Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation

[Lotusfab]

Yep, my list of missing parts to make or find is growing. I need two of those nut plates. I seem to recall the frames had thick washers all over. 

[eeyoreish]

1 hour ago, Dan E said:

@eeyoreish you not finished it yet! 

Still busy fixing the Stevens. Spent the day underneath that changing the through chassis coolant pipes ☹️

[TAR]

Fabian, my doors are still complete with windows in. I'll see if I can count the number of shims for you. The doors are buried at the back of the garage so may take a day or so to reach.  

[Fridge]

TBH @Lotusfab I wouldn't beat yourself up about the missing washer thing.

If you've done what I've done, and dismantled the doors completely, let alone the whole car, your diagram will be a starting point only.

I spent 5 hours yesterday assembling one door frame and it went OK. It will no doubt need further adjustment, but will be near for now.

I'm sure you listed them for your S1, they will give you start should you need it.

You're right about the drop glass popping out at the top like. Frustrating, but easily fixed IMO.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Fridge

[Lotusfab]

32 minutes ago, TAR said:

Fabian, my doors are still complete with windows in. I'll see if I can count the number of shims for you. The doors are buried at the back of the garage so may take a day or so to reach.  

Thanks Tim that would be a massive help!

[Lotusfab]

21 minutes ago, Fridge said:

TBH @Lotusfab I wouldn't beat yourself up about the missing washer thing.

If you've done what I've done, and dismantled the doors completely, let alone the whole car, your diagram will be a starting point only.

I spent 5 hours yesterday assembling one door frame and it went OK. It will no doubt need further adjustment, but will be near for now.

I'm sure you listed them for your S1, they will give you start should you need it.

You're right about the drop glass popping out at the top like. Frustrating, but easily fixed IMO.

I thought I had posted numbers as a guide somewhere. I have the drivers door all back together. I had to increase the gap atbthe front of the door to stop the door rubbing on the body. Pretty poor design really. I know from experience you think you have it all done then select the windo to close and it stops about 10 mm before shutting. This little problem took me months last time. I tried everything in the end I decided the motor torque was reduced as the permanent magnets must have lost some magnetism. I bought a new Corvette Delco motor from Atlanta £75. It worked perfectly as the motor had so much more torque! 

[Fridge]

I have a hand drawn diagram, which I think is yours, but I assume for the S1.

Since I cannot post images on TLF I'll email you if it's any help.

Ha ha, you need to some how consolidate or index your thread. This one in particular!

And yes, I know what you mean about the top edge of the door front interfering with the body shell below the 'A' pillar finishing plastic triangle.

What was your solution?

The door just needs raising a tiny fraction.

[drdoom]

Yes, the washers throughout the window frame mountings are notably thick, IIRC.

[Lotusfab]

8 hours ago, Fridge said:

I have a hand drawn diagram, which I think is yours, but I assume for the S1.

Since I cannot post images on TLF I'll email you if it's any help.

Ha ha, you need to some how consolidate or index your thread. This one in particular!

And yes, I know what you mean about the top edge of the door front interfering with the body shell below the 'A' pillar finishing plastic triangle.

What was your solution?

The door just needs raising a tiny fraction.

Hi David, I thought I had photographed that and posted it. I looked for ages and couldn't find it. This is the Turbo washer config for my car. I had such problems with the S1 frame I did this for the Turbo. Thanks David, you just saved me a lot of work. Here it is for everyone else!

note these washers are thicker than the normal penny washers! 

😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

[Fridge]

No problem @Lotusfab

I used it as a guide, as I too lost my own information on the S1.

The washers are indeed thicker, and squared edged compared to penny washers.

Having replaced all fasteners throughout the car, I used stainless steel penny washers.  With care the difference is negligible.

[Andyww]

When multiple shims are used and dont need to be later adjusted, it helps to glue them together with threadlock into one shim.

I started doing this after the first time I removed a front caliper on my F328, they are centred on the disk with packs of thin shims and a pile of shims fell out onto the garage floor!

[Lotusfab]

I have just done the drivers door again, yes I am up early! 6 of the washer I have don't fit on the thread??? It's a mystery. However If I use 5 washers at the front top the window sits away from the seal. So I have used three washers at the front top. Even number in the centre and three at the rear. Looks pretty good but as I said before the proof is the window operation. 

[Andyww]

Yeah, if too few washers either top or bottom the mechanism fouls on the door beam. 

[Fridge]

Looks good.

I'd agree with the weighting spread of washers.

But the proof, as you say, is in the window operation. Fiddly stuff.

[Paul Coleman]

The N/S door glass on my S1 jumps out of the frame at the top and always has. I have solved the problem by guiding it into place and then disconnecting the motor

[Fridge]

Odd that this seems a common trait @Paul Coleman

Sounds like it just needs a tweak.

[Paul Coleman]

16 minutes ago, Fridge said:

Odd that this seems a common trait @Paul Coleman

Sounds like it just needs a tweak.

Probably where the door keeps getting slammed and bends the frame out of shape? It's only a flimsy bit of aluminium extrusion...

[Fridge]

Yes the frames are delicate. Though mine were in good order, but there seems to be a tendancy for them to move outwards away from the tpp corner door rubber, and the top of the drop glass to pop out too.

Took me 5 hours or so adjust. And I'm sure the end isn't finished.

[Lotusfab]

When I built the S1 I got it in pieces. I bought mostly new parts and never saw the originals. I’m in a unique position within this car as I have all of the original parts and have bought new ones to replace them. I can tell everyone the main issues stem from using new parts. They all seem to be different to the originals which is why things don’t work! What is a mystery is why the same shim numbers no longer work on the door frames. I have just taken the door apart and put it back together and it has all changed??.

With respect to the door frame this is why I believe the new parts don’t work. 

Rubber seal

With the original shim numbers the rubber seal no longer contacts the glass at the front. Why,  I believe the clamped part on the new rubber moulding is closer to the glass edge.

The new channel trim for the glass edge I have installed has different dimensions to the original. The glass is held more tightly which results in the window movement being restricted. Curiously there are cutouts in the original channel trim. I believe this is to reduced pinch points where the frame changes direction.

 

[Lotusfab]

4 minutes ago, Fridge said:

Yes the frames are delicate. Though mine were in good order, but there seems to be a tendancy for them to move outwards away from the tpp corner door rubber, and the top of the drop glass to pop out too.

Took me 5 hours or so adjust. And I'm sure the end isn't finished.

That’s one problem. If you put new channel trim in the electric window will probably stick unless you loosen the window guide nuts.. Keep the original parts if at all possible. I have put the original door seal back. The new one causes the door catch to slide under the closing pressure which damages the paint and of course the door won’t shut properly. I’m afraid I would have had to let anyone involved with this door design go! It must have cost Lotus a fortune in manufacturing time and recalls! But of course if I had designed it then it would be genius! 😁😁😁😁😁😁

Notice the rear corner is high on my drivers door. I have to tap the side of the door channel and fit the two bolts to hold it in. I have decided to bolt it all together and do all of these refinements later.

[Fridge]

I find that new parts to any classic are not as straightforward as you might expect. Using original parts, and NOS where they need replacing, is the optimum.

Door rubbers rarely have the same characteristics as the originals. And being new are more resistant. Especially with the improved and more hard wearing materials used in their manufacture.

Personally, I'm not surprised the washers configuration has changed, since everything else has changed if the door has been removed and completely rebuilt. Too many variables.

I used your diagram as a starting guide only. Along with my own photos of mine in disassembly, and other's cars undergoing similar work.

[Fridge]

Your door catch issue.... Remember I suggested using very thin rubber rather than the original sandpaper as an anti-slip method. Rubber doesn't mark the paintwork during this time of adjustment and lateral movement.

Sandpaper is so 1960's.....

[Andyww]

IMHO the overall design of the door is very clever, building the door onto an extruded aluminium door beam which carries the structural parts, ie hinges and catch, combines strength with lightness. Other cars of the era had vastly inferior side impact protection, in fact I dont know how the prancing horses got away with having absolutely none at all. The only thing inside a 308 door is rust.

The problem is everything is so adjustable. I guess they had all kinds of jigs, supports in the factory to shorten assembly time. 

Agree the metal gauze under the striker plate and to a lesser extent the sandpaper under the hinges are shoddy though, my car now has none of those.

I have replaced the channel trims on mine with SJ ones and amazingly they fit! No problems with window movement after lube with some silicone spray.

[Lotusfab]

Here's the original window seal.

Those cuts were already there!

[Lotusfab]

Ok , doors on now tidy the loom at the front and speakers. Then dashboard leather!