Hangar 111/KT EX370

[Maxi_z]

I would also think that only fitting the manifolds and sports cat should not change anything if you continue to follow the lower rpm driving but decided to not fit anything until 1500km as after all it s a lotus and I already broken one engine on this one...

Would have liked a bit more of details and communication from komotec about this with maybe some technical reasons but they just wrote me that its important not to fit any parts during the first 1500km without specifying if it s for warranty reasons or because of some ecu limits or else.

I think the V6 cup R race car comes standard with manifolds that are not catted and the cat is part of the rear silencer and I don t think many users would make 1500 full km of running in on track for example.

 

On 27/09/2018 at 15:25, FF said:

I have the EX 390 kit installed as well. Here they don't sell 98 RON fuel but only 95 RON.

At every full of petrol I use a small can of Liquid moly Octan booster. 

With the kit installed the car don't like the 95 RON.

 

Same thing about the use of 98 RON fuel only on komotec kit

While I perfectly understand that their mapping is made for 98 RON and that with the ignition advance for 98 RON the car would knock and that they got to have that advance to heve the full power as advertised

I don t know why they could not offer a slightly less agressive 95 RON map on request of customers even if that would mean to loose a little bit of power and maybe pay some extra.

There are different countries where 98 is not available and while you can use some octane booster it would be cool to know that if you have to fill up with 95 RON the engine will still be ok.

 

[Lo2zz]

Will almost certainly be getting this kit in the next few months. For those that have fitted it / Hangar could you answer a few questions please

1. Sound - What type of sound does the intake produce? I love my Type R which whistles and chatters with its filter - which seems fitting for the car,  but I wouldn't necessarily want that noise in the Lotus - where I like that fact it feels like it just has a large NA engine rather than a forced induction. 

2. MOT - I have the 2bular road system, and am also planning on having their downpipes which remove the pre cats in the manifold and replace with a race cat. Does the remap of the 370 materially affect the emissions/fuelling whereby with an exhaust with precats removed it might not pass MOT?

3. Given I will have the full exhaust system will the map be tweaked to maximise this, or will it use the same parameters as any other car.

 

Many thanks !

[Lo2zz]

On ‎29‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 04:59, alias23 said:

Unsure if it helps answer your question but HKS induction on standard engine and exhaust system = more induction noise for sure but never a problem on any track day I’ve encountered in the UK. Original V6.

Fitted my intake over the weekend. With the 2bular exhaust in race mode I'm pretty amazed how much more responsive the car is. 

Great to have the supercharger whine, without it being intrusive - the mid range and top end feels significantly stronger, than before.

If anything the exhaust and intake have made me more confident that there are gains to be had with the std set up. Definitely want the manifolds now as well - just wondering If I'm getting to the limits of what the ECU will take and will need at least a reflash

 

[alias23]

38 minutes ago, Lo2zz said:

Fitted my intake over the weekend. With the 2bular exhaust in race mode I'm pretty amazed how much more responsive the car is. 

Great to have the supercharger whine, without it being intrusive - the mid range and top end feels significantly stronger, than before.

If anything the exhaust and intake have made me more confident that there are gains to be had with the std set up. Definitely want the manifolds now as well - just wondering If I'm getting to the limits of what the ECU will take and will need at least a reflash

 

I am led to believe intake + headers/sports cat will necessitate the need for a remap.

@Bravo73 found this out when he experimented with a similar approach. 

The V6 ECU is encrypted and hence can’t be reflashed/mapped, so you either need to buy a new ECU and get a custom map, or go down the Komotec route.

[Lo2zz]

18 minutes ago, alias23 said:

I am led to believe intake + headers/sports cat will necessitate the need for a remap.

@Bravo73 found this out when he experimented with a similar approach. 

The V6 ECU is encrypted and hence can’t be reflashed/mapped, so you either need to buy a new ECU and get a custom map, or go down the Komotec route.

It's interesting I hear different things from different tuners. What do Komotec use from the ECU front? I had always assumed that the 'ecu optimisation' they refer to was a 'reflash'. What is it a piggyback?

I've heard that exhaust and headers are okay with the std ecu - maybe the intake pushes it over the edge. 

[alias23]

49 minutes ago, Lo2zz said:

It's interesting I hear different things from different tuners. What do Komotec use from the ECU front? I had always assumed that the 'ecu optimisation' they refer to was a 'reflash'. What is it a piggyback?

I've heard that exhaust and headers are okay with the std ecu - maybe the intake pushes it over the edge. 

Correct the ECU appears to allow either intake or headers but not both...

I have no idea how KT have managed to remap the standard ECU but understand they’re the only ones who have achieved this bar maybe BOE in the US.

@Hangar 111 now have a stand-alone ECU for the V6 (ECU Master) which has a cool LCD dash display option! However unsure how much R&D has been done on a map.

[vd9]

There seems to be a veil of secrecy around remapping ECUs of Exiges. I did not research the topic much, but would not be surprised if there is a compatible equivalent of ECUFlash or something similar to work with.

Alternatively, can't go wrong with More, especially if the work is already done to have it PnP - 

 

[Jack]

3 hours ago, alias23 said:

 

I have no idea how KT have managed to remap the standard ECU but understand they’re the only ones who have achieved this bar maybe BOE in the US.

 

Yes, Imran is correct..... BOE does have tunes for the supercharged V6 variants using the stock EFI ECU.  BOE also has a great set of headers for the V6's.

https://www.boefab.com/collections/tuning

[C8RKH]

My understanding is that it is relatively recently that Lotus "encrypted" the ECU's on the Exige and Evora's, and that on the earlier cars they were "open" and therefore Komotec and BOE, and a couple of others iirc, where able to "map" them.

It seems Lotus are making it harder probably because they themselves have used ECU maps to up the performance of the cars relatively cheaply re manufacturers costs whilst increasingly significantly what they can then charge the customers for more powerful versions.

[alias23]

4 hours ago, Jack said:

Yes, Imran is correct..... BOE does have tunes for the supercharged V6 variants using the stock EFI ECU.  BOE also has a great set of headers for the V6's.

https://www.boefab.com/collections/tuning

I guess the concern is always that BOE is some distance away from the UK... also are they mapping and tested for say 98/99 octane petrol or a lower rating for US?

[Kristof Thys]

DixieV6 on this board haw a CAI, Larini headers, NO cat and all is well with the standard ECU. And as always, car runs, as all of them, pig rich. We're seeing 10:1 afrs. 

Long term fuel trims all ok. 

So no need for an ECU tune... However, it will bring more power if you do (by leaning out at WOT) as the way our cars left the factory is a bit... Errrr... Too rich for my taste 😉

Edited January 2, 2019 by Kristof Thys
Typo

[Jack]

20 hours ago, alias23 said:

I guess the concern is always that BOE is some distance away from the UK... also are they mapping and tested for say 98/99 octane petrol or a lower rating for US?

BOE has a tune request form that allows you to specify various factors, including fuel type.  For example, on my 2-11, I run 100 unleaded which allows Phil@ BOE to tweak my timing a bit.  Also, other parameters of the stock tune can be altered to fit the end-users desires....like the IAT compensation table.  Since I run 100 octane, I opt for less timing retard as IATs increase as I'm not concerned about possible detonation.  Of course, this is all done at my own risk.  

[Jack]

22 hours ago, C8RKH said:

My understanding is that it is relatively recently that Lotus "encrypted" the ECU's on the Exige and Evora's, and that on the earlier cars they were "open" and therefore Komotec and BOE, and a couple of others iirc, where able to "map" them.

It seems Lotus are making it harder probably because they themselves have used ECU maps to up the performance of the cars relatively cheaply re manufacturers costs whilst increasingly significantly what they can then charge the customers for more powerful versions.

FWIW:  Actually, Lotus ECUs have been encrypted going back to the S2's at least....they were never open-source.  Koldfire (I think affiliated with Komotec) back in 2011 opened up the ECU and was selling tunes.  Around 2014, BOE through its FASTWORKS programing was doing tunes for the S2 variants, initially only on the "white-dash/K-line" cars, then subsequently on the "black-dash/can-bus" cars.

[MrP_]

13 minutes ago, Jack said:

FWIW:  Actually, Lotus ECUs have been encrypted going back to the S2's at least....they were never open-source.  Koldfire (I think affiliated with Komotec) back in 2011 opened up the ECU and was selling tunes.  Around 2014, BOE through its FASTWORKS programing was doing tunes for the S2 variants, initially only on the "white-dash/K-line" cars, then subsequently on the "black-dash/can-bus" cars.

Yep, was certainly a feature on yota powered S2's, all the Exige S (06 onwards) were certainly encrypted. Some early NA's may nave been open. Mems on the rover was mappable though not many variables, many switched to emerald.

S2 Exiges often got the ECU sent off and returned flashed

[C8RKH]

So the ECU is the same one from non V6 to V6 cars? I did not know that so thanks for putting me right.

I was aware of Koldfire and that they had done early tunes for the V6. Essex Autosport did too for the V6 cars but then the guy who did it moved on to focus on his own ECU project.

[MrP_]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

So the ECU is the same one from non V6 to V6 cars? I did not know that so thanks for putting me right.

I was aware of Koldfire and that they had done early tunes for the V6. Essex Autosport did too for the V6 cars but then the guy who did it moved on to focus on his own ECU project.

If it’s the same or not I haven’t looked into, but Lotus have been encrypting since at least 2006, suspect earlier, but didn’t have an NA 4 pot Toyota, so not a problem I needed to overcome.

 I need to look into the ECU options more before I pick an upgrade path as it all seems a bit cloak and dagger at the moment

[alias23]

I guess buying an ECU is just one side of the coin, you need someone to also map it... which I'd be curious to understand further on who could actually do this and how complicated is it in reality? I still feel that the vendors (SSC/KT/BOE) at least can demonstrate and install maps that have been tried, tested, and optimised... whereas surely you're starting from scratch when you go it alone with a new ECU. Keen to learn more.

[vd9]

1 hour ago, alias23 said:

who could actually do this and how complicated is it in reality?

In fact it is not that difficult, given you start from the base tune (which is either base ROM from Lotus or pre-defined for an Exige V6 maps of the aftermarket ECU, which many of them would come with). You then only need to make sure you stick to the ground rules:

• Put in place all the key support infrastructure (OBD logging device, logging software configuration, WBO2; other sensors as needed and dependent on what is available from stock)
• Understand the basics of internal combustion engine operations and how different parameters are interdependent (basically excess intake pressure, AFR, ignition timing, main corrections of these)
• Make only incremental changes to one parameter at a time
• Log everything and spend good amount of time studying your logs, especially when putting the car to a good use after the changes (temperature makes a big difference between logging runs and 15 minutes trackday session)
• Adjust to mildly more conservative settings every time you encounter knocks

I've spent good amount of time mapping my own EvoIX which then has done more than 50k miles on my own maps without any issues (knock knock knock). Happy to talk through this topic, if interested. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by vd9

[Jack]

21 hours ago, C8RKH said:

So the ECU is the same one from non V6 to V6 cars? I did not know that so thanks for putting me right.

 

While the ECU supplier (EFI) is the same, the ECUs are significantly different between the 2ZZ-4cylinder cars and the V6 models, with the latter ECUs being much faster and having much greater computing/programming capacity.

[Jack]

4 hours ago, alias23 said:

I guess buying an ECU is just one side of the coin, you need someone to also map it... which I'd be curious to understand further on who could actually do this and how complicated is it in reality? I still feel that the vendors (SSC/KT/BOE) at least can demonstrate and install maps that have been tried, tested, and optimised... whereas surely you're starting from scratch when you go it alone with a new ECU. Keen to learn more.

Imran,  you are correct -- the  shop/person doing the tuning  is critical. Once the encryption has been defeated and the ECU is open, a qualified "tuner" could take a stab at improving performance parameters.  Even though I have the  "tuning suite" from BOE which would allow me to play with different ECU  "PIDs", I would never attempt the task.

One would typically tune the car on the dyno starting with a decent base tune.  Several dyno pulls would be required to get an adequate tune and then some "on-road or on-track driving while logging all parameters would be the proper procedure to determine that all is OK and to probably do some additional "tweaking" to the tune.  All in all, quite a bit of time and labor can go into getting a proper, safe tune.  SSC, KT, BOE,  all have in-house dynos along with "test mule" cars to get the tune/map right.  It's not a job for the typical shade tree mechanic, IMHO.

 

 

 

 

[Hangar 111]

7 minutes ago, Jack said:

 SSC, KT, BOE,  all have in-house dynos along with "test mule" cars to get the tune/map right.

We'll be mapping the EMU on our test mule, in our dyno, as soon as we get a bit of time...  We will also be developing bespoke traction control programmes at a certain test track in next month or two, in conjunction with an industry test driver, a race driver, and RRR.

Dave

Edited January 3, 2019 by Hangar 111

[vd9]

Ultimately there is inherent limitations in the transferrability of the tunes between the cars, as all the cars are different (and certainly different when people start changing the hardware). Of course decent "mail in" tune from a knowledgeable professional will be much better than kamikaze style quick effort from someone who did not put time and thoughts into the effort, but in the same way car-specific maps based on many hours of logging the same cae will be better for that car than even a good set of maps from the different even similar car.

Quick search leads to this - https://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f171/tuning-software-stock-lotus-ecu-162082/, but I understand they pulled it out from end users access.

[C8RKH]

11 hours ago, Jack said:

While the ECU supplier (EFI) is the same, the ECUs are significantly different between the 2ZZ-4cylinder cars and the V6 models, with the latter ECUs being much faster and having much greater computing/programming capacity.

Thanks for clearing up Jack. The previous posts seemed to suggest they were the same ECU hence me getting confused and my thong twisted! (Uk meaning of the word not Aussie!).

The Type 116 ECU was "hacked" by a guy in Holland who created a tuning programme. You send him the ECU, he opens it and installs a safe base map and provides you with a software tool so you can diy tune - it's time consuming but fairly idiot proof (I'm the proof) and most owners use it when the SC their cars. They install the SC etc, then the new base map and hey presto, 145bhp becomes 250!  Woof! That ECU like the Exige S1/2 is damn near 20 year old tech though hence being surprised people were referring to 4 cyl old ECUs as the same as the V6 ones in arcitecture, encryption, etc.

To refine the tune you connect the ECU to a laptop, start the software and drive and it collects crucial info and refines the tune as you go. Ideally, a pax is looking at the laptop as you drive at different revs until the rev range block goes green to show the software has captured key metrics for that rev range etc. Whole process can take 3-6 hours.

The guy who hacked the ECU did all the hard work. Must be 500 cars plus out there using it and all good.

As you srated, Komotec, Koldfire, BOE H111etc have all invested huge effort, hours, cost etc in their work and kit to support it. They need to earn a return on that and given the small relative market I applaud them for their efforts and progress and won't begrudge paying the price. It strikes me these days that everyone either wants stuff for nowt, or not much, and has little appreciation for the effort, skill and dedication that goes into what are artisan solutions for a small market. 

They have made something incredible hard easy with their solutions but the price needs to reflect their full investment and the need to make a return.

[Lo2zz]

22 hours ago, Hangar 111 said:

We'll be mapping the EMU on our test mule, in our dyno, as soon as we get a bit of time...  We will also be developing bespoke traction control programmes at a certain test track in next month or two, in conjunction with an industry test driver, a race driver, and RRR.

Dave

Hi Dave 

Will you ever create a custom map for a car for a car with existing bolt on's?

I have exhaust / manifold / intake but want an ECU tune to maximise them all together. 

Or wouldn't it be worth you while until I upgrade the supercharger pulley and get the remaining elements to effectively make the 430 kit ?

Cheers!

[Hangar 111]

7 minutes ago, Lo2zz said:

Hi Dave 

Will you ever create a custom map for a car for a car with existing bolt on's?

I have exhaust / manifold / intake but want an ECU tune to maximise them all together. 

Or wouldn't it be worth you while until I upgrade the supercharger pulley and get the remaining elements to effectively make the 430 kit ?

Cheers!

OEM ECU, no.  Aftermarket ECU, yes.

Dave