Cold Start problems

[gingerjimi]

Hi, I have a 1990 NA esprit which only seems to like the summer. In the summer she starts easily and runs fine but in colder spring or autumn days she sometimes takes a few goes to start and she will also stall if you leave her ticking over for more than about 30 seconds. This seams to happen if I use full, partial or no choke. In the winter she can take several minutes before she even fires, then several more minutes of firing/running for a few seconds before i can actually get her to run continuously, and then i have to keep my foot on the throttle for several minutes. All the spark plugs seem to be the proper colour. I guess I just need to give the carbs a good clean and check over though, or is there something else that I should investigate? Ps, I changed the battery last year and she's stored in a dry but unheated garage? Should I just move to Spain??

Thanks

James

[CarBuff]

Do the UK NA cars incorporate a Throttle Jack? (vacuum actuator that pulls on the linkage when needed)

This could be inop, or you could have a vacuum leak that reduces its effectiveness.

 

If you have A/C, does the idle increase when engaged?

Edited January 1, 2021 by CarBuff

[Escape]

You should check if the choke is still connected and properly set-up. It sounds like it isn't doing much.

Filip

[jonwat]

I owned 2 NA S3's & a carbed Stevens Turbo all of which would start on the coldest of mornings with just a full press on the pedal & then drive as normal so I'd suggest getting the carbs off & giving them a good overhaul.

FYI they don't have a choke, it's a starting device. 

[gingerjimi]

Hi, Thanks for the replies. I don't think it has a throttle jack. I think they are probably not on the carb cars? I've emailed a couple of websites. 1 isn't sure and I'm waiting for a reply from another. It doesn't have AC though. 

I have always been told not to use the choke/starting device but to use 4-5 squirts of the throttle. However I had been trying to use the choke when I found it wasn't starting. I've always found the choke to stop solidly so presumed it was opening fully, but i checked the travel today and found it was only opening about 1/4 of the way. I've lubed it up a lot and found it started after a few attempts. 1 minute i think it didn't have enough petrol and the next it was definitely flooded so hopefully i'll get the knack of it and won't need to take the carbs of for a few more years.

Thanks

James

 

[Escape]

11 hours ago, jonwat said:

FYI they don't have a choke, it's a starting device. 

Carbs aren't my strong point, so I certainly don't want to start an argument. What would be the difference between a choke and starting device? The Stevens NA from a friend I drove a couple of times definitely had a button labeled like a choke and acting as one.

@gingerjimi it does take some getting used to getting it just right to start easily and idle smoothly. At least that's my experience on the Excel, which I think has the exact same setup. I never quite managed with just a few pumps of the pedal.

It sounds like yours already got a lot better, so you're probably on the right track. 😉 Which means you can continue to use your Esprit and things are likely to get even better. Having a look at the carbs might give further improvement, also when driving.

Filip

[andydclements]

It's one of those situations where the terms most commonly sued is incorrect and we often just ignore it (e.g. somebody incorrectly states weight in kg, that's Mass, weight is in Newtons, but we generally accept the statement.). In this case, the device is a fuel-air enrichment system for the purposes of starting.

Whilst I can start my NAs (S3 Esprit, various Excels) on either a few pumps or the fuel enrichment system, I've found that if I need to drive almost straight away and do so on low revs then the fuel enrichment system gets a more even running for the first 30 seconds or so, but if I have the opportunity to stand and warm up the engine for a minute or two, then few pumps is easier to start and involves less adjustments whilst driving.

[jonwat]

13 hours ago, gingerjimi said:

Hi, Thanks for the replies. I don't think it has a throttle jack. I think they are probably not on the carb cars?

I have always been told not to use the choke/starting device but to use 4-5 squirts of the throttle. However I had been trying to use the choke when I found it wasn't starting. I've always found the choke to stop solidly so presumed it was opening fully, but i checked the travel today and found it was only opening about 1/4 of the way. I've lubed it up a lot and found it started after a few attempts. 1 minute i think it didn't have enough petrol and the next it was definitely flooded so hopefully i'll get the knack of it and won't need to take the carbs of for a few more years.

Thanks

James

 

The throttle jack operates when the air con is on as it puts extra load on the engine which causes it to stall when idling. So, if you have air con fitted it would have had a throttle jack fitted when it left the factory.

Four to five pumps on the pedal is too many & would explain why the plugs were wet. 😃

[jonwat]

11 hours ago, Escape said:

 What would be the difference between a choke and starting device? 

A choke is like a second butterfly, when operated it closes so restricting or choking the air flow forcing extra fuel to be drawn in, enriching the mixture in order to ease starting. A starting device opens another pathway for extra fuel to do the same. 😃

[DaKa]

I reported something similar with 'cold' start that only appeared after my carbs were refurbished.

I did not have a choke cable connected and I think for me the lubrication meant the choke position, which had likely seized into its position of being slightly on, is now fully off.

In the summer the accelerator pump method works, but in winter my NA definitely requires a little bit of choke.

However, once started, even for a few seconds, no further choke is required, just a little accelerator. It can be turned off and restarted immediately without choke.

P.S. Still await a picture of a choke cable connected inside cabin on N/A - I'm told its in the centre console?

[gingerjimi]

Hi,

Thanks for the help guys. Mine must be running a bit lean then as I have to keep the revs up for quite a few minutes in spring/autumn mornings before she runs fine. I daren't pull out of a junction if anything is coming until she's fully warm. I use a couple of squirts of the throttle in the summer, then 4-5 in spring/autumn and then the no starting issue in the winter for several minnutes (hopefully this is now sorted), but the plugs look good to me. Not hot/dry or sooty either. 

Thanks for heads up on the choke/starting device. I even had a carb specialist calling them chokes when he set up the twin dellortos I fitted on my spit (produces great sound). Basically it does the same job of enriching the fuel/air mixture but by doing it the other way around. What should the SI units be for this mixture though? 😛 

Thanks

James

 

[gingerjimi]

Here’s the location of my starting device cable if it helps @DaKa

[DaKa]

Much appreciated pic - that's about where I would expect to see it, rather than the centre console, but if I only find a generic choke cable I may hide it somewhere else?

Steering wheel nice - is that off an earlier model?

[gingerjimi]

No Worries for the pic. . I'd guess you could get a proper choke cable from https://www.pnmparts.co.uk/ 

As far as I know it's standard on the x180. Then they had airbags form the S4 onwards, but i've only been in my esprit so it's only from pictures and comments i've seen from other people.