One In The Eye For The Anti 4x4 Brigade

[Tentenths]

One of the East Anglian Pistonheads guys saw this yesterday

Class

[esprit350]

like it !!! want one for our 4x4 less the horse bit please

[USAndretti42]

Nice

[SMAC67]

Just to be awkward I gotta say that I have never heard of anyone complaining about 4x4's in the countryside. Certainly plenty of complaints from people in our crowded, narrow, towns and cities. I think the argument is the appropriateness of the vehicle driven. Chris Eubank for instance drives around Brightons narrow streets in his Kenworth big rig. Now, if everyone in Brighton did the same it would take about three nano seconds for their to be gridlock.

However most 4x4's are not bought by farmers or landowners but suburbanites. Most vehicles are used in terms of the local area and so 4x4's are used for running errands, shopping dropping kids off etc...

It is often argued that 4x4's are safe but the statistics and NCAP tests seem to prove otherwise. Sensible large vehicles are available but I suspect most people select cars as a way defining themselves within the heirarchy of society.

Otherwise, people would choose the cheapest, or best value vehicle. I don't think any 4x4 can be described as good value.

A mate of mine borrowed another mate of mines Porsche Cayenne whilst he was vacationing for two weeks. After 24 hours with the car he had to stop driving it because, in his own words, "I'm driving like a twat and I'll probably kill myself."

Now the question raised is this, was he driving badly beacuse he was in a 4x4, or simply he had turned into a Porsche driver?

Anyway, I think the whole argument will become academic sooner rather than later as the main constraint on car use is the availability of cheap fuel. I suspect that fuel prices will soon be echoing that of the property market.

So, in conclusion, 4x4's are fine within the context of their use, it's just that a lot of people are buying them when other cars would be more appropriate.

If you want a demonstratio of the chaos caused by large cars and small roads feel free to visit me and we can watch the mums and dads 100 yards along the road at our local school. Top entertainment.

Stuart

p.s. my mates dad owns a combine harvester, I would love to see him take it on the school run...he is a farmer so would it be ok?

[Advantage]

Not bovvered

[Kimbers]

Stuart,

Sounds like the tree huggers have got to you with their misinformed drivel!

I have nothing against you so don't take this personally but what utter Tosh!! I live in the country and yet dimwitted greens bothered me in a new 4x4 CRV the other day while I was filling up with diesel. After a minute or so of abuse from flowery clothed, greasy haired studenty types in their soft top Morris Minor (yes really) I wondered over and spoke to them.

"Whats your problem?" I asked. "You posh basteds in your 4x4's polluting the air" was the reply.

I smiled and said "Is this about the fact that I have more money and therefore something nicer than you or is it really about the enviroment? Because my CRV puts out less CO2 than that mini over there, that Mondeo and yes, substantially less than that pile of crap your driving which has no CAT or emission controls and just about doubles what my modern car does. Incidently I also get 45mpg out of mine and I suspect from your sour look that you get about half that. What I suggest is that you retire from abusing people who work for a living to buy themselves a nice car and instead concentrate on getting heaps of Sh*t like yours off the road and saving the enviroment that way.....only you won't do that because all you green supporting morons (pointed at the vote green sticker on his car) drive around in piles of crap polluting the enviroment and don't want anyone to know about it.......Good day!"

You know what I'd love to do this all day! Drive around cities putting polluting bsted stickers on all Mini's, etc just like they do in London. Bring it on!!

[Advantage]

I've just replaced my old crunchy Range Rover with a new shiny one.

I think I might take the cats off.

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

Well said Tony!

I'd have loved to have seen his mud covered, hemp bedecked face!

'kin 'ippies Pop science worshipping ignorami.

It's class war pure and simple. The mere fact the lad came out with that "posh" comment proves it all. I used to hang around with these sort of people - Class War reading, Crass and Conflict listening, Lock glueing, body disinterring, shower dodging freaks. They are not the sharpest customers, not hugely rational and will believe ANYTHING as long is it tells them what they want to hear and reinforces their own prejudices, while preaching tolerance and the prohibition of other prejudices. ( Ok now we may have just walked straight into mine but I like to think a prejudice is based on just that - pre-judging... Mine is based on my long term, first hand experience of them! )

The authorities are taking advantage of it to divide and conquer... It's the whole "Pastor Niemoeller, Friedrich" syndrome

[Jonathan]

LOL Robin, don't you hold back there !

Graham - you need a sticker I made for my friend at work, "friends of the earth" one I stuck on his X-Trail rear window

Either that or you should have "Rev Range Rover" on the back

[MKE40]

Well said Tony!

The authorities are taking advantage of it to divide and conquer...

Bang on target again Gunner Williams.

Your perception of social manipulation by our employees at Westminster is as sharp as ever.

Do you have insider information.... by any chance ??

Mike

[Dan]

Stuart - with respect, I don't think you'll get much sympathy here. To support any argument against any sector of private motoring is to allow the tree-huggers and revenue-hungry politicians to drive a wedge amongst us. the same arguements could so easily be turned against people carriers, for instance. Let's rant about nasty, boxy, clumsy, inefficient people carriers, shall we? Clogging up the streets; who needs seven seats when there's just one mum driving and the occasional few half-sized passengers. Always guaranteed to cause chaos near schools...

However most people carriers are bought by suburbanites. Most vehicles are used in terms of the local area and so people carriers are used for running errands, shopping dropping kids off etc...

It is often argued that people carriers are safe but the statistics and NCAP tests seem to prove otherwise. Sensible small vehicles are available but I suspect most people select cars as a way defining themselves within the heirarchy of society.

Otherwise, people would choose the cheapest, or best value vehicle. I don't think any people carrier can be described as good value.

A mate of mine borrowed another mate of mines Ford Galaxy whilst he was vacationing for two weeks. After 24 hours with the car he had to stop driving it because, in his own words, "I'm driving like a woman and I'll probably kill myself."

Now the question raised is this, was he driving badly beacuse he was in a people carrier, or simply he had turned into a school-run mum?

Anyway, I think the whole argument will become academic sooner rather than later as the main constraint on car use is the availability of cheap fuel. I suspect that fuel prices will soon be echoing that of the property market.

So, in conclusion, people carriers are fine within the context of their use, it's just that a lot of people are buying them when other cars would be more appropriate.

If you want a demonstration of the chaos caused by people carriers and small roads feel free to visit me and we can watch the mums and dads 100 yards along the road at our local school. Top entertainment.

Stuart

So you really want to spend the rest of your life travelling by bus or train?

[Kimbers]

It so infuriates me that some misguided, misinformed, woebegotten politician comes out with the phrase "4x4" as an example of an enviromentally unfriendly car and the nappy wearing, believe any old crap, chain myself to a tree, hippy types have to turn it into a personal attack!

Now if you want the perfect example of a polluting 4x4 see Graham, don't bother me!! Incidently this isn't only a Honda thing as the Toyota comes a close second and the new Freelander just behind that in terms of pollution (though why in gods name you'd want one of those over a new CRV I don't know!!)

It's a good job it was last week I spoke to those bra wearing, believe whatever I'm told, Brainwashed, chain myself to a rapeseed plant tree huggers, cause if it was today I'd have just taken a large iron bar and beaten them to death with it......Cause I'm Mr ANgry and stressed today......glass of wine anyone?

[arbell9]

We live in a culture of keeping up with the jones'.

When there was few 4x4 models available no-one batted an eyelid, then manufacturers got smart and build and marketed soft roaders, partial off roaders and real hardcore off roaders. This meant if you could not have the Disco then you could have maybe the bottom of the range XC90, if not that then maybe a CRV or the Nissan version (memory block on the name). Its a hierarchy of wanabees. Then you get those who never get beyond the focus or micra and spout how bad these vehicles are and oh how dangerous they are ...... but use captain subtext translation system and you get ....Its not fair I want one of those.

Look how many people buy a 318i.

Its not the best looking, not the best drive, not the most economical, not the cheapest. You would be better with a Type S accord or Mondy Ghia x titiantium etc for the money.

But Ahh..... mr Jones who earns more than you has just got his 325i parked on the drive. Oooooh that hurts. Got to get meself one, cant fall behind. No cant fall behind.

Its ok honey we can afford it, if we consolidate all our loans, flog my Sole to he devil, you sell your body for two nights a week and make the kids work we can afford it. Low and behold whats on the drive looking shiny and costing a packet!!! A new 318i with an extra 10 airbags, just in case to make the kiddies safe!!

Then some big bad tree hugging hippy comes along and makes up a giant fairy tale about the sea rising and Manchester becoming the new riviera. Look we must tax these bad cars. Bad people, buying your 4x4s and your 318i with 10 airbags.

I know lets make fuel 400x more expensive than it needs to be, lets charge them for owning a car on a public road, no lets tax them to drive in the town they live , no lets tax them per mile betweeen the towns they live in. Sod it tax them with the whole damn lot.

But I cant afford that. I am already consolodated to the hilt and my body is whored twice nightly to pay for my essential transport. Use public transport, does one come near where I live,mmmmmmm no.

Want to critise something point your self in the direction of the last person to keep up with the Jones and towards the feckless Government and their love affair with the Truggys (tree Hugging Hippys, just made that up .. ...sounds good that. Yes the pain the ar*e Truggys)

What do others think????????????

[Loose Cannon]

Stuff

Stuart

Driving a Saxo VTS do you not suffer the same kind of knee jerk supposition and prejudice??

We seem to have become a very intolerant society...

[Advantage]

Now if you want the perfect example of a polluting 4x4 see Graham, don't bother me!! Incidently this isn't only a Honda thing as the Toyota comes a close second and the new Freelander just behind that in terms of pollution (though why in gods name you'd want one of those over a new CRV I don't know!!)

Oiy!! I resemble that remark!! Akshirley, my Range Rover (all 4.4 litres of V8) only pollutes when it's switched on, which isn't that often. I only do approx 10k miles per year in my wagon (although this past week has seen the miles being piled on for one reason or another) so if you compare my exhaust's output with, say, a Vectra being driven for 40k miles a year I think the Vectra would be the bigger polluter. And therin lies the current 'taxing' problem and public perception.

As for wanting a Freelander over a CRV...some of us like to get our Landies dirty and need something that won't get stuck on a dandelion leaf

Edit for spooling

Edited May 1, 2007 by GKP

[slade]

hmm... the HCI is middling apparently

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/2915.shtml

but I get way better gas mileage than that I have a featherfoot.

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

I'm not entirely sure why the people carrier was pointed out as the next most likely target as it is patently obvious... it will be us!

'Wreckless, polluting, low economy sports cars' .... "you can't drive them *that* fast anyway" (ie not legally / without killing babies - of which I have killed 9, just this week alone )

Maybe that's the new angle? Baby offsetting?

For every 100 miles I drive over 120, I have to knock up some chav slapper to pop out a new replacement baby for the one I obviously killed?

[Tentenths]

Otherwise, people would choose the cheapest, or best value vehicle. I don't think any 4x4 can be described as good value.

You might not Stuart, but plenty of other people do. I guess it all depends on how you define value. Your idea of what represents best value is probably completely different to mine. Your priority may be, say, economy or size. Mine, on the other hand, might be speed or handling. The fact that we have different priorities doesn't mean one of us is right and the other is wrong. It's just that we as individuals are simply exercising our freedom of choice to form our own judgements. Long may it continue.

A mate of mine borrowed another mate of mines Porsche Cayenne whilst he was vacationing for two weeks. After 24 hours with the car he had to stop driving it because, in his own words, "I'm driving like a twat and I'll probably kill myself."

Now the question raised is this, was he driving badly beacuse he was in a 4x4, or simply he had turned into a Porsche driver?

Are you seriously suggesting that 4x4s - or indeed Porsches - turn people into bad drivers?

So, in conclusion, 4x4's are fine within the context of their use, it's just that a lot of people are buying them when other cars would be more appropriate.

Who decides what's appropriate or not? Why stop at 4x4s? What about Ferraris, Lambos, Astons and, dare I say, Lotus Esprits? When is any high performance car ever 'appropriate'? My wife and I don't have children yet we run two 4/5 seater cars (and for that matter live in a house that's far too big for just the two of us), is that appropriate? Stretching the point? Or is it?

[Evil_Dr_Fish]

A mate of mine borrowed another mate of mines Porsche Cayenne whilst he was vacationing for two weeks. After 24 hours with the car he had to stop driving it because, in his own words, "I'm driving like a twat and I'll probably kill myself."

Now the question raised is this, was he driving badly beacuse he was in a 4x4, or simply he had turned into a Porsche driver?

Are you seriously suggesting that 4x4s - or indeed Porsches - turn people into bad drivers?

I think he was suggesting that it makes you feel invincible and so take stupid risks / make bad driving choices due to the tractor / tank like nature of them / perceived 'safety' - and in this specific example, then coupled with the speed of a Cayenne (see also X5, anything AMG etc)

[Jonathan]

I must admit I have wondered why anyone needs anything other than a Ford Ka to run around it - small, economic, cheapr, 4 seats and a steering wheel - job done !

I've already had a hippy have a go at my 'gas guzzler' - we had a similar 1 sided, turn table conversation like Kimber's, esp when I told them I walk to work

(used to run but I figured I breathed out more CO2, saving the planet and all)

[mayevora]

You know what I'd love to do this all day! Drive around cities putting polluting bsted stickers on all Mini's, etc just like they do in London. Bring it on!!

Something against Mini drivers my good friend?

[Dan]

I'm not entirely sure why the people carrier was pointed out as the next most likely target as it is patently obvious... it will be us!

'Wreckless, polluting, low economy sports cars' .... "you can't drive them *that* fast anyway" (ie not legally / without killing babies - of which I have killed 9, just this week alone )

That was me You are quite right though; I did actually draft the reply with his rant quoted twice, once with 'sports car' and then again with 'people carrier' substituted, to show the disingenuity and flexibility of the argument; however I thought the baby bus rant sounded less like a "don't criticise my plaything" knee-jerk reaction so edited it downto just that

When you think about it, most of the arguments that can be levelled at 4x4's (oh how I hate that crass Americanism-cum-marketing-drivel term 'SUV' ) can be applied directly to people carriers... most of the tree huggers wouldn't see it like that, of course.

Want to reduce congestion? Ban the school run. Want to reduce CO2 emissions? Depopulate the world, just the reduction in breathing will have a huge impact

I went to see a man about renting a shed today, it happened to contain two Land Rovers he's thinking of selling. All this talk of how bad 4x4's are has made me really stop and think - so rather than buying one of them, I'm going to buy both and wave the same number of fingers at the tree huggers. That'll bring me up to a nice round 5 Land Rovers, should be enough for the forseeable future

[fmxa]

Funny, I was about to buy a Hummer, then thought about the environment so I bought a Range Rover!

[Kimbers]

You know what I'd love to do this all day! Drive around cities putting polluting bsted stickers on all Mini's, etc just like they do in London. Bring it on!!

Something against Mini drivers my good friend?

No nothing....apart from the fact that people think they're green cause they're small but in reality they have worse Co2 output than many of the Japanese 4x4's, MPV's etc. Just an example my Accord driving friend!!

Stuart..........

Ever wished you'd considered posting something else? :yes

Don't take any of this personally it's just one of virtually every members major issues.

By the way.....your Citreon VTR Co2 169, Honda's MPV 162..........just a point!!

[Tentenths]

And the Saxo VTS is 201g/Km