ECU, Engine, Injector, Coils or something else

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Cheers for that.

Quick scan on the net and looking like US availability only so a couple of weeks before I can move forward with this job.

Bloody marvelous .....Hethel 5 minutes drive and the tools to do the job......5000 mls away !

WD40 and a drift & hammer gotta be worth a try but as those who have done this before know, access is not easy.

 

[mike_sekinger]

You can borrow mine if you get stuck - it's a couple of days post from Germany.  People have managed without and I think your workaround is definitely on the right track.  You'll find the tool much easier for re-installation, so the offer is there.

 

[cweeden]

Yay sanity restored. 👍

39 minutes ago, mike_sekinger said:

You can borrow mine if you get stuck - it's a couple of days post from Germany.  People have managed without and I think your workaround is definitely on the right track.  You'll find the tool much easier for re-installation, so the offer is there.

 

Agreed, the drift works to undo it but a tool is really the only safe way to reinstall it. 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thanks for the kind offer Mike, may take you up on that.

Using a set of various length screwdrivers poked above and through the ABS side panel (where the FPR hose goes to the pump/ filter) etc managed to remove the old fuel pump assembly ......very wary however as undoing the unions, it only takes slip of the spanners and a spark then ...... 

Quick inspection of the old pump assembly and the hoses all look good but the yellow top plug is showing exposed copper wire on all four connections and looks to have possibly been getting warm...could just be and age thing as the pump assembly looks to be the original of 1997 vintage. 

Interestingly the new Lotus pump assembly looks to have larger diameter wire for that short harness connector and blue silicone type hoses in place of the black of the original.

Time for some lube on the o-rings and some grease/vaseline on the pump to tank O-ring and on the locking ring.

Maybe a piece of plastic drain pipe with a cut out may make a locking ring starter tool ... as the re-installation looks to be a bit of a job. 

 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Foiled again !

New Lotus supplied V8 fuel Pump assembly has no facility to mount the electrical 3 way connector on the top plate (not the yellow 4 wire connector, thats the same) .

The assembly removed has a black 3 way plug and when viewed from the underside has a hole to mount on to a spigot on the top plate. There is a tang which is bent over to hold this connector in place so its not looking like it was intended to ever remove this component  - is this a valve/sensor to shut off the fuel pump in case of roll -over for example ? 

Service notes - section EMH.3, page 12, the illustration shows without that plug but just a dimple where the 3 way connector would install. My new pump is the same .....unfortunately

Can anyone enlighten me as to the function or otherwise of the 3 way connector/sensor please.

Camera battery dead so cant post just at the minute ....sorry.

 

Edited August 3, 2019 by modifiedv8engines

[mike_sekinger]

The later cars have a fuel pressure leak detection.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thanks Mike -

Further investigation and just this second searched - the part number on the component is DELCO 16196060 with a description Fuel Pump Tank Vapour Vent Evap Pressure Sensor.....so similar to what you said.

Bit stumped as the yellow 4 wire connector is burnt and cant remove that or the new plug/harness to swap over. They are secured on the underside with a small stainless steel clamp ring but cant be removed without destroying so it looking  a awkward job to swap them over.

Plan was to reuse the top plate with its attached tube and fitting as this accommodates that pressure sensor, the new yellow 4 way connector and replace the old pumps with the new.

More than a bit concerned that the wires to the yellow plug had got that hot when a tank containing fuel is on the other side of the pump to tank top plate. Appears not to be any fuse protection unless the relay for the fuel pump is at fault.  

 

 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Scratch what I said a fuse protection .....Ah I see there is fuse protection ( silly arse ! as Mike already said to disable fuel pump and injectors - fuse B3) but fuse okay and didnt short/trip .

Can only summise the slightly charred wires on the fuel pump top plate (yellow block) are due to additional current draw possibly due to old fuel in the tank, a blockage, corrosion  or the old pump was just tired out and working flat out to maintain pressure. 

This may well have been the cause for the high pitched noise I heard from under the rear off-side engine bay area and posted a querry about that a few weeks ago . 

One good and mostly new fuel pump assembly made up and ready to attempt fitting shortly.

[MD355]

On 04/08/2019 at 00:22, modifiedv8engines said:

Scratch what I said a fuse protection .....Ah I see there is fuse protection ( silly arse ! as Mike already said to disable fuel pump and injectors - fuse B3) but fuse okay and didnt short/trip .

Can only summise the slightly charred wires on the fuel pump top plate (yellow block) are due to additional current draw possibly due to old fuel in the tank, a blockage, corrosion  or the old pump was just tired out and working flat out to maintain pressure. 

This may well have been the cause for the high pitched noise I heard from under the rear off-side engine bay area and posted a querry about that a few weeks ago . 

One good and mostly new fuel pump assembly made up and ready to attempt fitting shortly.

Please let us know if your problems are solved with the new fuel pump!! Thanks

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Just waiting for the Kent Moore tool to arrive (Massive thanks to Mike S) so I can re-install the fuel pump assembly.

Will keep this post updated on what happens next....hopefully this will solve the problem.

 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Sadly the new fuel pumps are not the problem so although the software gave a P1101 Fuel Pump and Relay fault code for Bank #1 ....its not those. Fresh fuel replaced old fuel to illiminate a potential stale fuel situation

Ran engine for a few minutes and can feel a difference in exhaust pressure Bank #1 feels lower pressure  - in a flash of inspiration, checked the cats for temp.

Bank #1 shows approx 115 deg C and Bank #2 175 deg C 

Next is to let everything cool down ( and me) and swap the lamda sensors over left to right and if this proves inconclusive possibly look at the cat converters (these were replaced a few years ago < 1500mls). Maybe able to swap the post and pre cat sensors if this is possible ??? any advise on that Im all ears

Getting to be less and less to check so depending on the outcome of the above.......its compression test.

If thats within specs its looking like FPR ?? or ECU ......or something else

 

 

 

[cweeden]

On 21/07/2019 at 21:33, cweeden said:

Have you checked the CATs?

^^ 🙂

[cweeden]

I would take the back box off and shine a torch into the cats. I assume you replaced them with more ceramic Lotus cats or are these metal?

I have had both types break up on me and will lead to a drastic loss of performance, difficulty revving and misfires. 

Here are some pictures of a metal cat that broke up and got wedged in the back box that needed surgery to remove!

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thanks Chris

I use the PNM centre exit exhausts with some ceramic 200 CEL cats that I "made fit" some time ago.

I have a bore scope kicking about somewhere so will have a look/see to whats going on there. 

Close to giving up and leaving until next year or something but thats todays mood..... if you know what I mean. 

Thanks again for the advise though as it may well be these causing the issues......the temp difference between banks 1 & 2 suggests these or the lamdas are at fault but seems what I think the problem is, always turns out to be something else. Checked most things but not all ..........

Will post again with more news shortly

 

 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Bore scope resolution not particularly good so scratch that idea. Lamda sensors wont budge so will need to remove exhaust to check cats it seems and reove lamdas on the bench with some heat.

Not completely defeated yet so

Have however managed a "snap shot" of current engine running data. Im more than a bit uncertain of whats going on here as Bank #1 Pre cat sensor appears very lean and ST and LT fuel trims all over the place which may be expected if the ECU is trying to add fuel and then not .....perhaps. 

Attached brief log if anyone can help to interpret

Cheers

 

 

OBDIILOG.csv

[mike_sekinger]

Looking at the RH and LH banks - the readings are generally consistent with what you would expect:

- O2 sensor low voltage - commands enrichment with increased injector PW

- O2 sensor increase voltage - commands leaning reduced PW

- O2 sensor reduced voltage - enrichment command increase PW  etc

- ST fuel trim is coming down as the long term is rising

The LH bank fuel trims are higher and the corresponding PW is lower

These are values before the cat, but gas flow restrictions may be making readings more difficult.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Many thanks for responding Mike.

I checked the 02 sensor heaters for continuity and all 4 checked out okay, so from the speadsheet data and your interpretation, that all seems okay.

However and this I think this is the problem.........removed sparks plugs and carried out a compression test. Not sure why I have left this to almost last but was convinced this was not an issue. Gauge I have has flexible extension but at least I obtained some results which are results if nothing else... a bit depressing tbh. Will re-test again when I get a proper extension to enure the seal is 100% but I doubt there will be  a significant difference

Tests carried out 3x with WOT as below (cool engine) .....couple hours after running

Cylinders # 1,2,3 all read = 8 BAR

Cylinder # 4 reads = 10 BAR

Cylinders # 5,6,7,8 = 8 BAR

Couple of squirts of engine oil down each bore and compression pressures the same/very similar.

All plugs clean other than # 4 (the 10 BAR pressure cylinder) ....light oil deposits ?

Manual says 10.7 +/- 1 BAR so @ 8 BAR its a valve train or possible bore, rings issue.

Maybe leakage into cylinder bores or gummed piston rings perhaps caused by ingress of rain water in plug wells ......

Last year car ran well, this year one good run early July and then problems. Esprit software says, relays, fuel pumps or short but no engine check light and only the P1101 code. I really cant fathom how the engine can go from good to bad this quickly as there was zero evidence of any issues previous to this year. This seems to be  fairly common with random issues

So what to do next ?

Tempted to try some fuel injector cleaner in the cylinder bores and leave that to soak and see if this restores the compression . Bit of a desperate measure but maybe worth a try as its looking like an engine out, rebuild etc etc

Sorry for running on

 

[mike_sekinger]

Those numbers are not great.  Give the ring cleaning a go, but with no change with the addition of oil it's doubtful you'll restore the necessary value.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thinking ............For Sale ......Low Comp Esprit V8......we shall see. 

The price I suppose for owning a high performance vehicle but if nothing else, have built several V8s over the years but this ones just a bit more complicated and parts are mostly quite difficult and costly.

Anyone know when the next Lotus sale is due ! 

 

 

 

[mike_sekinger]

Don't give up.... I acknowledge that it is disheartening to discover something like this, but keep reminding yourself of the pleasures when the car is running well. It's a privilege to own one of these cars.  In the end, it is more than "just another car".  

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Thanks for the encouragement Mike. Its needed !

Yes these are wonderful cars if not a bit fragile at times. They do as you know need lots of careful maintenance and when they are good, they are very good.

Shame I have missed the good weather with this car this year but fortunately I have other vehicles to use so can look into this further when I get around to it.

Big thanks again for your support and the others who contributed to this thread.

All part of the learning process and another lesson learnt in not relying on software to diagnose faults......

Cheers

Paul

 

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

Not to be beaten (yes I know some blokes even pay good money for that), I decided to carry out a engine hot comp test.

Strangely the previous cylinder # 4  which was @ 10 BAR has now dropped slightly to 9.5 BAR and cylinder #1 now @ 9 BAR. Repeated test several times to get a mean value but battery said thats enough so couldnt continue.  Temps (used infra red thermometer) prior to test show exterior cats of approx 25 - 30 deg C variation with Bank #1 being the cooler ......all a bit strange.

Removed rear tail pipe sections and then inspected cat sections best I could as cats visable from the back but not the front as there is a exhaust pipe bend in the way. Cat section removed

Here we go.......

Bank #1 turbo oil seals have gone or are leaking with oil having a cooling effect (and possibly causing some restriction to flow) on the cat on this side. Other side looks okay with no signs of leakage. Cant be sure until removed and inspected but suspect the high pitched dentist type drill noise I heard a few weeks ago was/is the turbo impeller,debris or similar letting go in the compressor side. From the back view with turbo on the engine, no signs of damage and shaft spins or at least rotates.

Leak - down test to perform next as it was considered better to remove exhaust to check for leakage in that location as well as the other areas like crankcase ( oil filler, dip stick tube), and TB etc etc

Looks a bit of a bastard of  job to remove the turbo but what goes on next (engine out or in) will be determined by the results of the air leakage test. 

 

[mike_sekinger]

I'm surprised that you did not have plumes of smoke if your oil seal is badly compromised.  I had a turbo failure and it was a like a blanket of smoke out the back...

Does the impellor of the suspect turbo show any signs of damage or excessive movement?  Replacing the turbo in-situ is possible, but be prepared from some serious cussing and hardship.

It just feels like the current findings are not really consistent with the original symptoms.

[Guest modifiedv8engines]

I suspect the oil seal which is not unlike a piston ring has cracked or has started to wear on the shaft. This may explain the smoke haze and also that the turbos are not working hard when the vehicle is stationary. On boost a different situation would exist and agree, would result in plumes of smoke if it let go then.

Given the various issues before and with an expired MOT test, I was unwilling to try the car on the road as in its initial problem state, it ran on less than 8 cylinders and would have a job explaining to the local police what I was doing if the car broke down (and the issue of recovery) . All tests therefore are stationary and not under load or driving conditions

Impellor has some free movement and spins but I wouldnt say excessive but on removal I can check the compressor side for damage then.

Seem to be going round in circles with this as results are varying with compression tests and variations in recorded values. With oil present on spark plug cylinder #4 this indicates oil is entering the cylinder and having an effect on comp testing.. the 10 BAR reading ....perhaps as the volume of oil would reduce the chamber volume and result in a higher reading.

Would be interested what others have recorded for cylinder compression as the 10.7 BAR value seems high for an engine that has 8.5:1 or thereabouts compression spec. Leak down to perform when weather permits but even this is a bit of a challenge as crank pulley difficult to work with unless car on ramp and I have no hydraulic ramp. 4th gear and hand brake will suffice or if it fails..... a new fence !

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by modifiedv8engines

[mike_sekinger]

1 hour ago, modifiedv8engines said:

Would be interested what others have recorded for cylinder compression as the 10.7 BAR value seems high for an engine that has 8.5:1 or thereabouts compression spec. 

Only 8.0:1 🙂