New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[JayEmm]

@C8RKH if you look at McLaren residual values, they are awful. Lotus are best in the business. Part of that is due to a lot of wariness about McLaren reliability etc etc...

Somehow, they get that bit very, very right.

The shame is (and something Lotus need to sort) is that finance houses don't understand that, so many Lotus cars I've tried to talk people into are coming up WAY too expensive on the usual finance deals most people go for. Usually because the residual value given is total pish.

[marcfair]

37 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Give them a chance to get settled in

Yep that's what I said

[Spinney]

I too would be pretty pissed off if I had as many issues as your 410 appears to have done Jon and sincerely hope everything is sorted to your satisfaction. I've owned more Lotus cars, of all types, than I care to remember over the last 50 years and, as you can imagine, during that time I've had some real lemons. Maybe I've just been fortunate since then, but the most recent two over the last 9 years have been among the most reliable cars I've ever owned and that includes comparison with all the usual high end German makes. 

I do think Lotus have actually done remarkably well to produce the cars they have in recent years, given their precarious position and limited resources. Having said that, there is no excuse for poor quality control and it is an area I feel very confident the Chinese will resolve. For the first time since buying these cars all those years ago, I finally have real hope Lotus Cars have a bright future and, again, for the first time ever, some serious investment to achieve it.

They will get there, of that I am more convinced than ever.

[C8RKH]

What pisses me off the most about all of this is that many of the issues are with parts that Lotus buy in like the Carbon panels - so the questions should be:

1. What is the QC process of the parts manufacturers? And why are they letting shit sub standard parts through THEIR QC's and on to Lotus?

2. What is Lotus doing not properly examining and then rejecting faulty / sub standard parts before they get near the protection line and then actually fitting/using them?

3. What the hell are dealers, as the interface to the market and the representatives of Lotus to the customer, doing not properly inspecting their cars to pick up the issues BEFORE they get near the customer?

So, actually, there are three failure points there, 1 of which is Lotus.

[JayEmm]

Hit the nail on the head there Andy.

I must say the carbon issues surprise me. All of the cars I have seen have had impeccable carbon, to the point that I think I mention it in every single video. Even in the ones where I'm not a fan of some of the carbon, the quality is undeniable.

I hope that is an isolated incident and gets quickly resolved. I know some early 400s had HVAC issues too but I thought that was long fixed by the time the 410 was being made.

[PhilT]

9 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

What pisses me off the most about all of this is that many of the issues are with parts that Lotus buy in like the Carbon panels - so the questions should be:

1. What is the QC process of the parts manufacturers? And why are they letting shit sub standard parts through THEIR QC's and on to Lotus?

2. What is Lotus doing not properly examining and then rejecting faulty / sub standard parts before they get near the protection line and then actually fitting/using them?

3. What the hell are dealers, as the interface to the market and the representatives of Lotus to the customer, doing not properly inspecting their cars to pick up the issues BEFORE they get near the customer?

So, actually, there are three failure points there, 1 of which is Lotus.

I would like to add - my Europa was 45 YO in Jan 18, and I've run it for 22 of those years - failures of Lotus manufactured components = ZERO (inc. chassis)...outsourced parts - lost count...last 22 yrs parts are coming from where...China? - maybe...for sure NOT Geely😬

[pete757]

I had the pleasure and enjoyment of doing the 'Factory Tour' last week. One thing that DID strike me was the attention to detail that the workers seemed to be putting into each car at the various assembly stages I saw. After the paint shop, there were about 3 people looking very carefully at the finish, including the installed carbon bits, under very bright florescent lights. They seemed very focused on getting at least that part right!

My MY14 Sports Racer has been a brilliant experience to have bought. It is as tight as a drum, no squeaks or rattles, no leaking boot, not a blemish or mark on the glossy black roof. Given it was one of the last ones made, perhaps it just a continual process of refinement...

 

But this does still not excuse JB's problems. I certainly also think it is more than reasonable to expect a loan car and also a clear 'time line' about when the issues will be rectified... Hope you get it sorted soon... 🙄

[tim_marra]

22 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

What pisses me off the most about all of this is that many of the issues are with parts that Lotus buy in like the Carbon panels - so the questions should be:

1. What is the QC process of the parts manufacturers? And why are they letting shit sub standard parts through THEIR QC's and on to Lotus?

2. What is Lotus doing not properly examining and then rejecting faulty / sub standard parts before they get near the protection line and then actually fitting/using them?

3. What the hell are dealers, as the interface to the market and the representatives of Lotus to the customer, doing not properly inspecting their cars to pick up the issues BEFORE they get near the customer?

So, actually, there are three failure points there, 1 of which is Lotus.

No. As a customer all three examples above are Lotus. I'd like to think Lotus also accept responsibility otherwise customers will look elsewhere.

[scotty435]

8 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Taken from Top Ger mags review of the McLaren 570S Spider V R8 and MG GT and could have been written about a Lotus Evora 410!!!

 

"The McLaren suffers no such ergonomic clangers, besides taking practice to scramble in and out of, but suffers the usual frozen touchscreen, disobedient windows, a dodgy noselift and narcoleptic parking sensors. £227k, as tested, with all the carbon trimmings? Hmm.

The McSpider has a simple question for you. Is your priority driving? If ‘yes’, it’s tough to fault the McLaren. Its steering communicates so purely about the surface, the grip and your proximity to its limits."

 

As much as I feel sorry for Jonny and his ongoing problem. The one thing this thread as shown me is that McLaren produce far more expensive cars, that break down more than lotus's, there QC is as bad as Lotus, don't drive as good as a lotus and there salesmen are total plonkers as mentioned in a other thread, there residuals are shocking. so it's not all bad at Lotus, yes there is room for improvement especially in Jonny's situation. Never felt so positive for Brand, but there will always be doubters no matter how much the company improves.

[Bibs]

I know a good number of people with a Macca, I know very few who would buy another. 

[Spinney]

8 hours ago, Bibs said:

I know a good number of people with a Macca, I know very few who would buy another. 

Having driven that 570S recently, I believe once the novelty of the brutal acceleration has worn off a bit, you really are left with a car that is no more pleasurable to drive on the roads, than a Lotus - and you would be c.£50k lighter!

This is a bit of a generalisation but if you were to look at the owner demographic of both marques, I'd be willing to bet the majority of McLaren owners are just wealthy guys who can indulge themselves in the latest toy, whereas the majority of Lotus owners are most likely driving enthusiasts. For me, it's almost like knowing a secret the wider public are completely unaware of. That general perception may, of course, change once Geely have the bit firmly between their teeth and take the marque more upmarket, but I sincerely hope they still keep driving dynamics at the forefront.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Spinney

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

8 hours ago, Bibs said:

I know a good number of people with a Macca, I know very few who would buy another. 

Fernando Alonso springs to mind. 

[Simon Bateman]

Having also been to the factory, my own view is that the QC is probably up to the job, but the constraints placed on those individuals by senior management means that the line between ok and not ok is often not as stringent as it should be and I'm sure this is frustrating for the guys at the factory when they have to put their name to something that clearly needs extra work.

In terms of outsourced components, it's even worse in some ways, particularly in the case of a carbon roof, because Prodrive have vast experience of carbon fibre on road cars and on the Aston endurance racing side of things.  It's unforgivable that not only has this slipped under the QC net by them, but also by Lotus.  In fairness however to Lotus, maybe the usual quality is so good on the CF products that they have been a bit complacent in their own quality control for that type of item and assumed it would be up to the usual standard.

As for McLaren........I certainly had the opinion that you were buying into an almost laboratory standard product, assembled by artisans to an incredibly high standard, whereas in reality they do appear to have numerous issues.

A personal friend with a 720 has gone and continues to go through numerous challenges with his launch edition car and is now starting to feel like he's the last phase of testing for the vehicle, including a recent recovered breakdown bought on by what can only be described as enthusiastic driving.

I now smile when I read a lot of this BS about only having a Toyota 'Camry' engine instead of a McLaren own designed engine, when everyone knows it's a Ricardo design based on an existing Nissan platform and is proving to be not quite as durable when stressed as people would have hoped.

Having come from Chocolate Porsche engines, I'm more than happy in the knowledge that the engine in the back of my Evora is a no compromise, tough and proven Japanese designed unit, that appears to happily take in it's stride whatever you throw at.

It's also quite Ironic last weekend that Alonso had to ditch his McLaren for a Toyota, so he could win a race again 😀

 

[m1980k]

It's no surprise that young car manufacturers like McLaren and Tesla are suffering teething problems. Mass producing reliable cars is an incredibly difficult task. Especially when you're trying to produce something that is even more advanced than established competitors.

Agree with the comments re not spending enough time on QC being a daft thing for Lotus to do. If you don't get something right the first time, you will aggravate your customer and it will cost more money to put right than the little bit of extra QC on 10 or 100 cars would have cost. And if you're in the business of constantly upselling to existing customers with limited editions and incremental updates, treat those people well!

For what it's worth, my 2012MY Evora S hasn't missed a beat in the four or so weeks I've owned it

[C8RKH]

21 hours ago, tim_marra said:

No. As a customer all three examples above are Lotus. I'd like to think Lotus also accept responsibility otherwise customers will look elsewhere.

You missed my point.

[tim_marra]

Don't think so. Lotus arrange/pay for all three examples you quote, and as such the ultimate responsibility is theirs, not the suppliers.

When you buy your car you get one invoice, from Lotus. I would accept your point(s) if the customer (i.e. you or me) invoice was payable to each supplier.

[C8RKH]

Really? My new 410 Sport came with the invoice from the dealer. The dealer is also responsible for the pre-delivery inspection where many of these things should be captured BEFORE it gets to the customer.  The dealer is the "agent" and you buy from the "agent" not direct from Lotus unless of course you do the deal direct with the factory.

[PhilT]

21 hours ago, scotty435 said:

As much as I feel sorry for Jonny and his ongoing problem. The one thing this thread as shown me is that McLaren produce far more expensive cars, that break down more than lotus's, there QC is as bad as Lotus, don't drive as good as a lotus and there salesmen are total plonkers as mentioned in a other thread, there residuals are shocking. so it's not all bad at Lotus, yes there is room for improvement especially in Jonny's situation. Never felt so positive for Brand, but there will always be doubters no matter how much the company improves.

my personal experience says this is true...but its a double edged sword story - my brake pedal went to the floor not so long ago😱, but Strattons organised a nice, well known, recovery company man, to come and pick my car up and take it away and sort things out (many thanks Tim Hutchins👍). Here's the thing - the transporter that arrived was a serious piece of stealth mode looking kit! Financial justification for said expenditure on a fleet of the worlds best low loaders...not due to Lotus, but...

[tim_marra]

12 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Really? My new 410 Sport came with the invoice from the dealer. The dealer is also responsible for the pre-delivery inspection where many of these things should be captured BEFORE it gets to the customer.  The dealer is the "agent" and you buy from the "agent" not direct from Lotus unless of course you do the deal direct with the factory.

You missed my point.

[2GOOD]

3 minutes ago, PhilT said:

my personal experience says this is true...but its a double edged sword story - my brake pedal went to the floor not so long ago😱, but Strattons organised a nice, well known, recovery company man, to come and pick my car up and take it away and sort things out (many thanks Tim Hutchins👍). Here's the thing - the transporter that arrived was a serious piece of stealth mode looking kit! Financial justification for said expenditure on a fleet of the worlds best low loaders...not due to Lotus, but...

On Time or the Alcoholic Anonymous lot?

[C8RKH]

Nope - you said "when you buy your car you get one invoice from Lotus".  Totally wrong and factually incorrect. So what was your point?  What do you not understand about how the car industry works and the role of manufacturers and their dealers or agents?

[tim_marra]

Oh dear, do you want a bigger spade?

Yes I said Lotus rather than the dealer franchise. My mistake. How about the 2 of three points you got wrong, or do you not recognise irony?

[C8RKH]

I'm sorry @tim_marra you've lost me here - you quote the wrong thing, then say it was a mistake then ask if I want a spade? WTF planet are you on? I might not understand irony but you obviously have no understanding of simple logic or facts. I

What two points did I get wrong? The fact that the manufacturers of the parts should do good QC BEFORE they send parts to Lotus? Or the fact that the Dealer should step up and also do a good QC before they hand the car over to the customer?  Neither of these are Lotus. But if you combine the three (manufacturer, Lotus and dealer) into a proper end to end QC process you will reduce the issues that get through to customers and surely that is the aim game. But, it does require all three to do their bit.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make here, your just coming across to me as a muppet (but then I may be to you so hey ho) as I'm obviously devoid of the capability to understand irony and your logic so I'll bow out.

 

To get back on topic I will say that my 410 performed great last night when I took her out for a wee drive just to de stress after a hard, long day.  I still find the speed at which she gathers pace on the public road quite alarming - hugely fun - but oh my god she gets up to speed so quickly.  My NA I think was a better "fun" proposition on the road. My 410 is a weapon the road. Looking forward to getting a set of Jonny's new brackets for the seats when they are available and have some ideas re how I will finish them.

[tim_marra]

I'll leave it for anyone else (who may give a toss) to decide who is correct or otherwise.

Your pathetic name calling (twice now!) does not help your case btw 

[C8RKH]

Oh, now who doesn't get the irony and has had a sense of humour failure? Have a good day Tim.

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

your just coming across to me as a muppet (but then I may be to you so hey ho)