Is electric really the answer?

[MPx]

16 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Final point, what I would like to know is how the government intend to charge for EV usage. In the UK, VED (road tax) is their biggest single income and one thing we can all agree on, they won't let that go.

Some interesting points there, many I agree with, but several opinions were presented as "facts" that actually aren't facts.  Take the VED point - its clearly nowhere near their biggest single income.  It will be dwarfed by what the gov makes from Duty+VAT on fuel let alone other areas outside transport.  But you're right they will have to come up with things to maintain their tax take when VED / Fuel Duty etc no longer deliver.   

[eUKenGB]

Yes true, I did kinda lump all roads income into one and shouldn't have referred to it all as VED, but I do believe that they make more from the roads than any other single source. In any case, it wasn't meant to be deceptive. My point being that as things are currently structured, if everyone went EV, they would lose a massive amount and they cannot let that happen. I'd like to know how they plan to deal with that and how they will charge EV usage.

[pete]

tolls?

[scotty435]

Thanks for your input into this like you said emotionally charged topic. You’re knowledge on this topic seems very well informed and makes a great read. Get ready for a barrage hostile replies from the usual suspects.

[KAS-118]

I just think what's happening now demonstrates 1, or maybe 2, of the advantages of electric vehicles.

1) You don't have to go out to a petrol station and 'fill up'. At the moment its virtually impossible to get a supermarket home delivery, and you're limited to the quantity of food that you can buy - hence have to do more trips to the supermarkets. That means sooner or later I'm going to have to fill up. Although I have to go out, at least at most supermarkets 'social distancing' is well controlled - when I last went to a petrol station it wasn't. Frankly, I'd much prefer the ability to just return home and plug in - without the worry of having to eventually go out to another petrol station again; and

2) Although the early Tesla's did have some reliability and quality issues - in general there are less major mechanical components in an electric vehicle, than a petrol one - so less to go wrong and prevent the car being driven. Although I accept critical mechanical failure is comparatively rare, its still more likely in a Petrol Engine rather than Electric.

As for the issue of sound, it seems even Petrol cars are becoming 'artificially enhanced' in the sound they make nowadays. If it really does matter to someone that much then this shows what can be done https://insideevs.com/news/403281/tesla-model-3-lamborghini-sounds 

[eUKenGB]

3 hours ago, KAS-118 said:

...

2) Although the early Tesla's did have some reliability and quality issues - in general there are less major mechanical components in an electric vehicle, than a petrol one - so less to go wrong and prevent the car being driven. Although I accept critical mechanical failure is comparatively rare, its still more likely in a Petrol Engine rather than Electric.

...

Tesla is a very interesting case. Basically they are a tech company who started to build cars and as such struggled with the car manufacturing processes due to their inexperience of that. Their tech however is good and more advanced than other auto manufacturers and they are prepared to do things differently. But although those other manufacturers are lagging behind at the tech level, their car manufacturing expertise has been honed virtually to perfection. So there are 2 very different situations with Tesla vs the rest of the industry.

To their credit, Tesla is working hard to overcome their manufacturing inexperience and the others are of course racing to try and improve their tech. Eventually there will be some levelling out, but it's interesting to watch it all unfold.

I do rather admire Tesla, but not so much their cars. I think there are good reasons why a car traditionally has the main information display right in front of the driver - because that's where it works best. Just trying to use what is basically an iPad stuck to the middle of the dash, as the sole display and control interface I believe is fundamentally wrong. Plus I think their styling leaves a lot to be desired.

Having said all that, I do rather fancy the Cybertruck. That design is so way out that I can accept that single display/control panel and it would sure be handy for shifting around my motorcycle stuff (ironically all ICE). 😀

As KAS said above, there is much less mechanically to go wrong in an electric car. An electric motor has a couple of bearings, but that's it. Compare that to the complexity of a modern multi-cylinder ICE. It's a wonder that they work at all, but it took 120 years of development. What will batteries be like in another 100 years.

So hugely reduced maintenance requirements is another big plus for electric power. The actual motor and all associated electronics should need none, so that pretty much just leaves tyres and brakes. Obviously tyres will need to be replaced (possibly more often if you constantly avail yourself of the huge torque available from the electric motor), but brakes? Not so much. With strong regenerative braking, there is very little need to use the brakes at all and if you've not experienced one pedal driving in an electric car, you've missed a treat. Accelerating and braking for each corner, just using the accelerator pedal is a fantastic way to drive, even on country roads with quite heavy braking required into the corners during a 'spirited' drive. It's fun, it really is. Even bringing the car to a complete stop is possible, although maybe not implemented in a particular car. For on-track use, brakes certainly also needed, but on the roads, hardly at all, so brake component wear will be greatly reduced.

One has to wonder what the manufacturers will dream up as an excuse to force owners to take the car back to the dealer.

Edited April 7, 2020 by eUKenGB

[C8RKH]

I wasn't aware that the recycling of Lithium was a full on industry as you suggested @eUKenGB   Where is this happening in the UK right now? I'd be interested to know from an investment perspective as much as antyinhg else.

I was under the impression that the latest thinking was around re-using, as opposed to recycling the core elements through a hierarchy of applications for batteries. There are many significant issues with the processes required for lithium extraction and recycling from batteries, and indeed, one of the biggest "wastes" in the cycle is surely the energy that is lost as a result of the original battery manufacture, which in itself, is not inconsiderable and could be likened, but not in an extreme way, to the energy costs of extracting hydrogen.

I do agree with you that electrical propulsion systems /engines are the way forwards, but I do feel that BEV will be "a component" of the fuel used to power tomorrows transport, not the only option.

You provided an interesting read, but like everyone's perspective, including my own, it was skewed in the favour of the point you were making /supporting. Welcome to the debate! :)

[eUKenGB]

I'm afraid I'm no expert on battery re-cycling. I wasn't stating that the recycling of Lithium was a 'full on industry' as you put it, merely pointing out that it is possible and being done rather than all batteries just being thrown into landfill which is the popular belief. However I have no specific knowledge of where it is being done, if at all in the UK, nor how you might invest in it. It is still early days with relatively few EV batteries needing recycling yet, but that is going to increase massively over the next few years and there is much research being conducted on how to improve the recovery rates of the constituent elements. But part of the battery development process also involves how to improve their recyclability. New innovations with better and safer electrolytes is a case in point as they currently are the biggest hazard with regard to safety. However, new electrolyte formulas based on inorganic solutions promise to improve or even solve that.

Also, new battery tech that can improve or solve the degradation process inherent in today's cells reduces the whole recycling problem anyway. There are already battery technologies that do not degrade in use, but sadly not suitable for EVs - yet anyway.

As you say Andy, the best form of recycling is re-use and that is also being studied. The idea of home generation is very attractive, reducing or eliminating the cost of energy for that home. Solar and wind can both be used in a domestic environment, but are heavily subject to local weather conditions and again, that's where batteries can help. If a home has its own electricity generation capability and a battery bank to store it when being produced faster than being used and then release that power e.g. at night when there would be no solar generation, that home can be self sustaining. Even producing some surplus that can be fed back to the grid. Possibly even for some payment. This not only makes financial sense for the home owner (and Elon Musk), but also reduces the load on the grid so it perhaps doesn't need the massive infrastructure upgrade in order to supply power for all the new electric vehicles, with much of that power being locally generated. But of course, it needs batteries to function, although not with the same efficiency requirements as for EVs. So re-purposing old EV batteries for grid storage is ideal and already being done. The lower energy density is not such an issue for this local grid storage rather than in an actual EV so it's a good re-use of old EV batteries.

But ultimately they need to be recycled and generally need to be 'flattened' first, i.e. drain them of all power which is a terrible waste if all that power is not used productively. It occurs to me they could simply drain old batteries by using them to electrolyse water to extract hydrogen which can then be used for hydrogen powered vehicles, which may well gain a foothold in our future transportation. In the same vein they are already looking at utilising some power from off-shore wind farms to produce hydrogen by electrolysis of the (obviously readily available) water.

Having said that, the BMW hydrogen project cars store hydrogen at high pressure and very low temperature, in basically a special vacuum flask. With the massive insulation that provides, the hydrogen stays cold for quite a long time. But as it slowly warms, the excess pressure has to be vented to atmosphere (or explode). Worse than any leakage I mentioned before, this causes those cars to lose their entire tank of hydrogen fuel in 17 days. So full to empty in only a few days even if not used.

For fuel cell vehicles they have developed a way to store hydrogen over some special (ceramic?) materials that like to hold on to it, so it can be stored at room temperature and more reasonable pressure. However, I don't see the energy density of hydrogen as stored in a vehicle massively improving, due to the fundamental laws of physics, but battery technology will almost certainly increase energy density 2 or 3 fold in our lifetime. Undoubtedly with improvements in recyclability too as that does need improving.

Ultimately, yes for EVs I believe batteries will win out over hydrogen. With improving battery technology, for me it makes the most sense and I really love the idea of being able to make my own car fuel at home - I won't be doing that with hydrogen. But I also believe hydrogen will have its uses.

On a different note, a few years ago I was amazed to find out that a modern nuclear sub is built around a sealed for life power system. It is installed as the sub is built and never changed in the lifetime of the vessel. No refuelling - ever. Wouldn't that be great for cars. 😀

Edited April 7, 2020 by Bibs

[KAS-118]

On 07/04/2020 at 19:06, eUKenGB said:

..............

Having said that, the BMW hydrogen project cars store hydrogen at high pressure and very low temperature, in basically a special vacuum flask. With the massive insulation that provides, the hydrogen stays cold for quite a long time. But as it slowly warms, the excess pressure has to be vented to atmosphere (or explode). Worse than any leakage I mentioned before, this causes those cars to lose their entire tank of hydrogen fuel in 17 days. So full to empty in only a few days even if not used.

For fuel cell vehicles they have developed a way to store hydrogen over some special (ceramic?) materials that like to hold on to it, so it can be stored at room temperature and more reasonable pressure. However, I don't see the energy density of hydrogen as stored in a vehicle massively improving, due to the fundamental laws of physics, but battery technology will almost certainly increase energy density 2 or 3 fold in our lifetime. Undoubtedly with improvements in recyclability too as that does need improving.

Ultimately, yes for EVs I believe batteries will win out over hydrogen. With improving battery technology, for me it makes the most sense and I really love the idea of being able to make my own car fuel at home - I won't be doing that with hydrogen. But I also believe hydrogen will have its uses.

On a different note, a few years ago I was amazed to find out that a modern nuclear sub is built around a sealed for life power system. It is installed as the sub is built and never changed in the lifetime of the vessel. No refuelling - ever. Wouldn't that be great for cars. 😀

I believe the current BMW Hydrogen proposal is to use 2Nr 700 bar tanks. I'm not aware how much they weigh, but my experience (from 232 Bar Scuba tanks) is that they're going to be quite heavy - especially as BMW say that they've beed designed to survive crashes intact (I can but only imagine what would happen when something containing a pressure of 700 bar is punctured). 

So, although the Battery pack for an Electric Vehicle is heavy, I'm not sure that a Hydrogen Fuel cell system is going to be lighter, indeed it may well be heavier.

However, what is ascertainable is the packaging of the 2 systems. 

I attach photo's of the current BMW Hydrogen Fuel Cell platform - showing its 2 Tanks. To me they seem quite intrusive - and take a fair bit of space.

I also attach a photo showing Audi's Battery EV Platforms. The battery pack is incorporated in the floor and hardily noticeable - providing the interior of the car with much more useable space.

Now, when you consider how these are going to be 'refuelled' - the electric 'grid' exits around us at the moment. Yes, it will need to be 'upgraded' to cope with everyone having an EV, but I'd hypothesise that that's going to be a lot easier to do than to store enough Hydrogen to cope with everyone having a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car. You only have to look at the BMW Platform to see the 'bulk' require to fuel 1 car - and that's stored at 700 bar; imagine what size storage tanks a fairly busy fuel station would need!?

Factor in as well that Electric is comparatively easy to 'transport' - the bulk of hydrogen is far less so. 

You then have the convenience factor, most people would be able to recharge 'at home' - whereas the Hydrogen Fuel Cell model relies on the (inconvenient, and IMHO, outdated) concept of having to go out of your way to attend a fuel station (even although, admittedly, the actual 'filling' time of a hydrogen fuel tank is relatively quicker).

So the real disadvantage is range.

Firstly, say an average range for Battery Electric Vehicles is 200 miles (Tesla are supposed to be bring out a 400 mile version soon - but I believe that merely relies on a bigger battery pack rather than any significant improvement in battery technology) and say an average journey speed is 50mph - well that's 4 hours of driving. Frankly, for safety sakes, a driver should really be thinking about a 'break' after that period. With a reasonably fast charger you could get an 80% charge in 30 minutes - giving you another 160 miles or 3 hours).

So really, even with todays (young) battery and charging technology, the range shouldn't really be an issue for the vast majority of the people the vast majority of the time - and for those that it is, we still have petrol and diesel for another 12 years - by which time I'd hazard a bet that not only will the range of BEV's be significantly greater; the Charging times will be significantly faster. 

 

 

 

[pete]

happen to watch a wheeler dealer last night and mike brewer bought ,in america, an electric maserati bi turbo that had been converted by its original owner. To someone like me who has zero knowledge of how these things work it was a very interesting programme. Probably is available on the internet somewhere

[Neal H]

Fast charging is great but what damage does it do to the batteries? If you’re fast charging every day or so, what would that mean for the battery life expectancy? If in the future you’re buying a used EV wouldn’t you want to know its charging history given that new battery packs must cost multiple thousands of pounds.

[eUKenGB]

If any battery is charged faster than it can handle, then yes it can be damaged, but the vehicle's charging system will (or should anyway) only allow it to charge at a rate the batteries can deal with. So battery technology needs to improve to allow faster re-charge times without damage and there are several new technologies on the horizon that look promising in this regard.

Are Tesla not already claiming that they will soon be selling cars with batteries that will last half a million miles before possibly needing replacement. In theory it's possible for a battery to work forever, so the charge/drain cycle does nothing except move the electrons around. But that's still beyond the current horizon I suspect.

Seems to me that once an EV can get 500 miles on 30 minutes of charge time, that dispenses with almost all arguments against BEVs.

[Neal H]

13 minutes ago, eUKenGB said:

Seems to me that once an EV can get 500 miles on 30 minutes of charge time, that dispenses with almost all arguments against BEVs.

Indeed. If this becomes reality then BEV becomes a no-brainer. Hopefully the technology achieves this within the next ten years. Right now, I think it’s hard to make a case for an electric car over IC. I’ll bet the majority of current BEV owners also have access to an IC vehicle!

[KAS-118]

4 hours ago, eUKenGB said:

.....Are Tesla not already claiming that they will soon be selling cars with batteries that will last half a million miles before possibly needing replacement. In theory it's possible for a battery to work forever, so the charge/drain cycle does nothing except move the electrons around. But that's still beyond the current horizon I suspect.

Currently, the Warranty for the Battery for a Tesla 3 is 8 years or 120k miles.

However, its claimed they 'should' last 500k miles now - and Musk was claiming they would shortly last 1 Million https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-soon-have-a-battery-that-can-last-a-million-miles/

Obviously its one thing for a manufacturer to claim something - and another thing to actually achieve it.

For the long Range Y model, Tesla are claiming a range of 336 miles now - with another 168 miles achievable after a 15min Charge.

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by KAS-118

[Neal H]

Tesla is aimed at the top end of the market though. The Model Y should be available in the U.K. in 2022 and the version producing those numbers will cost what? £60k?

Once manufacturers are producing those numbers in vehicles costing £15k to £30k then they’ll start to be a realistic option for many users rather than just being a novelty item for those who can afford them.

2035 isn’t that far away and hopefully huge steps will be made in the next 10 years.

[C8RKH]

I agree - the BEV's are OK but more time is needed to get them to the price and range point needed.  Funny, when you mention the alternatives to BEV's you always get a load of abuse about how batteries will be better IN THE FUTURE and how super fast charging will IN THE FUTURE give you and x and y and how graphene will be the saviour IN THE FUTURE etc etc. Where the alternatives are discounted by the same people as they are "not fully developed" or too expensive now and TOO FAR IN THE FUTURE.  The double standards really does crack me up.

[eUKenGB]

31 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I agree - the BEV's are OK but more time is needed to get them to the price and range point needed.  Funny, when you mention the alternatives to BEV's you always get a load of abuse about how batteries will be better IN THE FUTURE and how super fast charging will IN THE FUTURE give you and x and y and how graphene will be the saviour IN THE FUTURE etc etc. Where the alternatives are discounted by the same people as they are "not fully developed" or too expensive now and TOO FAR IN THE FUTURE.  The double standards really does crack me up.

I hope you're not accusing me of double standards. 😉

Battery technology will certainly get way better "IN THE FUTURE", but it's already good enough to be viable for most use cases. By alternatives, I guess you mean hydrogen as what else is there? But there are problems with its use as a fuel that are less likely to get much better "IN THE FUTURE" due to the laws of physics.

I'm looking forward to the micro fission reactor. Small enough to easily fit in a car and sealed for life with all the energy that will ever be required for that vehicle. No refuelling or recharging - ever.

Ok I made that up, but it's not completely beyond possibility. Sadly, I very much doubt in my lifetime.

[DarrylV8]

If this has been mentioned previously then I’ve missed it, what was the range of the Tesla/Elise roadster and what was the recharge time to 80%. 12+ years ago, god time has flown by

Sue remembers being in our Elise sc coming off M1 j27 and pretty much being left as though the handbrake was on

sorry you can get back on topic now, but if anyone knows the numbers for tomorrow night please pm me!

[Bibs]

@alan might be able to help with the figures Darryl.  

[KAS-118]

6 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I agree - the BEV's are OK but more time is needed to get them to the price and range point needed.  Funny, when you mention the alternatives to BEV's you always get a load of abuse about how batteries will be better IN THE FUTURE and how super fast charging will IN THE FUTURE give you and x and y and how graphene will be the saviour IN THE FUTURE etc etc. Where the alternatives are discounted by the same people as they are "not fully developed" or too expensive now and TOO FAR IN THE FUTURE.  The double standards really does crack me up.

Perhaps you should point out the "abuse" you got about mentioning the alternatives! - as it good to see that 'Double Standards' crack you up - when you resort to calling people "muppets" and other insults at the drop of a hat - then make yourself out to be 'the victim'  🙄  

As for improvements in range etc of BEV's that's happening now, or in the NEAR future. 

However, if your criticism of BEV's are that these improvements are in the future - then the same can be said about Hydrogen fuels cells - that have hardly any infrastructure to support them - although of course that might eventually happen - in the FUTURE 🙄

Anyway - back to some performance improvements for BEV's - impressive really how a certain manufacturer has added 40bhp at the time of 'launching the vehicle. https://gearpatrol.com/2020/04/10/tesla-model-s-model-x-performance-launch-mode-cheetah-stance/ all done over the air with no visit to a garage necessary.

Just for the avoidance of doubt - that improvement is happening now. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by KAS-118

[KAS-118]

3 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

If this has been mentioned previously then I’ve missed it, what was the range of the Tesla/Elise roadster and what was the recharge time to 80%. 12+ years ago, god time has flown by

Sue remembers being in our Elise sc coming off M1 j27 and pretty much being left as though the handbrake was on

sorry you can get back on topic now, but if anyone knows the numbers for tomorrow night please pm me!

The range was claimed to be 244 miles - but when Autocar tested it they reckoned it was more like 150 miles https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/tesla/roadster-2008-2012/mpg

This is the Wikipedia entry that confirms the same claimed range https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster_(2008)

Edited April 10, 2020 by KAS-118

[KAS-118]

8 hours ago, Neal H said:

Tesla is aimed at the top end of the market though. The Model Y should be available in the U.K. in 2022 and the version producing those numbers will cost what? £60k?

Once manufacturers are producing those numbers in vehicles costing £15k to £30k then they’ll start to be a realistic option for many users rather than just being a novelty item for those who can afford them.

2035 isn’t that far away and hopefully huge steps will be made in the next 10 years.

I quite agree with you the Tesla are at the 'top' end of the market - but then their performance figures are in Supercar territory.

There are cheaper Electric vehicles available at the moment.The MG ZS EV is less than £30k (actually starts at just over £25k), has a 0-60 mph time of 7.1 secs and a Combined range of 163 miles and a City Range of 231 miles.

The VW E-Up and Skoda Citigo are available at less than £20k (after Government grant) - but do have a reduced range of 160 miles. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by KAS-118

[C8RKH]

@DarrylV8 the original Tesla Roadster was 0-62 in 3.7 or 3.9s depending on spec, so very quick for its day and it had a c125mph top speed. Recharging speed to full with the best available charger at that time (really leading edge) was 4 hours, but with most "home kits" of the time it could be as long as 48 hours! However 14 years ago it was an $80-140k car though!!! Not surprised it smoked your Elise to be honest.

 

[KAS-118]

5 hours ago, DarrylV8 said:

If this has been mentioned previously then I’ve missed it, what was the range of the Tesla/Elise roadster and what was the recharge time to 80%. 12+ years ago, god time has flown by

Sue remembers being in our Elise sc coming off M1 j27 and pretty much being left as though the handbrake was on

sorry you can get back on topic now, but if anyone knows the numbers for tomorrow night please pm me!

If you think the Tesla Roadster had impressive performance - you might be interested too see how things have moved on over the years 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqGxXfg3sZY

[alan]

On 10/04/2020 at 22:44, DarrylV8 said:

If this has been mentioned previously then I’ve missed it, what was the range of the Tesla/Elise roadster and what was the recharge time to 80%. 12+ years ago, god time has flown by

Sue remembers being in our Elise sc coming off M1 j27 and pretty much being left as though the handbrake was on

sorry you can get back on topic now, but if anyone knows the numbers for tomorrow night please pm me!

 

Official range is 244 miles but driving normally (ie as if you stole it) the real world range is more like 150.   Mine is 10 years old and 100K, range has dropped by perhaps 10 miles.  

It still does 0 to 60 in sub 4 seconds from every junction & traffic light. 

You ask what the charge time to 80% is .  Not easy to answer - if the car was totally flat then you need to charge to 80% of the 53kWh capacity.  To add 42.4 kWh to get 80% will take about 6 hours on a typical 32A (7.2kW) home charger.  There are a few 70A chargers around which will do it in 2.5 hours.  In reality like all EVs you just plug it in at night and in the morning its full.