Mass debate on bbc news at 8

[Kimbers]

Can someone answer why UKIP being English Nationalists is dangerous, Bigoted and Racist, but the SNP are considered the best thing since sliced bread, despite trying to stop democracy by offering to vote against the Tories on every vote, purely to stop them doing anything in parliament. And being openly anti-English and against the UK???? 

[basalte]

Most frightening is our politicians`  lack of experience of war. Winston Churchill`s famous quote "it is better to jaw-jaw than war war" stemmed from his direct experience both as a war correspondent in the Boer War and in the trenches of WW1.  Contrast Bliar and Cameroon`s willingness to lob missiles and airstrike all and sundry. 

There is a yet more serious linked point to be made over defence cuts if we are left with just a big red button to press marked "nuclear annihilation" over every threat that arises.

[C8RKH]

Oh Kimbers, bless your cotton socks me old mucker. Do you not realise that the SNP are all about "Progressive" politics?  How can something that is progressive be bad? Progressive implies, well, progress and "....ives" and well progress and "ives" is good isn't it? Certainly sounds good but I don't think the SNP or Sturgeon have actually outlined what progressive really is. You know, in words of one syllable so those simple folk like us, you know, the voters, actually understand.

 

In other words, the SNP are just better at playing the game than UKIP, though they have had 50 years longer in playing it so they should be better.

 

It's the same reason that the Tories get blamed for the creeping privatisation of the NHS (hmmm, think Labour and PFI here); that they get blamed for having friends who are bankers (hmmmm, think it was LAbour who dismantled all the controls prior to the 2008 crash); and why they get blamed for austerity even though it has provided the fastest growing economy in the developed world and taken the employment figures to the highest they've been for decades - Like UKIP, the Tories are actually pretty bad at the PR machine whereas Labour et al, the loony left if you like, actually are pretty good at it.

[Kimbers]

Tories and their supporters are too polite. Whilst the Labour/Green/SNP shout down anyone who disagree's with them and won't let them speak and in this area have been going out at night and destroying UKIP and Tory Boards outside houses. The Tories and UKIP politely wait to speak....which just doesn't happen. If they do get a word in you are right. They are accused of only looking after rich people and privatising the NHS.

 

Sod the fact that they have actually rescued us from Labours incompetance!

[C8RKH]

Do you know what really winds me up is the way that the Left and SNP always hark back to Thatcher - holy moley that was over 30 years ago and what exactly have they done since then to turn things around? You cannot blame one woman, and one party, and the actions they took 30 years ago for all todays ills. If that was the case then we'll be blaming Labour for the fiasco of their 12 years in power for another 25 years!!!!!

 

Yes, Thatcher's last term was awful - so was Blair's and Labours - in fact, most 3rd terms have been awful despite the party in power. So, when Cameron says he has lerned from the past, and publicly says with conviction if you vote me in I will ONLY stay for this term then go, he should be applauded. But oh no, the left and the BBC then slam him for it - he was only using his common sense....

 

Yes Thatcher did some daft things - but then what about the good?  She got Britain back working. She was literaly responsible for almost a million people getting on the housing ladder - many of those who fiercely slag her off where (1) not even born when she was in power and (2) are going to be the first generation of their families to actually inherit a property from their parents - I know I will be and I will raise a glass of Champers to Maggie to say thank you.

 

You are right, the so called hard right, the fascists and scum and whatever the left wants to call them are in reality just too nice, too polite and too decent. Every one of the Labour front bench team, especially those bloody awful women (Harmen and the like) just shout and scream at the opposition - you see them on Question time and they are like rabid dogs with the scent of blood in their noses - they never let anyone finish etc. Sturgeon is just the same, with her snear and wagging finger.

 

Maybe it's time to toughen up the Tories and send them to some sort of anarchist boot camp.....  

[Barrykearley]

Bring on the revolution......

Thatcher should be made a saint in my view...... I grew up in a top floor council flat.... Thatcher inspired those who could be bothered.

My parents worked and grafted as thatcher inspired many.... Yeah sure some didn't bother and frankly we still have that problem.

We have a lack of responsibility these days.....and it's as simple as that "responsibility"

You have kids - you support them

You have bills to pay - you pay them

You want money - you work for it.

Feeding and looking after yourself is your own responsibility

We live in a time when everything is an entitlement ......everyone has rights.....even if it impinges on another's rights.

Yet lots people seem to shirk this at every opportunity... Its a disgrace.

Successive governments have literally written off whole generations of people - yes they should have the responsibility to have done some thing about it....but this is what we lack.

On the same side - governments have not been responsible in the last 30 years by allowing it - although they will again all avoid being responsible.

A call to arms for the revolution I say .......

[C8RKH]

Scotland is under 10% of the UK population.

 

Of those in Scotland who could vote (and that included 16 and 17 year old's who cannot vote in the election next month), some 45% of the voters, or 37% of the Scottish population (or 3.7% in UK population terms) actively voted for Independence for Scotland in the referendum.

 

So the real figure in terms of UK population who back the SNP is probably around 3%. And now, we have the leader of the party that represents the views of 3% of the UK acting as Kingmaker. I think the revolution may have started but I do hope that the masses rise up and put it firmly down and in its place.     If Scots really want independence, and this is backed by a majority vote, then we should concede with grace and let it happen.

 

After 21 years living and supporting and paying taxes in Scotland, if Nicola thinks that I am now ready to see her take even money from me to pay for her "progressive" politics then she needs a kick up the backside. I fear that a house will soon be on the market in Perthshire. Why should I pay more in tax, to live in Scotland, and earn less than my peers in the same company pay to live in England? Why should my UK pension be ceded to the SNP in Scotland? I should have the choice as to what happens to my pension. Surely personal choice is what progressive policy is all about????

 

I fear the United Kingdom is already lost and given the choice, then I believe the best thing I can do is to up sticks and move to England, as I do not want to be a "foreigner" in another country, which would be the case when Scotland finally gains its independence. Indeed, during the referendum it was made clear to me on many occasions that I was not welcome - I guess that's progress......

[basalte]

Looks like it falls to me to put some kind of alternative view to those of the Right Wing "Hey! Aren`t Very Rich People Great for Us All!" camp even though you will be aware that I will not be voting for Labour or any of the other major parties. 

 

Through our wonderful investigative impartial mass media (71% of which is billionaire-owned and wil therefore  be supporting the Tories)  various myths  parade  as "Common Sense". Benefit scroungers defrauding 0.7% of the social security budget-sorry-a stain on our Nation for one. 

 

Just been reading Owen Jones`s book "The Establishment" where he brings the facts and figures to bear to prove conclusively that all the major parties are all playing the same game-protecting the tax-avoiding and evading wealth -hoarders-sorry - "creators"upon whom we all depend for the health of our  Nation. Luckily their selfless patriotic actions in paying themselves mega bonuses for making a loss has restored this country to rude health. Just watch those interest rates shoot up in celebration!     

 

Things fall into place when you realise that all Governments of whatever stripe since 1979 have followed the Ideology of Monetarism   The songs may be different but the hymn sheet is the same. State intervention is always wrong even when consumers get ripped off with horsemeat , fake BOGOF from supermarkets and payday loan-defaulters get fake threats from fake law firms, pensioners freeze and over a million get chucked off the property ladder in London because after all houses are Assets not Homes .  

 

Like the Nissan Almera ad campaign,  there are ideas and ways of doing things that They don`t want you to know about !

[C8RKH]

Basalte, we are of course all entitled to our opinions and in this so-called Democracy that we have this is a principle that must be upheld.

 

Though you did lose me with this quote -  "Through our wonderful investigative impartial mass media (71% of which is billionaire-owned and will therefore  be supporting the Tories)".  In my opinion this is just not true and I would say that the political sway of all the mainstream press is actually "labour" biased in general and not Tory. But then, that is my opinion.

 

And let's not forget that the BBC does have a significant Leftist/Socialist bias in its reporting which more than makes up for the impact of a small number of right wing newspapers.

 

What does get me though is the implication that i you vote Tory your a Toff/Billionaire and if you vote Labour you're a worker. I think this is where it has all gone wrong for me as I actually see the Conservatives/UKIP as being more in touch with me as a worker (I work for a company as an employee, I do not have my own company etc) than Labour.  To me, Labour is the party of the public sector, be they public sector employees or people on unemployment benefits.  

 

I do not include those with long term chronic illnesses, mental illnesses or physical disabilities in this group, these are people who rely on welfare payments to have a semblance of a normal life and we should feel obligated as a nation to support these people.

 

The other people on welfare benefits, I feel less sympathy for.  We could afford to have a comfortable life with 2 kids, so we had 2 kids. 3 would have been a struggle and 4 financially impossible. So I just do not understand the view that people who have more kids than they can afford to support should be looked after by my taxes. To me, that is utter rollocks, is total hypocrisy and shows that "these" people have nothing but utter contempt for the rest of the hard working tax paying population if they truly believe they should be supported to have more kids than they can afford to look after themselves.

 

Again, it has been said earlier, but we really do need to move away from this entitlement culture.  You want stuff, you go out and find work and earn the money to pay for it.  No work in your area, then move to areas where there are work. I've had to do that several times and despite being from Liverpool my first job was in Manchester, my second in Leeds, my third in Rochdale, my fourth in London and my fifth in Perth Scotland!

 

The working class used to be very proud, worked hard, played hard and expected no charity. Sadly, we have created a whole generation who believe that just because they were born they are entitled.  This is what we need to fix and I would trust the Tories more to fix it, and to get back people back to work by backing workers, than Labour, who will just tax workers more to give more way to those who don't.

 

As for the NHS, all parties spout nonsense. The SNP have presided over a net decrease in NHS spending over the past 5 years. Labour introduced a series of privatisation schemes, including PFI, that was a disaster for the NHS and in the past 5 years, whether we like to admit it or not, the Tories have actually increased net spending on the NHS. So who do we believe when we listen to the rhetoric on the TV?

 

Maybe just as we have seen the rise of the SNP in last 7 years, we will see in England the rise of UKIP - they are young and naive party yet if you read their manifesto it actually comes across as a well thought out approach to growth and fairness, obviously if you look beyond the biased left wing press and BBC view that seems to want to portray them as just racist fascists.

 

Again, all of this is in my humble opinion and I am by no means an informed expert, more an interested observer

[Guest hosscartwri]

Basalte

 

Sadly the major parties do seem to be crowding the "centre ground" at this election although their approaches differ in some key areas.

 

More important than that, and in response to your most recent post, even though there may be similarities to the base monetary approaches, the key longer term difference is one of "attitude" which goes back to C8RKH's posts. The "entitlement", "its my right" "its not fair" "the state should provide" "people are stealing our jobs" and similar utterings tend to come from the Socialist side of the balance whereas those of a more right leaning persuasion tend to have a greater belief in self reliance and tend to believe that what the state should provide is a safety net for those who are unable to look after themselves rather than for those who are unwilling to do so.

 

The difference in attitude is important since (and I accept this is a broad generalisation) it translates to an attitude to work and life and whether people take a defeatest approach that there is nothing they can do with their lot in life or whether they are prepared to work to better their (and their family's) situation. Clearly some people are more capable than others, have different talents etc. and no amount of crying "it is not fair" can change that. What can change people's lot in life is how much effort they want to make to help themselves.

 

My parentage is that my mother came from a lower middle class background, were incredibly frugal with money and bought their own very modest house in Liverpool whereas my father's was fundamentally working class (it was said, in the parlance of the age, that his mother married beneath herself!) and they lived in a rented house near Sheffield. My father worked hard at school, won himself scholarships to Grammar School and university and spent most of his working life in research and university teaching - not a well paid profession but one that is of fundamental importance to the economic future of the country.

 

My mother married young, foregoing a university education and took a kindergarten assistant teaching job to help with the pennies and later trained as a Probation Officer and then worked in the Probation Service until her retirement. My parents believed firmly in the value of education and encouraged me and my three siblings to work hard and play hard which we all did to a greater or lesser extent at various times in our formative years which reflected our different rates of academic development. As a family we had very little 'spare' money, didn't have expensive toys, expensive bicycles, overseas or expensive holidays (camping in Devon was a typical holiday) or flash cars. Over the first 20 years of my life my father had a Standard 10, a Standard Ensign and a Saab V4 95 Estate.

 

In other words, we did not grow up with a feeling of entitlement but we did grow up with the attitude that it was important to work hard and, that through doing so, we could better our lot in life and, fortunately, so it has proved.

 

So, when I hear the Labour Party and the SNP glibly talking about ending austerity and spending money hither and thither despite the increase this will lead to in debt and interest payments, I get pretty irritated since, to pay for this, taxes of one description or another will have to increase, the politics of envy is encouraged - the "rich" can afford it etc. I can tell you - living on a pension in the south of England is the quickest way I know of for reducing ones wealth. Yes, house prices are eye watering but banging an arbitrary tax on house values takes no account of disposable income and is effectively another tax on the South on top of what is already the area with the highest cost of living. The Scottish Labour Party has stated clearly that the "mansion tax" is to be used to fund their profligate spending in Scotland.

 

Nonsense like this creates an environment where people begin to question whether it is worth all the effort. A practical example - my eldest son owns an educational software company with its office in London's IT Triangle, works daft hours and employs around 15 highly skilled people. After hearing the hypocritical drivel from Nicola Sturgeon, and then the somewhat misinformed woman in Carlisle saying that the SNP with influence would be good as Sturgeon would stand up for women (even though she is not contesting a seat at Westminster), he sent a "WhatsApp" message saying that he will start making plans to move himself and the company out of the UK.  

 

Need I say more?             

[basalte]

Hi all, many people rightly bring their personal experiences to bear on how they see life and the political choices they make. I would not consider criticising people for conclusions that they have drawn from their own everyday life.  I agree that there is more of a culture of entitlement generally since I was young ; (the constant blizzard of adverts making us out to be inadequate unless we have the latest phone etc, with the attendant trillion-pound personal debts run up ...and I am not immune given my love for my bits of fibreglass and metal - (the old Lotus/Citroens) which brought me here in the first place. 

 

I think I am trying to say that there is such a thing as "The Big Picture" that guides Government considerations-quite often considerations that do not include the consequences for our everyday lives. One notable exception was the NHS formed at a time when this country was impoverished and exhausted by a Government with the moral willpower to wish all this country`s people well.  

 

-Regarding the 2Sense of Entitlement" debate,  I know I will seem a bit flippant or facetious to some  if I say that a bunch of bankers asking the Government for £ 800 billion  because they made colossal  gambles then failed epically is the ultimate "sense of entitlement" . You might call it "Socialism for the Rich" !   Part of the irony is that aspects of the system do discourage people from working. All I know is that tarring the vast majority of the unemployed with the same brush as the skivers, isn`t right either morally or factually.  

 

I would also have to comment on the assertion  that the BBC are "Left Wing". I note that the launch of the Green Party Manifesto was the very last item on the BBC 10 o`clock news, on even  after the sport !  That`s how important it was to them....  

[Kimbers]

But the Greens are crazy and eminently dangerous and don't really deserve any air time IMHO! (sorry).

[red vtec]

 

I would also have to comment on the assertion  that the BBC are "Left Wing". I note that the launch of the Green Party Manifesto was the very last item on the BBC 10 o`clock news, on even  after the sport !  That`s how important it was to them....

 

They may be a left wing setup but the BBC is not completley barmy unlike the Greens....

 

Regards Benifits, I watched skint last night on Channel 4, yes they are skint but they all had mobile phones, fags and booze. One was having a baby with his girlfriend, no job, yet having a baby and then a council house supplied. All with some one else paying the bills. I must admit he did try to get a job and then the govt cut his benefit as they classed him as full time work as he did 16 hours a week!! how can that be full time? hardley an incentive for him to work.

 

 

Regards the NHS, has anyone seen the daily mail investigation into the top management and what they are taking? scandelous. No doubt the same at each and every City and Town council. Thats where our money is going.

[basalte]

Hi, I think it`s worth bringing some facts off the substitutes` bench onto the Debating field (apologies to Alan Partridge)  about this idea that the BBC is "left wing" especially in news coverage.

Yes, it certainly is left wing compared to the Sun, The Daily Star, The Daily Telegraph, the Times, The Daily Express and Daily Mail but let`s list those BBC sandal wearing tree-huggin` politically correct muesli-munchers in full-and they don`t do The Weather ....

 

1. BBC Trust Chairman-Chris Patten, former chairman of the Conservative Party.

2. Andrew Neil, presenter of The Daily Politics and This Week-on the board of The Spectator , former editor on The Sunday Times.

3. Robbie Gibb-editor of those above shows-former chief of staff to Tory Minister Francis Maude.

4.Nick Robinson -former national chairman of the Young Conservatives .

5.Thea Rodgers, was his senior political producer, now works for George Gideon Osborne.

6.Craig Oliver, former BBC news editor-hired by David Cameron after the proven criminal Andy Coulson was sent down-sorry-stepped down .

For the above you may rest assured that the Oxbridge/PPE/Lib/Lab/Con cosy career politicos club is safe and sound and if the alternatives offered in good faith to us the voters are not barmy then the above will make damn sure they get portrayed as such....

[Kimbers]

The BBC has a long history of being accused of Bias one way or the other.

 

There can be no doubt that there was an Anti-UKIP/Right Wing Bias in the last debate. Absolutely no doubt. The Audience has been proved to have more supporters of the 3 left wing parties, but the BBC can say that was representative of the Parties on stage. So is that ok? Personally I don't think so as it doesn't represent the public where there is a more than 50% representation of right to left. I challenge anyone to watch that debate and tell me it was representative of the public (not just the parties in the debate). And therefore, by definition, it was not "un-biased".

 

But Dan is right. they aren't always left wing biased. They have a history of not telling both sides of the story. Israel, for example claims they are Anti-Israeli. The Indians claim they are Pakistani and Muslim Biased and against them etc etc.

[C8RKH]

Basalte so the BBC is not all left wing muesli munchers.

Ok, I'll buy that. So does that mean that not all Tories are nest mates with Bankers, Millionaire CEO's and Oxbridge educated Sons and daughters of priviledge?

So shall we all dispense with the gross generalisations now?

I agree with the last debate comments though and generally find the audience for Question Time, based on the questions chosen from them, are left biased.

As for Andrew Neil - ok he may be right focused but when he asks his questions of Labour, SNP, UKIP, Lib Dem AND Tories he certainly gets them all in knots....

[Barrykearley]

I think we need to forget the left wing and right wing bias here.

The country is so deeply in debt - it makes your eyes water thinking about it.

This fine land needs to be run like a business now. Get in money from tax and evasion etc and control costs out with an iron fist.

I would never want to penalise those in dire need. You only have to look at the poor squaddies coming back from the war zones Blair created. Missing arms and legs, pretty much abandoned by the government - however most of those crack on, work and contribute. These guys are an inspiration and a great example of positive thinking.

We don't need bleeding heart liberals throwing money about or labour just giving it away, nor do we need Tories stopping everything or indeed ukip banning all immigration. But what we do need is real balance - with the guts and determination to look after the UK balance sheet and the bottom line.

Who would we trust to really do this? Hmmm a posh toff or a twat as was stated earlier???

I would like a ruthless businessman - whom can see through the sob stories of the Increasingly fat disabled lobby, unemployed who won't work, businesses who treat our country with contempt in regards of tax, the public sector cash grabbers whom seem to be earning 6 figures.

The unemployed are an issue, get them in, train them in something, and get them on their way earning. Those that can't be bothered............ Well get the sweeping the streets, cutting grass and painting fences..... Anything but get them to positively contribute.

We have an issue with the way they report unemployed. There is the official JSA - then there the ESA which is not counted - then the DLA then the newer PIP........ And I'm sure there's more I have not listed...... But add all those lot up and it's a damn sight more than 2m.

On one housing estate in malvern - it's got to the state where 3/4 of the road has disabled bays marked out on it???

Now I'm sure I'm sounding a bit right wing there - but why should I pay if they can't and won't be bothered? That's an impingement on my human rights frankly.

The country is in such a mess - I'm starting to think the only way out is a civil war!!!

[Kimbers]

Lets keep it Civil please guys. The Politicians mud sling enough for all of us.

[basalte]

I agree Tony, whatever our views the I believe that the true British way in modern times is to be forthright and blunt in politics because the issues are important,but not to be personally offensive or abusive, much less violent .

One of the most kind and decent people I know has right-wing views I fundamentally disagree with and one of the people with left wing views I mostly agree with, is a selfish arrogant so -and -so. 

In more recent times too many people tend to conflate / defensively confuse  the views with the personalities expressing them... that isn`t healthy for Democracy. 

[Kimbers]

Indeed. It's well known by both Dan and me that we have opposing views (He's obviously delusional) but we get on fine both on here and in Personal chats we have had.

 

The issue with Politics is it is a passionate thing!

 

My Grandad once said "There are 3 things you should never talk to your mates about when you are drinking in a pub, because they will always cause a fight mixed with alcohol. 1. Their choice in politics. 2. Their Religion. 3. Their choice in women!

 

Always stick to that......though I may have broken the 3rd one occasionally.

[Barrykearley]

That's because it's nice to change option 3 now and again!!!!

[Advantage]

That's become more and more difficult since the gun laws were brought in.

[basalte]

I see that I share many delusions (especially about public services versus privarisation)  with Professor Sir Stephen Hawking "the most intelligent man  on the planet" who thinks Ed Miliband should be PM .... Mind you,  he doesn`t get out much...

[Guest hosscartwri]

Even the smartest people are wrong sometimes - - - - - - -