anti-roll-bar bushes

[gvy]

Hi all,

I see that SJ-sportscars sells "original" rubber bushes or the two piece polyurethane bushes for the anti-roll-bar to lower link.

There is also a choice for rubber or polyurethane bushes for anti-roll-bar to chassis.

Any comments or preferences or experience on the choise to make here?

Thanks

geert

[Christian43]

Hi

I fitted poly bushes to my brothers S2 based on the fact they are cheaper and I believe the last longer. My Evora seems to go through these bushes at a rate so I figured get the option that will last and is not too expensive to change.

One thing I will say is use Loctite on the bolt or nut (I can't remember if the S2.2 is same as S2 or like S3 in this respect) that locates the bush at the ends of the ARBs. I have had both fixings come loose on different carsl.

BTW the bolts holding the ARB clamps in place where pretty difficult to get undone on the lhs, took a week of heat and plus gas before I could get it loose. Access is pretty poor....

Christian

[peteyg]

I hear the polybushes are stiffer so you'll have a slightly harsher ride. Mine need replacing but I will probably go for original when it come around to it. I think the l pliant ride it the Esprit's strong point so I wouldn't want to make any part of it stiffer.

I'm sure Christian is right with regards to how much longer the polybushes will last though.

Pete

[jcslocum]

I have new bushed to install all around. JAE a parts supplier in the USA says no to poly other than the sway bars.  The poly in the other positions makes the ride too hard and the transferred shock can crack the suspension pieces.

[Mesprit87]

On 1/12/2017 at 21:34, jcslocum said:

I have new bushed to install all around. JAE a parts supplier in the USA says no to poly other than the sway bars.  The poly in the other positions makes the ride too hard and the transferred shock can crack the suspension pieces.

+1 for this, from experience on my brother's GTI, these make for a squeaky car and do put a lot of stress on the structure.

[andydclements]

Depends on the poly bushes in question. Many of the original rubber bushes were metal inner and outer with rubber sandwiched between, whereas the poly equivalent is all poly so has a tougher (higher shore) material but more of it, so overall could be softer or harder than original. Lotus themselves developed poly bushes to replace the originals and were to mimic the original characteristics, but I doubt that any aftermarket supplier has put in any equivalent amount of research to get the same ride characteristics. Original style rubber bushes made now don't even have the same characteristics as the original ones due to the changes in composition to comply with environmental requirements.

[Andyww]

18 hours ago, Mesprit87 said:

+1 for this, from experience on my brother's GTI, these make for a squeaky car and do put a lot of stress on the structure.

There is a type of poly bush sold in North America mainly which is a semi-solid bush which has a rotating part inside the outer. This is pure garbage. Many American Ferrari owners fit these and then wonder why their car starts squeaking and has a hard ride but more body roll. I would imagine after a few years cracks may well develop in the wishbones or forks. These are sacrilege to fit to a Ferrari or Lotus.

But the ARB bushes in question are not these, they are simple pieces of rubber with no metal bonded. 

[krytensmeghead]

I have a 1983 Turbo Esprit and need to change the anti roll bar bushes in the lower control arms.

Is there a way of actually doing this ?

There are 3 fan motors, 2 of which are nearly touching the anti roll bar brackets and they can't be removed without presumably removing the fibreglass cover under the radiator ( necessitating losing the oil from the cooler connections and grinding off some rusty bolts), moving or removing the radiator and cowling, losing the engine coolant - just to get the motors out of the way.

 Alternatively I could try to bend the motor mounts which I'm sure will snap, just like one of the anti roll bar bracket bolts did ( the best place for a tapped hole is on the inside of a nyloc ).

I bought the urethane bushes from SJ.

Sorry about the rant.

[DaKa]

I was lucky enough to buy my car with poly bushes fitted to all the front geometry components.

It makes sense to keep these handling components firm and allow the tyres, springs and shocks to manage the ride comfort - of course made easier if they are adjustable, otherwise you only have tyre pressure to play with.

 

[Andyww]

9 hours ago, krytensmeghead said:

I have a 1983 Turbo Esprit and need to change the anti roll bar bushes in the lower control arms.

Is there a way of actually doing this ?

There are 3 fan motors, 2 of which are nearly touching the anti roll bar brackets and they can't be removed without presumably removing the fibreglass cover under the radiator ( necessitating losing the oil from the cooler connections and grinding off some rusty bolts), moving or removing the radiator and cowling, losing the engine coolant - just to get the motors out of the way.

 Alternatively I could try to bend the motor mounts which I'm sure will snap, just like one of the anti roll bar bracket bolts did ( the best place for a tapped hole is on the inside of a nyloc ).

I bought the urethane bushes from SJ.

Sorry about the rant.

Cant recall having any issues with these other than the purple poly ones being too hard, so that when tightened up the ARB is so firmly mounted to the lower link it cant pivot as its supposed to. On the other hand the service notes suggest the nut should not be completely tightened, but it can come off if this is done, as at least one person here has found.

Cant remember any issues with the fans etc being in the way.

[C43]

I changed the bushes on my 1984 turbo which I think is the same as your 1983 car. I also did it on my brothers S2 which is a slightly different setup. On neither did I have to remove the oil or water coolers. On my brothers S2 I did have to remove the fans at least on one side, on my S3 I think I just had to move the fans forwards slightly by loosening off the clamps. I think I did bend the fan mounts on one car but can't remember which. BTW I placed cardboard on the reverse side of the water radiator so I did not damage it when trying to get the anti roll bar out. BTW take photos as it is possible to get the anti roll bar upside down and the wrong side of the trackrods which means taking the whole lot to pieces again (I did this!).

On both it is a bit fiddly but not an epic. The real pain is how rusty the main mounting bolts are and how poor the access to one side is (can't remember which). Sounds like you have already met these though! Oh and it was mine that came loose hence I would recommend Loctite on the bolt / nut on the end of the anti roll bar.

 Good luck, the change should sharpen up the front end. BTW I am now working with a guy who has done a lot of development for Ford, Jaguar and Maserarti on suspension bushes and his feeling was the polybushes would be fine for the ARB and would not transmit a lot of road vibration. 

cheers

Christian

[Andyww]

On 29/10/2017 at 07:57, DaKa said:

I was lucky enough to buy my car with poly bushes fitted to all the front geometry components.

It makes sense to keep these handling components firm and allow the tyres, springs and shocks to manage the ride comfort - of course made easier if they are adjustable, otherwise you only have tyre pressure to play with.

 

There is a good write-up on why this is not the case in the 9th post down on here:

 

[krytensmeghead]

Thanks Guys,

I bought the purple polyurethane bushes from SJ Sportscars part no. SJ075C0008 .

I just had a look at them and they seem quite soft compared to other urethane bushes I've seen in the past so hopefully they will be compliant enough.

Interesting info in the post noted by Andy.

Regarding the fan motors, if I push the motor forward so it touches the radiator I have about 12mm clearance from the anti roll bar bracket.

Since the anti roll bar looks like it needs to move at least 50mm to come out of the lower control arms I can't see a way of changing the bushes so I opted to remove the radiator / fan assembly and refurbish the whole area. It's pretty much the last part of the car that needs fixing. ( probably just jinxed myself there ).

[molemot]

I've changed the anti roll bar bushes on my 1982 turbo twice, now...and didn't touch the fans or radiator or oil cooler at all. Did use a hefty ratchet tie down strap to get the end of the bar positioned for re-assembly... Not sure how I did it, but I think I undid everything on one side...bush to lower link and the chassis one too...then a bit of pulleyheavey and I got the bar out of the lower link. Make sure you get the washers the right way round, there's a chamfer to contend with...then I did the other side. IIRC once you have the thing undone it tilts so that you can get it out...

[910Esprit]

On 01/11/2017 at 12:06, krytensmeghead said:

Since the anti roll bar looks like it needs to move at least 50mm to come out of the lower control arms I can't see a way of changing the bushes so I opted to remove the radiator / fan assembly and refurbish the whole area. It's pretty much the last part of the car that needs fixing. ( probably just jinxed myself there ).

Unless your car is non standard, or in some other way damaged, there should be plenty of clearance.   I put axle stands under each of the uprights, this still allows the roll bar to drop vertically out of the way of the cross member (after removing the 4 bolts from the 'U' brackets).   the nuts at the end of the ARB can then be removed from the lower links to allow the bar to be removed and all bushes to be replaced    

[krytensmeghead]

If the U brackets could drop down I think there would be enough clearance. So only the 2 stays going to the radiator support would have to be removed.

I have the front of the car supported by the chassis cross member so it looks like I will have to lift the suspension to relieve the loading on the anti roll bar.

I decided to remove the radiator section anyway so I can refurbish it. ( I may be able to sell some of the bolts as relics from the Titanic )

I also have to remove the broken bolt in one of the U brackets.

[C43]

good luck with getting that broken bolt out, is it sheared off in the chassis?

[krytensmeghead]

18 hours ago, C43 said:

good luck with getting that broken bolt out, is it sheared off in the chassis?

Yes.

I got the first one out and it felt like the second one was turning but only the hexagon was.

I thought I'd try without a gas torch because of the rubber mounts right next to it and the wiring to the fan motors.

I also didn't want to melt the galvanizing.

I could try drilling it out which requires the radiator not to be there, but I'm thinking of just cutting the 4 tubes out between the C section and replacing them, possibly with a piece of flat bar that fills the C section, or 4 pieces of round bar.

I'd really rather redesign the mount so it can have nylocs instead of tapped holes but the anti roll bar has washers welded to it so I can't change the mount position even slightly.

I'll have another look on the weekend.

At least one of the other two mounting bolts is about to snap as well.

[C43]

Hi

now the head has come off the bolt it should not take much torque to remove it at all (they normally come out really easily). If it was me I would suggest Plus Gaz and on and off with a hot air gun whilst you are waiting. Then in England we have a tool called an Eze Out that works really well but you could just drill it and use a left hand tap and bolt. One thing you will need for either of these it to drill an accurate hole down the middle of the bolt. By memory the bolt is about M10 so I would suggest get a drill bush for 5mm drill and use this to get an accurate hole down the middle. Take your time drilling it out, this is the secret to success. 

I still think you can get that bolt out.

good luck

Christian

[krytensmeghead]

The first bolt I got out I had to fight all the way. It looks like 1/2" BSW but I didn't measure it.

The entire length of the thread was rusty. A bit deceiving as all the galvanizing is in great condition.

I could try an ezy out. Nice idea about using a bush to centre the drill.

There's at least 1 more bolt that's already twisted.

What is Plus Gaz ?

 

[Andyww]

Bummer. I reckon they must have tapped these holes after it came back from galvanising so they are bare steel inside. The PO of my car had to drill and re-tap these and fit larger bolts because the threads came out with the bolts!

[C43]

Plus Gaz is a good equivalent to WD40 in the UK, its a penetration oil. Find the best penetrating oil you can over there. Some are definitely better than others.

I agree with you comment on using a flame but a decent hot air gun can be very effective.

I had a real battle with these bolts on my brothers S2, it was just a case of taking my time and lots of penetrating oil.

cheers

Christian

[krytensmeghead]

OK, I managed to get the bolts out and break only 1 more bolt. They are M12 x 1.75.

I have a jack under each lower control arm taking all the weight and a platform under the chassis for safety.

I used a wind proof BBQ lighter ( miniature gas torch ) on the tubes that had the bolts in them. Also tapped the bolt head left & right which helped loosen them a bit.

I undid the nylocs in the lower control arms as much as I could before removing the bolts. ( more heat )

Managed to drill through the centre of the 2 broken bolts and get them out, starting with a 4mm drill and spraying WD40 through the bolt to the inside of the tube. Gradually increased drill sizes and kept checking to make sure I wasn't drilling into the thread, then cleaned out the threads with a tap so it's all original. I'll be using spring washers and " Never sieze " when re assembling.

As Christian stated above it's possible to reinstall the ARB upside down and looking at the angle of the bar in the lower control arm I suspect that's what the previous owner did.

I did take a photo but it's not a very good view and doesn't show it clearly enough to post here. With all the weight on the springs the bar seems it would only be parallel to the holes in the lower control arms if the U brackets were about 2 inches lower.

Not sure if this is the case so I'll be looking on line for more pics of the setup. Thanks Christian for mentioning this.

[tonytransam]

Joining this thread a little late and just trying to understand how to change the lower link anti roll bar bushes, as my 84 Turbo failed its MOT today. You just undo the four front Bush nuts and the bar pulls forward out of the the lower links? Do you need to undo the nuts at the end of the antiroll bar for it to pull forward? They look like a sod to get access to in situ! Are you supposed to undo them through the little hole at the back of the lower link, it looks too small.

Edited September 20, 2019 by tonytransam

[Smithy111]

You need to get the trunnion undone and out of the way so you can get on the nut with an open ended spanner if i recall correctly, do you not have the service notes?