General Election - 8 June 2017

[Gashead1105]

Clearly my maths is deficient, because when I add up 262+35+12+1 I get 310. I mean, that's obviously in correct because Jez won a majority of 650 seats, and is definitely more than 318. I blame my education. An alliance with the DUP is essential on that basis. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by Gashead1105

[franjipane]

@Gashead1105 you're gonna need more fingers and toes for those sums.

[Barrykearley]

I can't see the issue with a minority government frankly. In the EU it's far more commonplace to have a hung parliament.

id like to see the whole lot of them ousted. A proper revolution and some real representation for the working man. I feel marginalised and a minority in my own country frankly 

[Gashead1105]

can you help then @franjipane? All I've been hearing today is that Jez has won a great victory, will be presenting his queens speech and is expecting to form a government. Admittedly I've been quaffing champagne with Polly and Owen this afternoon.

[franjipane]

A minority government could be just what we need, MPs actually having to put a proper case forward for issues and none of this bloody childlike filibustering. I'm fine with it too, i just don't want it to be with the DUP!

[Barrykearley]

I agree - the dup link is much the same as JC and his terrorist sympathising rose tinted spectacle views.

they should not have done the deal. JC would not have been able to form a government anyway especially with the Scottish witch being smacked back into her box

[franjipane]

@Gashead1105 not sure who Owen or Polly are, but in case you missed the results due to champagne overdose, May has won. But it was disastrous for the Tories and a great comeback for Labour. Anyone who says it was a victory for labour is obviously not talking about the number of seats. At the same time, anyone who doesn't recognise that the Tories are utterly screwed has their head in the sand.  Any other questions?

[Barrykearley]

The labour result was good to be fair. But let's not loose sight of how bad the Tory campaign was. It was disgusting, ridiculous and frankly contemptuous. 

Not exactly difficult for a party offering hope and free unicorns to make an electoral surge when compared with a house stealing, kids diner stealing, tax dodging, fox murdering proposal

[franjipane]

Agreed!

By the way, on the whole JC IRA thing can we put that to rest please, he was not and never has been a sympathiser in the same way the DUP have.

He said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/05/no-jeremy-corbyn-did-not-refuse-condemn-ira-please-stop-saying-he-did

Once and for all folks, JC is not a sympathiser no matter what tabloid you read it in. they're making shit up.

[franjipane]

Here's that interview! he does have funny eyes but yea it's clear he talked to all parties to achieve peace and it worked right?!  Heck i remember hearing the IRA bombs out of my window in London!

 

[Barrykearley]

JC is a career politician. Drop out rebel whom relished in the Maggie days of rebellion. Yes he has now grown up a bit - and he can string along a concept which almost sounds ok. But let's not get too excited - on paper communism is a brilliant system as is socialism - the reality is somewhat different.

he did without doubt back in the day have sympathies for the IRA and it's cause. Please remember one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist 

[franjipane]

Ok so show me where that was the case. A video or something verifiable would be good rather than  something a tabloid paper has written.

[Barrykearley]

Mate those photos and videos are long buried - the BBC wouldn't even have Martin mcguiness on tv for years and had a filming ban on him. Should you really wish to verify - then you should be able to find ex service personnel whom would vouch for his whereabouts at IRA funerals - and that's not made up by the papers

[ramjet]

I'm not going to ask who goes for who, because that will just turn into a bunfight to end all bunfights.

I hope it all works out for you in the UK and that it doesn't make a mess of things.

I haven't followed it closely enough to know who stands for what.

[Barrykearley]

It really won't matter...... the establishment is being puppeteered and Brexit will be derailed or delayed as long as possible.

whoever we have in charge - it's gonna be a really messy couple of years

[franjipane]

Aye it's going to be messy, I don't think it had to be but too many egos in play. We're all gonna suffer a bit for it. Hopefully with as much positivity as the JC campaign

 

[C8RKH]

@franjipane you ain't been reading my posts fully. I am not a "toryboy" at heart, I actually think about who I vote for and why, rather than just follow what I, my family, friends, have always done. But then you read what you want.  The DUP or the SNP. Hmmm, tough choice. Wouldn't want either to be honest but do think if we want the best Brexit deal then the Tories will do better than labour. 

I've said before I thought Corbyn ran a good campaign, but then, it was a very "popular" give away campaign in general. And even as you and many others have said, the Tory campaign was terrible and really bad and here's the big thing. CORBYN STILL LOST!  OK, he did not win. Can we just get that straight please. The awful, crap and shit campaign of May still gave her the most seats by what was it, 59 in the end?

 

1 hour ago, franjipane said:

A minority government could be just what we need, MPs actually having to put a proper case forward for issues and none of this bloody childlike filibustering. I'm fine with it too, i just don't want it to be with the DUP!

Hasn't worked well in Scotland. Go and do some reading up on how it is has fooked things up here. Do think it is a bit rich JC telling anyone to resign when he refused to how many times when asked?  Ho hum, I guess he was smiling when he said No so it was all OK then.

[franjipane]

I read your posts. And your new post is mostly ranting. You haven't answered my question about the dup.

And what will the Tories do for you for brexit? No deal sounding good for you?

[C8RKH]

@franjipane I would not say that last post was ranting at all. I did answer your DUP question in that I said a lot earlier I would rather NOT have an alliance with them. However, I will answer the question here for your directly, or at least the question I think you are asking as actually you have mostly been making statements.

Do I want or look forward to a UK Government having a supply and confidence deal with the DUP?  (note, there is no talk of a coalition and that is a different deal altogether. Supply and Confidence is a "vote by vote deal" not a defacto we agree to support each other on everything). 

Short Answer:  

Yes.

Long Answer:

I believe that what the UK needs right now is for a government to be formed that can quickly get on with the business of Government. For that to happen, the Tories, who, quite frankly given the fact they won over 20% more seats and polled more individual votes than the party who was the first loser, are the only party that has legitimacy right now to seek to form a government. In seeking to get a majority the winning party has very few choices:

Labour: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

SNP: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

Libs: Have made it clear they will not form a tactical or strategic alliance with the Tories

DUP: Have made it clear, and have worked in the past with the Tories, that would consider a deal

Greens: Irrelevant

UKIP: Don't exist

So given the choices available, I support the Tories seeking to form a minority government with the DUP, under a supply and confidence dea,l as it allows us to meet our obligations to open up negotiations for Brexit. It keeps our current negotiating team in place and so this reduces any further disruption and chaos to the process. This has to be a good thing for the people of the UK.  As an aside, and has already been discussed now, this makes a more hard line Brexit less likely, which has to be good for those people in the UK who have not yet accepted the democratic will of the people through last years referendum.

If in making that deal they have to formally support DUP policies around abortion and gay rights, then that would change my stance. However, as far as I know the main ask is going to be around an "open border" with Ireland AND NI and I am not aware of anyone who is against that. Yet again though, before any details are announced, we have people, mainly on the left, creating their placards and demonstrating against something they believe MIGHT happen but do not actually know IF it will happen.  

For me personally, I also think this is better. I never really wanted us to pull out of the Trade Agreement, however, I did not believe, and still do not believe, in the carte blanche right for "freedom of movement".  I have always thought, and wanted, that a deal on freedom of movement could be done. The deal I wanted was a simple one, and I believe is a very fair one, that would be acceptable to the majority in the UK and in the EU - the deal should be, and the terminology is very important, "the right for freedom to move for WORK"!  You see I have never had a problem with immigration per se, and certainly I have many posts on here and elsewhere where I call out the numerous benefits of immigration over the last 100 years or so. What I do object to, is people coming here from other parts of Europe, with no job lined up, nor NO MEANS to support themselves, and EXPECTING, and in some cases demanding, to receive benefits, handouts and housing.  This to me is just wrong. It also creates a system where the immigrant is open to ruthless exploitation from individuals and businesses who make a considerable amount of money out of their suffering.  The two main issues I have with this "freedom to roam" policy then are:

1. The concept that you can roam anywhere and expect the local tax payer to bail you out (I have this same fundamental issue with people who want top pursue the "traveller" lifestyle. They bang on about their right for somewhere to camp, and their rights to follow their lifestyle as they see fit, pay no taxes, etc. Then when they have finished they just fook off and leave the locals to pay for with cash sweat the clearing up of the mess after them). This situation is not acceptable to me. Neither is it acceptable to me that someone who comes here from Europe can then claim child benefit from the UK tax payer for a child who is not in, and probably has never set foot in, the UK!  It's just wrong.  We are not talking about refugees or asylum seekers here. These are people from the EU who CHOSE to move of their own free will.

2. I have an issue with the way the EU has failed to ensure fairness with UK citizens who live (retire or work) in the EU.  We have all heard for instance of the stories where usually retired UK people have had their homes demolished and repossessed in Spain. Where basic medical care that should be free under the reciprocal agreements we are supposed to have in the EU are systematically ignored and abused by Spanish, French and other hospitals and doctors and where payment is demanded up front before treatment DESPITE this not being lawful under EU rules.  This is one of the issues that led me to believe the Labour Party and others were naive in their desire to offer "freedom" to the EU nationals here, before we had a reciprocal deal for our own in the EU.  By banging on about how we would guarantee their rights, before securing anything similar for our own, we have failed and did fail to ensure that as a nation we were protecting OUR citizens.  But then, the EU has been good at doing that for a long time. Look at how NO ACTION has been taken over Spain's bullying of Gibraltarians.

So there you go a @franjipane you have a clear and direct and full answer to your question re the DUP - do I support it and my justifications for my decision.

Maybe you'd like to go back through your own rantings and the numerous sound bites and now come back with your own clear and direct and full answers to the many questions you have been posed   If anyone has been a little ranty and shouty, I believe it is the fans of the team who despite scoring goals at the election, where still the first losers in the cup final   I'm a long time LFC fan, I know what it is like to make good out yet another disappointing season with a trophy less cabinet, despite putting on a good show.

One last point. It seems to me that democracy is dying in the UK. That really scares the shit out of me.  The new politics of the young and the left is that if they do not get the answer THEY want, then they demonise, mobilise, agitate and protest until they force their will!  That is a very dangerous road and a perilous journey down it that we are embarking on.

 

[C8RKH]

I think this stance and game by Corbyn is just so wrong on so many levels, but willing to hear and understand peoples points of view. On one hand, Corbyn is all about listening to the voice of the people. But when the people do not vote for him, he decides the best course of action is to just let politicians decide the winner?  This goes against his whole stand re Brexit etc and just shows to me, in my little simple mind, he is just as power obsessed and hungry as any other politician and yet again it is about him, not the Labour Party or the common voter. Thoughts?

From the BBC's Andrew Marr Sunday morning show and website:

"Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says he can "still be prime minister" as he aims to thwart Theresa May's attempt to run a minority government.

Labour will set out its own programme for government as an amendment to the Queen's Speech, focusing on austerity and a "jobs-first Brexit," he says.

He told the BBC's Andrew Marr he would invite MPs to back his policies instead of the ones set out by Theresa May."

[Barrykearley]

It's a joke of a situation. May should just have a minority government and be done with it.

good policies like increasing basic tax allowances would get through - stealing free school meals from children would not. Win win position frankly

[Inkyfingers]

So all the policies that involve spending more money would get through, and the ones that might save some cash wouldn't. How's that going to work in the long term?

I think that if we weren't about to start Brexit talks, a minority government might just about work, but think right now a majority (however small) is probably essential.

[Barrykearley]

Austerity hasn't worked frankly. We need investment, infrastructure, housing etc - the list goes on. Until we invest in the future - the futures only going to be more expensive and bleak.

every single year we are spending more and more no matter what. Benefits need ruthlessness especially with folks who just won't work - and there's hundreds of thousands of those. The financial stats are twisted with this lot. 

Businesses need to pay tax on revenue in this country. Brexit can just fall back on wto rules. I just dunno what all the fuss is about

[franjipane]

Really well put post @C8RKH I'm in the middle of loads of Sunday diy stuff so can't reply now, not sure I need to really I respect and understand your point of view more now even though I differ on some points, while agreeing with some of the more pragmatic ones.

Agree Barry we need investment yes!

[clivef38]

I dont care at the moment who is in charge as they are  all out for themselves.Lets get out of Europe and then sort ourselves out. Five years from now we can chose again. I can hardly wait.