Brexit

[USAndretti42]

Saw a political broadcast by the Leave campaign the other night which was still pushing the £350million a week figure for what we send to the EU even though that number had been widely refuted.  Irritates me to death that they are still trying to mislead us.

I also have doubts about Boris. He was late to say whether he was for staying or leaving and he said that was because he couldn't decide. So, if it was such a hard decision, how come he's now so evangelical about leaving?  And then there is Michael Gove, David Cameron's (ex?) friend who is possibly sore about how he was demoted from education minister in a cabinet shuffle.  Is all the leave campaign work they are doing just about a power grab and getting rid of Cameron with the future of the country a very secondary consideration?

Then there's Osborne trying to scare us with talk of an emergency budget as soon as we get a result to leave.  Why?  It will take years to leave and I can't see an immediate consequence to the economy.  Cancellations in investment that may result would take months or longer to have an effect, wouldn't they?

Why can't they speak the truth?

[Chillidoggy]

They're politicians.

[Barrykearley]

42 minutes ago, ian29gte said:

They're politicians.

It's not that.

neill kinnock is the man to ask why!!

[Andyww]

Funny how the Remainers have always gone on about our exports becoming dearer owing to tariffs, and just now on the news they are saying the Pound will "plummet", which makes our exports cheaper!

[Barrykearley]

Economics man - market forces - it will all balance out in the end.

what is impossible is continued economic growth - unless you bring in more demand - in the form of more consumers

[Bazza 907]

I wonder if the Referendum might get postponed as a result of the very sad events of today?

 

[Chillidoggy]

12 minutes ago, Bazza 907 said:

I wonder if the Referendum might get postponed as a result of the very sad events of today?

 

Why? 

Ah, just seen an MP has been killed.

[Andyww]

Very unlikely I think but as campaigning has been suspended for today maybe Question Time will be dropped.

Edit: Is has been dropped. Gone from the schedules.

[Barrykearley]

I doubt that - it's normally filmed earlier in the day - think it all kicks off at 5 or 6 so I expect the news was still filtering through.

 

a shocking attack on our political system and a tragedy. 

 

Looks like question time has been canned - something about Rome on instead

[Vanya]

What convenient timing! A (genuinely) tragic loss and barbaric crime, committed by a geezer who happens to shout "Britain first" while doing the deed. The message? If you vote "LEAVE", you're just like him. This is going to stigmatise the entire camp. Feels like a made-to-order job. In the coming days I'm sure we'll be seeing "unprecedented turnaround" in the polls and statistics, with large support for remaining in the EU. 

[Advantage]

I don't think you could be any more wrong. This tragic and horrific act is not being politicised by any party and the small section of the media that are trying to make political gains on the back of it are being lambasted. For the briefest of moments the entire political spectrum in the UK has been united by Cox's murder.

What a waste and a loss of one of the few genuine politicians, not to mention a wife and mother of two. 

[Barrykearley]

Absolutely disgusting. This should not be linked to anything political in any way.

im sure the media reports about the guy having mental health issues will bumble on for a while. 

My heartfelt thoughts are with her family 

[Andyww]

Polly Toynbee in the Guardian is blaming this senseless act entirely on the leave campaign and Nigel Farage. Good grief.  

[march]

It goes without saying that this was a horrific act that should never have happened and it appears she was one of the few who were genuinely in politics for all the right reasons. I don't suppose I should be surprised at the media but I was surprised at some politicians who seemed couldn't get their faces on the media quickly enough to talk about her. The worst of which I thought was one female MP standing and talking with a female presenter on Newsnight I think (on BBC2) directly in front of the road where she was killed stating what a good friend and colleague she was - all this before within a few hours of the murder. It just seemed a bit warped to me.

The one I did feel sorry for was Ben Bradshaw who was interviewed by local news who could only just hold it together, the others I saw seemed only too happy to get there mugs on TV

[Chillidoggy]

1 hour ago, Andyww said:

Polly Toynbee in the Guardian is blaming this senseless act entirely on the leave campaign and Nigel Farage. Good grief.  

 

I see they've not opened it for comments. Odious woman.

[Kimbers]

On a Terrible day like today I would like you to look at this picture which is of the 2 unarmed Police Officers tackling and arresting the murderer, despite knowing he had a gun and a knife. We can all see a ladies handbag on the right. 

Like everyone else I was shocked this has happened and to such a lovely lady with 2 kids and a loving family. 

 

[Barrykearley]

Hats off to the lads 

[franjipane]

Absolutely tragic day yesterday.  It was bad enough to see Farage standing in front of the 'BREAKING POINT' poster closely resembling Nazi propaganda suggesting we close our borders entirely.  I won't paste such a terrible picture here but you can look it up easily if you really want to see it.  And then the murder of the MP was just horrific news.  The current situation in this country is beyond reason with so much negativity and hatred everywhere.  Heartbreaking this is the state of our country it really is.

[Andyww]

I dont believe this incident indicates there is massive negativity and hatred in this country at all. I believe 99.9 % of people get along here just fine regardless of race or creed. The heartbreak comes when thinking about this poor ladys family, not for the country.

[franjipane]

13 minutes ago, Andyww said:

I dont believe this incident indicates there is massive negativity and hatred in this country at all. I believe 99.9 % of people get along here just fine regardless of race or creed. The heartbreak comes when thinking about this poor ladys family, not for the country.

Sure, it was just the act of one person, so i don't think the action of one person indicates a massive amount of negativity and hatred.  I'm also looking at the wider picture of the country at the moment and the amount of hate going on.  Even her husband said it "She would have wanted two things above all else to happen now, one that our precious children are bathed in love and two, that we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her."

[C8RKH]

@franjipane so Farage standing in front of a poster resembles Nazi propaganda does it. OK, so what does Cameron telling every citizen in the country that Brexit could result in war with Europe resemble?

I'm not sure the picture you paint is correct and the Remain parties are perfectly good at painting pictures of doom, gloom, despondency and total annihilation and I am amazed that people are not seeing through it. You've been very smoothly flying the Remain flag, and that is something you are personally entitled to do, but what you have lacked to provide is any clear rationale of your own as to why we should remain, in YOUR opinion. Instead, you have been gently prodding us to this pro-Remain news article and to another pro-Remain article. Why, in your own words, should we remain?

A lot of negativity is actually coming from the Remain camp, but the Leave camp is being tarred with it. It was actually the exact same thing that happened up here in Scotland in the Indyref. The Nationalists accused the "remain" camp of running project "FEAR" and being nasty - yet a lot of that fear mongering was actually coming out of the mouths of the Nationalists, but very cleverly spun to taint "Remain". We are seeing a similar tactic being deployed again.

Some points of view:

1. Leave has no clear post BRexit strategy - Very true. They don't. Part of the reason why they don't is that we are going in to uncharted waters. No-one has ever "left" the EU before, so how long it will take (the rules say 2 years but when did anyone apart from  the British ever play by the rules in the EU?) is an unknown. What trading arrangements will be put in place, is unknown. What will happen to British citizens residing currently in the rEU and EU citizens residing currently in the UK, is largely unknown. These "unknowns" are actually FACTS! It will all be down to the strength and quality of the deal that is hammered out post a Brexit vote. Anything else that is said, by either party, is just bluster and bullshit. And EU member politicians like the French PM, Merkel, the Dutch PM, the Spanish PM etc can all go and take a flying jump over the cliffs of Dover as they themselves are just blustering as they do not know what the outcome will be. This is a FACT.

Now, let's take the same point and look at Remain. What is their post BRin vote strategy? Have you heard one? Have they been able to articulate how they will force a further re-negotiation from within? How by being inside the tent, it will be easier for us to have a piss, than standing outside of it trying to piss in?  No. They have no strategy post BRin. Why, because they do not know what the outcome will be if we vote in. Will all our friends (the French, the Dutch, The Germans, The Spanish PM's) be quite as accommodating to the UK once they know we have voted to stay? Or will they zip up the the tent tight and kick the shit out of us for being a troublesome bastard child who dared to step out of line? After all, we can;t then decide to take our ball home and leave - we've played that ace hand and lost! 

So, will the much vaunted Cameron EU negotiation be honoured?  Hmmm, well let me see, the French screwed us over three times on joining the EU even though we got DeGaulle the nuclear weapons he so fantasised over. So do I trust them to not screw us over again? Do I hell. The French political elite hate us and will do everything they can to keep us in our place. The Germans, well, as long as we promise to stop being a problem, to behave, and to continue to buy their manufactured goods at over inflated prices, well, they'll be happy to just give us a slap rather than a good doing. The Spanish will just go back to raping OUR fishing grounds whilst our fleet continues to rust away under the weight of EU fishery policies and rules. So, I would respectfully argue that, "Should we go, or should we stay", the future, and any strategy to deal with it, from either side, is completing missing.

2. BRexit will result in a global financial meltdown. Well do you know what, it just might. I think it is a very real possibility but bizarrely I can see a case where this really favours the UK. There is a huge amount of foreign investment in the UK. In property. In businesses. In IP. In banks. In sterling. An awful lot of non British people would lose an awful, no, a tremendous amount of wealth, if the UK economy imploded inwards. But then why should it?  We have generated more net new jobs than the rest of the EU combined in the past 10 years. We have done that because we have a very competitive economy. A strong, adaptable and well educated workforce. An open door for migrant workers who have brought skills, drive and ambition. Sensible labour laws that provide a degree of protection for the workforce whilst providing an attractive environment for companies to recruit, grow, and retreat from with restricted liabilities.

Compare that with the rest of the EU. The economy of the main EU countries is a pile of shit. France - hugely old fashioned, strong socialist worker protections, intransigent workforce, strike prone and in some cases workshy, hugely bureaucratic, inflexible and hugely expensive to retreat from. Not forgetting of course that the French government has played the biggest "protectionist" card over it's core industries for the past 30 years - as a result, it is basically just noncompetitive, full stop! What about Spain - massive, chronic unemployment amongst younger people. Totally outperformed on just about every output based measure in industry. Hugely bureaucratic again and protectionist in outlook. Italy, Greece, need I go on.  I truly believe the biggest, and must crushing economic and financial risk of BRexit is not actually to the UK, it is to the countries that are currently within the Eurozone. They are hugely noncompetitive in general. They are reducing, not growing economies. They are massively indebted. They are being crippled by the Euro currency, which only really, suits Germany.

3. Trade - BRexit will result in a cessation of trade with the EU and we will need to go to the back of the queue with every other country to negotiate trade deals and that could take years, decades even.  OK, so here are some facts. The biggest inhibitor to UK trade with the rest of the commonwealth, is, the EU. It is as a result of being in the common market that we can not directly favour and support our Commonwealth cousins, particularly in Africa but also the Caribean. There goods are subject to EU trade tariffs which raise the price, particularly of farmed goods from these areas, so over weight, bloated, lazy, mostly French, farmers can have an easier life.  This is directly pushing UP the price of some farm stuffs to the UK consumer. Was the sight of butter mountains, milk lakes, and fresh product mountains rotting away as a result of EU "policies" to protect EU farmers prices not sickening enough to linger in peoples memories. At the same time as the EU was letting literally billions of caleries of worthy food stuffs spoil and rot, we in the UK, we holding concerts to raise hundreds of millions of pounds to feed millions of starving people across the world. Is the irony of all that really lost on those who believe we should remain in the EU and that it is a force for good?  Since 1976, as a percentage share of our total exports, our exports to the EU have declined, year on year. Suprising as it may be, but we actually trade more and sell more to the rest of the world, than  we do the EU. However, we are a huge and important EU nett importer of goods. The simple FACT is that EU needs our trade more than we need its. Are they really going to turn their backs on one of the biggest value (by spend) consumer markets in the world?  Answers on a postcard to the usual address please.

So, let's stop quoting newspaper websites to make our point of view - we all know, or at least should know - that newspapers are usually owned by old men who use them as a vehicle to push their own agenda, as opposed to am agenda that favours the good of the public. I think I can state this as a  FACT too!

There are many many things I could write about in this reply but it would become a novel. For instance. Why do we need a Federal Europe SuperState? What benefit will it bring to the world? And, given that the people who want it the most - Eurocrats in Euroland (who are in the main not even elected - and I would argue are also mostly un-electable) - are politicians and not citizens, how can I be convinced that it is not just an undemocratic attempt to subjugate the people of Europe against their will, for the benefit of the privileged few?

I'm clearly for out. @franjipane, in your own words, put forward a strong enough case for remain, and if it stacks up and is believable, then trust me, I will become a convert as I pride myself on having an open, inquisitive approach. My wife prefers to say I am like a three year and just like saying "yes, but why" to every thing.

[Kimbers]

I have already seen calls from Left wing and Pro Stay groups saying they want Pro Brexit and anyone who disagrees with them banned from promoting as they only purport to promote hatred.

Like they don't:
 

 

 

[C8RKH]

Didn't a certain Jeremy Corbyn have a similar point of view about those in his own party who disagreed with him, or did I miss understand that stuff?

Lest we forget that Stalin, Lenin, Mao were "lefties" and they were responsible for some pretty horrific policies. I find it funny that the right is always assumed to be nasty (even the Tories - let's face it, Cameron does look like a soft cabbage patch doll) when in effect, the Left are every bit as nasty, especially if you do not succumb and agree with them quietly! And of course it was the Left government that led is into a wholly illegal and immoral war not that long ago too! Funny that really.

[Bazza 907]

I'm not making any personal comment on this very sad news but following the announcement of the MPs death, Sterling bounced sharply and the equity markets have rallied strongly this morning (currently FTSE 100 +73pts).

What that is telling you is that there is an anticipation that 'moderate' voters will be swayed away from Brexit if there is any link whatsoever with the murderer and the exit campaign. Yes, it remains to be seen, but it's been reported he was shouting something like "Britain First" or something.  

[Andyww]

The Polly Toynbee view that all Brexiters are peddling hate is no better than saying that all Moslems are terrorists. 

I have seen some pretty horrific stuff on the Guardian comments pages including, several times, that IDS should be killed.