George Floyd

[C8RKH]

So, I  grabbed 20 minutes for some lunch and thought I'd do some searches for information.

Seems that during the height of the slave trade from the mid 1550's people were rounded up in Africa, mainly from inland and then transported (often being bought and sold along the way) across Africa to the predominantly the Western Coast. Chief's (leaders, politicians, etc by other names) regularly profited from this trade, either through keeping a percentage of the slaves for themselves, or through selling them on after they had been fattened up. They were therefore incentivised to hunt, capture and transport slaves across their lands and to the coast. Whilst the slaves themselves were not willing, plenty of their own were very willing accomplices. 12m people are thought to have been transported from Africa as slaves. A truly shocking number when you consider population sizes at the time.

The Walk Free Foundation estimated that 7 out of every 1,000 people in Africa were being held under "slavery" terms.  That is absolutely shocking. You want outrage? That is where you morale outrage should be directed....

So, instead of going around demolishing old "colonial symbols of tyranny", should we not be targeting our vast resources of energy, guile, outrage, shock and passion to rooting out modern day slavery. To finding the perpetrators of such a despicable act. To freeing and providing a better life for those in slavery? After all what will really make a difference. Toppling a 300 year old statue of some old bloke, or freeing just one vulnerable victim of modern day slavery?

Trouble is. It probably means the end to the cheap shoes, clothes and food that privileged people enjoy. So nah, let's just go on to the street and protest and riot. after all. We've got nothing better to do and it's an excuse to escape the boredom of lockdown.

 

[910Esprit]

99% of the population were not aware of the existance of these 'offensive' statues or what they represent (probably the hubris of the might of the British empire?). 

'Acedemics' have now decided to educate an audience of their wickedness, based on today's values.  I agree that education could be the answer, which may help us all to understand why certain communities seem permanently marginalised and unable to compete on equal terms (which is in nobody's interest).   However,  hiding or defacing historical artefacts is ridiculously futile and probably a divisive approach.

Just seen on local TV that 'they' now want to get rid of Captain Cook from Whitby - I'll be joining protests to keep him there....  

[march]

Nelson was pro slavery - now their is a challenge for the mob!

And then their is always the ultimate challenge:

[C8RKH]

Just about every ancient marvellous building was built by slaves. The Colosseum. The Pantheon. Great Wall etc.

Once you start, where do you stop?

Who arbitrates and decides and on what criterion?

[Francisco Franco]

People need to wake up..... these people aren’t after equality they are after the upper hand

[PaulCP]

Trouble is we now have a crusade by many of these perpetrators who don’t really understand what they are doing other than joining a bandwagon just because they can.
It is all getting out of hand and I fear, yet again, the majority will be required to accept the (what are becoming) misguided requirements of the minority.
They need to realise that the cause they were originally demonstrating about will be lost if they go too far and I fear that the very reason for the demonstrations , striking out racism, will result in an increase in racism against them by carrying on the way they are.

Time for education and understanding not left wing anti establishment activists trying to overthrow the history of a nation, if not the world.

History is history, it cannot be rewritten and nor should it be. 

[andydclements]

3 hours ago, march said:

Nelson was pro slavery - now their is a challenge for the mob!

And then their is always the ultimate challenge:

I think there was a long-standing belief these were built by slaves but has recently been challenged based on evidence of the living conditions, more in keeping with skilled artisans (masons etc) brought in to do the job.

 

Most of the people who lived in England were effectively slaves, bound to work the land on which they lived and pay for that but forbidden to leave that land, effectively slaves to the land owner.

[C8RKH]

Cannot and nor should it not be rewritten. But it should be understood. It should be analysed. And lessons should be learned to drive positive future outcomes.

Slavery was oppression and exploitation. Drugs and drug games are oppression and exploitation. Time to wake up and fix today's problems and issues.  

I don't subscribe to the point of view that disadvantaged people result in more disadvantaged people. The world is full of people who helped themselves to a better life through their own efforts. Some were lucky and got support from others. They don't all just conform and fall into drugs, gangs etc. You can make a different choice with the right level of encouragement and support. That is where our focus should be.

Anyway, to lighten things up, just saw this and it made me smile. I guess I'm getting to the age where my giggles can quickly become shits!

[Barrykearley]

After all this covid, lockdown and demo pishe - it’ll be the working man enslaved by governments again....

[march]

1 hour ago, andydclements said:

I think there was a long-standing belief these were built by slaves but has recently been challenged based on evidence of the living conditions, more in keeping with skilled artisans (masons etc) brought in to do the job.

I know - I just didn't want the facts to get in the way of a bit of humour. This was instead of a rant that would probably have upset some people.

And now this

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406019/Anti-racism-campaigners-call-Black-Boy-pubs-Britain-renamed.html

I am so glad I live in the middle of nowhere where I don't have to meet people who protest (with violence) without regards to all the facts. We were thinking of packing in the farm and moving - well not now!

An example from BBC local news - a girl organised the BLM protest in Plymouth and quoted her primary gripe that there were still Morris Men who blacked their faces - well with a small bit of investigation (and it is so easy with google these days) she would have realised the black faces represent the coal miners returning from the mines - stuff all to do with black people (if I am allowed to say that). 

 

 

[PaulCP]

Hence the comment in my post above

”Time for education and understanding not left wing anti establishment activists trying to overthrow the history of a nation, if not the world.”

[RichardC]

I can understand why people are wanting certain statues removed but that is possibly missing a chance to educate the public about the issues involved. I imagine that most people don't know much about the histories of the persons depicted in the statues. Leaving the statues up and attaching a plaque explaining that certain members  of the "great and good" of that era managed to get to the top of society by actually being nasty pieces of work who were involved in the slave trade, might serve a better purpose?

[Barrykearley]

Some of these statues could be flash points this weekend that’s for sure.

Im not convinced they have done the BLM cause any favours whatsoever with their acts of mindless lawlessness. 

[C8RKH]

Agreed. But provide the full view, i.e. where they also did some good. It does not justify what they did but provides the full view. Then let people make up their own minds.

[Barrykearley]

Yes the full view is worth considering. In that vein I hope we see the fall of the Nelson Mandela statue since he was oppressive at best.  We need to be utterly consistent and balanced if we are to have change.

[andydclements]

2 hours ago, march said:

I know - I just didn't want the facts to get in the way of a bit of humour. This was instead of a rant that would probably have upset some people.

And now this

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8406019/Anti-racism-campaigners-call-Black-Boy-pubs-Britain-renamed.html

I am so glad I live in the middle of nowhere where I don't have to meet people who protest (with violence) without regards to all the facts. We were thinking of packing in the farm and moving - well not now!

An example from BBC local news - a girl organised the BLM protest in Plymouth and quoted her primary gripe that there were still Morris Men who blacked their faces - well with a small bit of investigation (and it is so easy with google these days) she would have realised the black faces represent the coal miners returning from the mines - stuff all to do with black people (if I am allowed to say that). 

 

 

Now that's spooky coincidence, as about the time you posted that I was chatting to a neighbour and that included references to the black-face Morris dancers and how it's not about race at all,  and the same for those who simply used it to act as disguise in the way camouflage grease is used. 

[ramjet]

I recall there was an outcry at one stage to get the humble 'manhole cover' renamed to 'personhole cover'. 'Mankind' to 'personkind'. It gets difficult when you get to words like manners where you have to say personners. Just doesn't roll off the tongue.

The aborigines in Australia at one time were after COON cheese to be renamed. That was until it all came to light that the family that made that cheese had the surname'Coon'.

As far as the Black Boy pub goes, there is a native plant in Australia called a Black Boy. I wonder if we are going to have to rename that?

Live & let live.

[Barrykearley]

[RichardC]

At the Hethel Lotus 70 open day,  in the design studio, there was exhibited a fancy computerised 3D polystyrene block prototype part milling machine thingy, or something like that. The control box had a box sign on it "Master", while the bit that did the cutting had "Slave". Hydraulic cylinders, camera flashes, railway locomotives and computer parts are among the things similarly named. Aparrently there are campaigns certain industries to have the machinery parts renamed so as not to cause offence. At the time it didn't cross my mind as being offensive and I'm sure that the machines involved don't mind. Are we being too sensitive? Or am I not getting it due to white privilege?

[C8RKH]

50 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

That's not true. Unfortunately slavery is still alive today. It is in different formats that includes white on white; white on black; black on black and I am sure even black on white.

It's happening today in the UK. In the US. In central and south America. In Africa. In India and Asia. This is a fact and we cannot deny it. It's a very sad fact.

To be honest posters like that do not help at all as they are not factually correct.

[Neal H]

Just add “legally” at the appropriate points.

[C8RKH]

Doesn't help Neal. Legally or illegally, slavery needs to be wiped out and the sentiment on the poster incorrectly tries to deflect from the fact it still happens. You might be appalled to know that 49% of the countries in the world do NOT have criminal laws to prevent slavery or the owning of slaves. In countries like Mauritius and many others you can "own" slaves and people do. Today, some 18m people are enslaved through "bonded" labour in India. 2m in Pakistan. 1.5m in Bangladesh. 1.2m in Uzbekistan through forced labour slavery.

This is my point though. Why focus on the injustices of the past and ripping out statues that no one really looks at, when a significant proportion of people (more than were ever sent to the US) live an enslaved existence TODAY in the world.  Our efforts and our concerns should be about wiping the practice out in the world today, not wiping out history. History is what happened and we cannot change the facts. We can cover it up. We can beautify, romanticise, or even try to justify past acts and practices. But for what reason? What difference will it really make? If we really want to see change. If we really want to make a difference. Then we need to enact change for today, and lay the foundations for  better tomorrow.

Or of course we can just look back over 300 years and cry "woe is me".

[Barrykearley]

Yes - you are absolutely correct @C8RKH. The Middle Eastern countries and African ones have an appalling record on this in modern times. However if you contextualise that picture to the uk - then it’s absolutely true - and you only need to “protest” in the uk for things that the government of the country can change.

 

[C8RKH]

You are correct @Barrykearley.  

It's getting to the point that the protests now have nothing to do with George and they never had anything to do with the UK current situation.

 

[PaulCP]

My fear is that if this continues there could be mass fighting at future protests. There’s plenty of yobs who will be looking for an excuse/opportunity to riot and fight with protesters. The mindless idiots who used to frequent football years ago are still around

It wouldn’t surprise me if racism doesn’t increase amongst a few because of the uneducated views and actions of the protest organisers, which will become more intolerable to our society as the days go on.

You are correct Andy, it now has nothing to do with what happened in the US and is probably not what the original U.K. protest organisers wanted. As always these protest get taken over by professional activists.

Also, given that the BAME community are supposed to be more susceptible to the virus and have criticised the govt over their plight, why are many of that community happy to protest ignoring social distancing etc.