote themselves and their newfound wealth.

One could also argue, that in a time of crisis, people tend to revert to their roots. We have seen this tendency in many areas the last 7 years, But Porsche seem to defy that and go their own way.

I certainly hope that Lotus will never ever do something similar.

 

I agree very much to what you argue Willi.

 

In fact, I feel sorry for Porsche and their history.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[Snoopy1969]

Jacques- you asked what they did before- well there was a time when they were independent, building there cars with a lot of handbuild work and were nearly bankrupt several times...... Remind you of another sports car brand..;-).....Even Mercedes helped them with a large contract, building 500e's.....They also have some not so lucky acting ceos.......then wiedeking arrived.....and all changed (ok a little bit simplified but in general...) The problem is: people do not want a sports car but a limo or a SUV with a great image- that is the "secret" of the success of Porsche today- but the image will slowly get down and then? Another simple brand of the multi brand vw store remains.....

[Jacques]

Yes, I know their history or at least some, and I have several books about the brand Porsche. I think all brands have good and bad ceo's and sometimes they seem to do what they should have done when times were different - retrospect. Wasn't there a time when VW wanted to buy Porsche and then the opposite?

Anyway, I think the thought (and action) of going along to what people want may not allways be the right thing to do. Sticking to ones own idea gives integrity and creates a brand that books are written about.

Without steadily working through and overcoming dificulties and hard times, being that invention, regulation, market, economy etc, is all part of a natural cycle that everything have to endure and pass through.

And it only makes you stronger or dissapear into history. But keeping your integrity. I see Porsche today as selling their integrity one could say.

 

On the other side, i hope a new ceo will arise, or even market demand, and they will come to their senses

 

Most of the cars they make today are not even worth mentioning, and will certainly not pass into history of great sportscars.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[DanR]

Think of the buyers in those new markets you mentioned, Russia, China et al. Would they really care and study the heritage? Having the Porsche badge for them may be all that matters. It's a lot about image, success, esteem and western culture.

[Snoopy1969]

I guess you will see another Kind of Impact at Ferrari in the future after the Demission of Luca di Montezemolo - they will produce more cars and maybe also - look in the Crystal ball..... - mor cars for the "new" markets - my sight in General: petrolheads and car aficionados are good for producing exciting Sport cars and (for example: racing-) heritage (not to forget: when F. Piech was a young guy he invested that much Money in racing that Porsche nearly went bankrupt) but the "other" CEO is good for making Money.....

[Jacques]

I couldn't say for sure, but here in Denmark, we get a zillion chinese tourists every year, and they are crazy about history. I'd guess that spending a lot of Money on a Porsche would crave a history that is in fact true and ongoing too.

Another thing is the rarity as Willi mentions. I think that if something is too comon, some buyers would loose interest, because everyone's got one. So that have surely happened to Porsche. Even in Denmark where I live, where we pay nearly three times as much for a car, Porsche is quite common. On that basis alone, they will loose interest, compared to the many new sportscar brands.

And, as I mentioned earlier, added to the fact that they make a lot or "ordinary" cars now and have been for some time, I would say, that it's a bit like peeing in the trousers. Warms for a while, then it get's Cold, roughly speaking. Here, there are certain Groups of the population that have taken the audi and BMW brands to them in such a degree, that other customers are refraining from buying those brands. That may well happen to Porsche, if they don't hold the sports-flag high. That is a very bold statement, I know, but still something that have happened.Here audi is seen as a deluxe version of vw, and BMW is normally looked at as a fine Machinery, but common as muck, with an enourmous depreciation unless it's the newest version, and even then many people I mentioned before jsut order some items and stickers on fleabay and claim theirs to be an m-model, thereby effectively degrading BMW even more.

As I see it, Porsche is on the verge of having to chose what they want to do: keep going out of the track they are following now? Or revert to former glory and rarity/sportscars?

I think Ferrari is now in a position where they should choose what to aim for. F1 loosing a bit of territory and themselves in the winnings too. Here, many people are turning away from watching F1. It's simply boring, myself included - I haven't seen a single race this year. Rallye and dtc etc are more on the way up. Recently there was this Copenhagen Historical Grandprix, and it was swarming with people of both genders and all ages. The focus on old style and the past have hit big time. Suv's and the like are on the way down.

I'd surely hope Ferrari don't fall for the same temptation as Porsche.

 

Are some of these tendencies I have tried to descripe, also happening in your countries?

 

Btw. I'd better mention, that I am all sportscars, mening that I'd happily see many more on the streets, and not focusing on WHO, on the social ladder or whatever, drives them.

 

Just for fun: I have a lot of Scalextric and other similar brands, and I think it's fun racing them. There's a lot of focus on old style cars. Can you imagine soem suv's or a panamera 4 racing? Well, I can't

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Regarding production numbers, I think only Lotus stands out as still being relatively exclusive. Any corporate CEO would of course see that as a very Bad Thing. During my impressionable teen years (mid 1980s), I would probably see a new model Lamborghini on the road maybe once a year, a Ferrari or an Aston maybe three or four times. A new Lotus (Excel or Esprit) probably 10 times. A Porsche (924 (yuk), 944, or 911) maybe 20 times.

 

That figure for Lotus is probably still valid, whereas the others are probably 10 times more common nowadays.

 

Nearly 30 years on, I still clearly remember when I saw my first Countach QV & Jalpa, 288 GTO & Testarossa, V8 Vantage Volante & Zagato and 959.

 

Back then all of these respective companies were run by genuine and passionate enthusiasts and their products were purchased by genuine and passionate enthusiasts. Sadly this no longer applies and sales volume and profitability is now King amongst the current generation of corporate suits for hire: "Our predecessors spent decades building a "brand", so let's cash in today for the good of the shareholders. If the mass market wants an SUV, we'll build an SUV. If the market wants an executive saloon, we'll build one of those as well. It doesn't matter if our factory isn't big enough to cope, we'll just build them cheaper somewhere else."

[TBD]

Heritage is only a small part of the story. Wiedeking at Porsche once said, "we don't sell cars, we sell lifestyle" and that is what actually save Porsche and has been their warrant for success since then. Sure, heritage and racing success are an essential part of the story, but in today's real world most potential buyers are more interested in expressing their lifestyle than cutting corners on a trackday.

 

Both Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston and Porsche focus on this aspect. Us fans are glad Lotus doesn't (just think of the uproar DB produced), but Lotus would do well to not ignore this market.

[Jacques]

I think you hit the nail Michael.

Lifestyle changes, and them you better have something to fall back on

 

For many years, I did not see many sportscars, just a few old style brit ones. But then slowly it rose a bit in number. But now, I see many Porsches, ferrari's (well more or less).

All theses years, I have hardly ever seen a Lotus apart from a few 7, genuine or replicas.

But the Esprit? never seen one drive, for 30 years here in Denmark. I only ever saw two Esprit Turbo (Stevens) parked, once.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[The Pits]

We have a comparison coming up here between my own V6 Cup and the latest Cayman S and 991 GT3. Credit where it's due of course but I have some honest views on the cars that you won't find in the car magazines.

I will say that a quick go in Bibs's Evora shortly afterwards compared very favourably with the feeling of quality and 'completeness' you find in a Porsche. I know how Porsche does it, I've no idea how Lotus manages it with the resources they have.

I said from the very first Cayenne that it goes against everything I understand about building and maintaining a brand. But how wrong could I be? Strangely, the uk motoring press are very supportive of Porsche SUVs but that must help. It's not embarrassing to own a Cayenne, whereas a 911 convertible tiptronic used to be. Not any more. It should erode their integrity as a sports car maker just like years of making fwd hatches has eroded Alfa's. And it can't be good that such great engineering talent is being wasted trying to make SUVs handle. But right now they're queuing round the block to buy the 991 GT3 despite the whole fire pr disaster.

[Jacques]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. I look forward to reading that.

 

Kind regards,

Jacques.

[softlips]

The Panamera and Cayenne are their biggest selling models, someone must like them.

[Bibs]

They like the badge. If they liked the car, they'd buy the Audi Q7 instead and save a small fortune.

[TBD]

They like the badge. If they liked the car, they'd buy the Audi Q7 instead and save a small fortune.

Or the VW Tuareg and save a big fortune. 

[Vanya]

Or the VW Tuareg and save a big fortune. 

 

Or the Skoda equivalent of the Tuareg?