Evora Sport 410

[The Pits]

I can't criticize the presentation, Top Gear will be ringing James long time before they ever phone me! 

But it did seem that you came to the review with a fair bit of baggage about the 410, it felt like a summary of your previously formed opinion rather than a fresh take on what the car itself was like to drive. Comparisons with the 400 are inevitable coming from a 400 owner and indeed very interesting. I was reassured that you didn't find it any more harsh than a 400 or any less capable down a poorly surfaced road. I think it was a really good call from Lotus to retain that great Evora quality while improving the track capability. But to conclude that it's a 400 with 10 bhp more seems way-off. The benefits of weight loss never make great headlines and may not be immediately apparent driving within the legal limit on the road but they are central to the Lotus approach to going fast and for me at least, the appeal of the Sport 410. I think criticism for spec'ing the weight back in lies with the customer not Lotus. I think it's fantastic that they will sell someone an Evora without aircon if they wish, who else would do that? But I think it should come as standard and save the customer money if deleted.

An Evora that laps faster than an Exige Sport 350 is big news for anyone who finds the Exige too small or too hardcore. The Sport 410 is a track optimized 400 that works brilliantly on the road. That's appealing enough to tempt me out of my Exige - a car I love dearly and admire enormously. The Sport 410 a mighty package in my opinion, yes I'd prefer it was cheaper and had more power but weight loss was prioritized and on that Lotus have delivered. Imagine a 410bhp Cayman which could be ordered weighing only 1325kg, limited to 150 units?! Can you even begin to imagine the premiums... 

Of course the Evora 400 remains the better choice for many, I think buying a fully-loaded 410 for some kind of flagship status is very much missing the point. Just order a 400 with the carbon pack, it will always have more toys and luxuries. I'm starting to think it would be easier for everyone if they had called it the Sport 400. The extra 10bhp has proved to be an enormous distraction - to my surprise even here. It's the least significant thing about the Sport 410, so a shame for me that this misconception has been reinforced by this video.

Not wishing to come across as critical or contrary, I'm just defending the car that I genuinely adored driving and still hope to own at some point.

For me the 400 was close and but the 410 got the cigar!

 

 

[JayEmm]

I think to be honest Jonny that was a big part of why I had my back up with the 410... I get the ICE and AC free with the 400... and I can delete if I wish. In my opinion the "luxury" bits on the 410 should be NCO, with all the performance stuff being cost options.

I have not had the pleasure of driving an Exige on track, but they feel much punchier than an Evora on the road. I think a large part is psychological - much better NVH, higher seating position, etc... but to keep a 400/410 behind a 350 must take serious peddling. I wonder if the better stability of the large platform cars help?

Edited June 6, 2017 by JayEmm

[The Pits]

Undoubtedly.

Richard's Sport 410 compared very well with my V6 Cup which feels like a rocket on the roads in isolation (noticeably lighter and more urgent than a V6 S). It's stronger in the mid-range no doubt but the 410 comes on very strong over the last 1000rpm. Definitely felt there or thereabouts in comparison with a V6 Cup. Not sure anyone could be asking much more from an Evora. Where's a drag strip for a 400 vs 410 when we need one? Would be a popular video for sure...

 

 

[JayEmm]

I will be at Terminal Velocity on the 23rd of July, a local event at RAF woodbridge, and if someone wants to bring a 410 down, it's on  

[The Pits]

Only able to supply an Exige at present. The 410s for sale at the dealers all have stereos which I'd rather not have. I can't see a factory order showing up in time but hopefully someone out there might be up for it.

[JayEmm]

The joke there being at least one of the 410s I have seen still has all the speakers in it, so presumably the wiring, they're literally just missing a head unit. Hardly scraping for every gram.

If it helps, possibly the most involving Lotus I have driven, nay car, was @M4rk's Cup 360. I was expecting it to be quite terrible as he'd been warning me about the Ohlins, maybe I got it wrong, but five minutes in that car and I "got" what a cup car was about. Really, really special. I couldn't live with it on a daily basis, no way. But that is what the Evora is for I guess.

[Cypriot]

I actually quite like the idea of a fully loaded 410. I am not that interested in its track performance, but in how it feels. On the road, back to back the 400 and 410 are 2 different cars.  The conservation about changing either one from stock should not be part of the debate, as that opens up a whole other world of possibilities and makes comparing them impossible. If I can spec a 410 to have most of the luxuries of the 400, then as a road car I find it very appealing, both from an aesthetic view and a driving perspective, much more so than a 400.  The weight "penalties" are not that great if you fully spec a 410, and if someone is still really bothered about the weight of aircon and sat nav, I would suggest they never ever fill their fuel tank up. At least that's how I view it. The 410 is a fantastic road car, and fully specced new is not much more expensive than a fully loaded 400 especially with all the carbon bits and wheels etc. As a new car purchase, I would be looking at a fully loaded 410 rather a new 400. And call me crazy, but I would spec the normal folding seats back in as well. I want a luxury 410!:p I would then go on a diet to balance out the weight gain.... thanks for the video James!

[JayEmm]

I believe that is how the US customers must have the car

[C8RKH]

Reading this thread with interest. I have an Evora with ac. I hardly ever use the ac, only when it is raining.

Now granted my Evora is not a DD.

I look at the 400 and think yeah, nice. But not worth the cash to swap.

I lust at the 410's even in the wrong colours and wonder can I get the man maths to add up.

A subtle difference but  I like the more raw appearance of the 410 . If I ever make the man maths add up I'm more likely to get a 410 than a 400.

No science behind it just emotion. Maybe as an S1 owner the 400 is good but the 410 great. As a 400 owner maybe I'd need a 450 Sport to feel the upgrade was great. Just a point of view from what Evo400 would  say was a lardy grandad.

[JayEmm]

And the good news then is a 410 is NOT anywhere near as compromised as I expected as a DD.

[blindside]

OK; just watched @JayEmm 's review and my first and overriding impression is disappointment at the general lack of objectivity and continually repeated untested negative comment about the 410's relatively marginal performance gains. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, and James has strong personal preferences around paint colour & seat types in particular that contrast markedly with many other existing actual owners preferences.

Frankly the review smacks a little of sour grapes in light of this telling comment in an earlier post:

On 02/06/2017 at 23:01, JayEmm said:

If I was in a position where I could only buy a brand new car, with no discounts, I would probably have had a 410.

I will definitely be updating my car to 410 GEO, see if it makes a big difference. I suspect it will

If this video was produced to provide advice and guidance to prospective Evora 400/410 buyers then frankly I got a great deal more value from Jonny's far more measured video reviews. The first one coming from an Exige track evangelist helped to convince me to p/x my 400 for a 410.

Let's see back to back performance comparisons wiith a 400 on the same tyres, an Exige 350, or indeed any other marque for that matter. These should be done on track with a pro or gifted amateur driver. Lets see the data, not get subjective performance opinions based on a quick pootle up the road in B&Cs demonstrator.

Abeit just 6 weeks after changing cars I do not regret the decision. Aithough my 410 still being run-in it still feels like a more focused drivers car and I look forward to getting it on track very shortly to confirm this is the case.

[JayEmm]

The video was shot a while ago. Before those comments. My concern is Lotus are on a race to strip every single model to the bone and create the hardcore light version, which may have some appeal, but it doesn't broaden the product range.

I would love to see a fair comparison of 400 and 410, and would happily allow my own vehicle to be used for the purpose. I have nothing to lose, I am sure the 410 will be faster. It should be. I am at the factory this week, I will ask if they will run a 400 round there on Cup 2s and time it. I bet I know what their answer will be. Unfortunately until my videos have audiences of millions my subjective opinions are all I have. I have a chance of reviewing a McLaren soon - how on earth are you supposed to get a proper feel for a car capable of triple the speed limit? Even a track licence losing speeds these cars are so competent.

Jonny will of course have a different opinion to me, and I will admit I am looking at the car more from a road perspective because that's where the Evora shines to me. After all, I would have had my 400 on more track days if only it was actually legal at somewhere other than Silverstone! An astonishing oversight for a track weapon, don't you think?

 

And yes, I am a complete and utter tart and love bright colours - especially on cars like these. Have you seen some of my wardrobe?  

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by JayEmm

[Bibs]

12 hours ago, JayEmm said:

My concern is Lotus are on a race to strip every single model to the bone and create the hardcore light version

I think Chapman would agree with this philosophy and that's hard to argue, it was his company after all.

12 hours ago, JayEmm said:

how on earth are you supposed to get a proper feel for a car capable of triple the speed limit?

I had this when I first tested the Exige S, a car far more potent that I was capable of at the time. Some advice from those more experienced than me said to write for your audience, which in my case is average Lotus owners and enthusiasts, of which I am one. I was told to say how the car makes me feel, not how it is in the hands of an experienced racer or journo who can spend all their time at ridiculous and 'never seen on the road' slip angles. I've kept that in mind ever since. 

[cor]

10 hours ago, Bibs said:

I had this when I first tested the Exige S, a car far more potent that I was capable of at the time. Some advice from those more experienced than me said to write for your audience, which in my case is average Lotus owners and enthusiasts, of which I am one. I was told to say how the car makes me feel, not how it is in the hands of an experienced racer or journo who can spend all their time at ridiculous and 'never seen on the road' slip angles. I've kept that in mind ever since. 

Best comment i read for a long time!!

[JayEmm]

I am not convinced Chapman was entirely weight obsessed. Yes his cars were always light, often through clever engineering. But I think he was on a clear move to go up market. 

The Esprit and Excel were far more luxurious than his earliest cars. He sold off the Seven for various reasons but that you could argue was the purest car they ever made. But he decided he did not wish to be associated with it. Chapman's road cars became comfier, better equipped, AND more expensive.

The Elise is still a superb car and I am glad it exists, but I am not sure it ever made that much money. From what I understand it is quite expensive to make and still people have always criticised the price. I am not convinced adding more Carbon to it and hiking the price up is a solution for that car. It doesn't need it.

We would all love a new Esprit, but sadly I think that is still some way off!

[RJB]

11 hours ago, The Pits said:

Only able to supply an Exige at present. The 410s for sale at the dealers all have stereos which I'd rather not have. I can't see a factory order showing up in time but hopefully someone out there might be up for it.

23rd July you say......

[LF1]

I'm still interested in you initial comment re the 3-11 struggling to keep up on the road - wondering what that's based on?

The review is fine from an asthetic point of view and opinions are opinions - we don't have to agree. Personally I really hate the random finishes on all the current cars, I'd rather not have any CF so that there is just the 2 colours like the original Exige/Elise cup cars. Lightness is important when you are at 10 tenths, but until you are close to th cars capabilities then there are far more satisfying gains to be made by working on your driving.

But I want to see more of the car, I want facts about how they drive and compare, I want to hear he noise they make and most importantly when talking about how they handle/perform against each other I want to see evidence other than quoted Hethel lap times. And lap times are only a part of it. I've back to back tested our V6 and Elise Cup on the Silverstone GP, yes the V6 quicker but the Elise is the one I'd take (and did). This is just my opinion though - I wish I'd got footage of the two cars that day!

Getting these things on track for a day, finding out how much tyre wear/consumables they get through seeing if the brakes really do fade... 

I know from experience a track can lose seconds over a very short period of time for no obvious reason, maybe a slight change in track temperature, wind direction or even air temperature. This is frustratingly apparent testing on Friday testing (brands was a nightmare last week) - the cars need to be tested at similar times for a true picture.

For me this is even more important for the 410 as we mortals just can't drive them in anger before making a decision.

But this ramble is from someone very track focused and the road is just to get you there. I just hope your new venture and industry contacts allow you to do some track reviews too. 

[JayEmm]

@LF1 I took the 3-11 out on the same roads I took the 410 on. Lot of camber, quite broken surfaces. I felt with the 3-eleven in that scenario its weight played against it. I felt like I was skipping down the road, and although I didn't have a moment in the car, I suspected one probably wasn't far off. The 3-eleven is built as a track monster, and I suspect when that aero all starts working you will really feel it. But on the road you're not going quick enough to get that aero in play. I felt a little bit of a passenger in it, it was quite an incredible experience none-the-less and I hope to have some more time in future to learn it a bit more, on different surfaces.

I don't see that as a failing at all. The 400/410 are road cars first, with different degrees of track focus. The 3-eleven is a road legal track car. If I had that kind of money spare for a toy, I'd be all over it.

@RJB Yup, PM me for more details. Handbags at dawn

 

[LF1]

And this is kind of my problem with road reviews of cars like this. The 1.6 Elise would frankly be antisocial driven close to the limit on the road. God knows what the you have to do in a 3-11 to be close to a moment? I guess you don't get the luxury of closed roads for testing?

Get them on track

I was interested in this review because of the comparison with the 400. We all know I was not best pleased with the 250 coming out a few months after the 220 but in hindsight most will admit there is bog all difference between them when driven in anger. Not to mention that both will have the ECU nobbled if you want to compete with them in any production class - ours will likely shortly be a 210 Cup

@The Pits I read your comment re top gear calling. Maybe not but I suspect Lotus have a lot to thank you for the attention you got the V6 Cup a few years back (and continue to do). That Silverstone VS GTR certainly was the catalyst for me!

[JayEmm]

The luxury I am afforded when testing these cars is the fact I'm given them at all! Track reviews are something I really hope to do in future, but it is still some way off. I know in a 3-eleven on track I would meet my limits some considerable time before the car did!

[The Pits]

I think James is brave to have a pop at the Sport 410 and different opinions are welcome here despite what some other Lotus forums think. Not much of a forum without different opinions to discuss.

But it might be time to rein it in a bit when you find yourself correcting TLF's founder about Lotus's founder! 

The success of the Elise absolutely kept the lights on at Lotus and it remains the most popular car Lotus ever made.

Time to get back to the 410. The notion that it's just a 400 with stickier tyres and geo tweeks will always be popular with 400 owners but it is as yet unfounded and does the car a considerable injustice.

 

 

[JayEmm]

I think the Carbon stuff is a big draw too @The Pits. A couple of people I know have been drawn to the 410 because of that, and I guess in those cases it is great that Lotus didn't take the 410 too far with regards comfort etc (ignoring the seats, which are a personal preference and changeable). There's literally nothing stopping you using a 410 everyday. Even I'll admit that an Exige, whilst an enormous amount of fun on the move, is a bit tiresome when it comes to maneuvering around a tight car park. Much more so than even the Elise. 410, no problem. I'm not a big fan of the cheapo strut to hold the boot up, but that's a very minor thing.

I'd really love to know the weight figures of what the carbon panels actually save. I suspect most don't, but the boot lid has to save a good amount. 

[Bibs]

Chapman and lightness will go hand in hand forever, you'll struggle to tell anyone otherwise because it was his obsession. If you ever get the chance to read some of his hand written documents, one of them states that a car should last for exactly the length of the race, no more, no less. If it didn't make the end of the race, it was too light and if it lasted longer, it was too heavy. Anything which could do 2 jobs instead of 1 will do 2 jobs, hence the introduction of the engine as a stressed member in the 49, a revolution at the time. Yes, he did try to take the company upmarket as it was a company and needed to make money so he could continue to go racing, but the classier road cars still show the efforts of his performance through lightweight mantra. 

https://www.thelotusforums.com/latest-news/lotus-cars-news/driven-lotus-3-eleven/

I drove the 3-Eleven on road and track. On track, I was amazed after a few laps how much I could lean on it and how confidence inspiring it was. Without David pushing me to push the car, I'd have gone nowhere near those speeds but when I did, it was an eye opener as to how good a track car it is. I also drove to and from the petrol station in Chichester and as the review states, while it's no GT car I found it perfectly compliant on the road for a lightweight 400bhp car and easy to place. 

13 hours ago, JayEmm said:

Terminal Velocity on the 23rd of July, a local event at RAF woodbridge

Is that a 'how fast in a straight' line event? Not sure a single Lotus owner ever bought their car for this reason, you need to compare the cars somewhere with corners, like a race track. Corners are what Lotus are all about, not straight lines. 

[The Pits]

Looks like the negativity is going down very well on your Youtube channel.

As one of your viewers put it: "great to see your honesty as well as your negativity regarding the 410."

And why is everyone more interested in discussing Lotus's business model than the actual Evora Sport 410? Everyone thinks they're Carlos Ghosn these days!

It looks to me like an attempt to court controversy and I think you had it in for the 410 for whatever reason before you even got in the car.

Will any Lotus with an alcantara interior ever get a good review?

 

 

 

[JayEmm]

Oh the 3-eleven was scary simply through the ease with which it could gather pace - no different to some of the McLarens I have driven etc etc... I loved it. Sensational piece of kit and I'd love to go on track with an instructor as @Bibs suggests, I have been out in these types of cars and for mortals like me the speed you carry in corners is unreal

and yes TV is a straight line event, but it would be interesting I think to see what benefit the 410's revised aero and minor power bump bring. Of course I agree corners are where it is at but finding a track to agree to all of this isn't a simple matter. The minute I can make it happen, I gladly will. Like many I would love to see how far Lotus have come, including the old Esprits etc

Edited June 7, 2017 by JayEmm