Bahar Suspended

[Bibs]

Bland & supercar don't go hand in hand...

[dodgy]

the MJK Esprit styling was as bland as the Evora's

 

can anyone post a photo of this Esprit please?

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

Bland & supercar don't go hand in hand...

Some people accuse the MP4-12C of being bland, which I suppose it could be compared to the Lambo's and Fessa. I like to think of it as restrained and rather classy, but I still can't afford one! 

[Tallic]

yes, a photo of the Esprit in question would be nice.

[andydclements]

Bland & supercar don't go hand in hand...

But there is bland and supercar bland. The Evora doesn't have such extreme styling that it goes out of fashion 12-24 months after initial design but it's not so bland as to blend in with a group of family hatchbacks. Any future Lotus design would also have to be of the moment but not so extreme as to need a re-design 1 year after release.

[Exploded]

But the MJK Esprit styling was as bland as the Evora's is and would most likely have suffered from similar dire sales. No wonder Bahar wanted to start again.

 

 

If I recall correctly, MJK pushed the Evora and cancelled the V6 Exige development. Y'know, the car which was rejuvenated under Bahar's tenure and now has a waiting list of real customers and not a fleet load of "Manager" cars.

 

Go wash your mouth, dude! That Exige V6 was cancelled by Bahar and his team, he cancelled f*cking EVERYTHING!

Only at very last grasp, as he was finally back for a day with his 2 feet on planet earth, he started to realize all the money from the loan was virtually spent and he still needed at LEAST an extra £250 million to bring the very first model to production. As a drowning person Bahar and his team then grabbed back to Exige V6... Before the Exige V6 was NEVER on their cards!!!!

Try to get the facts straight!

[JAWS]

But the MJK Esprit styling was as bland as the Evora's is and would most likely have suffered from similar dire sales. No wonder Bahar wanted to start again.

 

 

If I recall correctly, MJK pushed the Evora and cancelled the V6 Exige development. Y'know, the car which was rejuvenated under Bahar's tenure and now has a waiting list of real customers and not a fleet load of "Manager" cars.

You have your information very wrong. MJK didn't cancel the V6 Exige, Bahar did but then had to reinstate it to try and recover some of his escalating/out of control expenditure. Also MJK was responsible for canning MSC due it not being good enough and putting emphasis on the Evora. Unfortunately it was launchedat the height of the recession.....

[Advantage]

I doff my cap and bow humbly to your more accurate information.

[Exploded]

And you should!

[fmxa]

FMXA. They made £1.5 Million for the first profit in 10 years. And with no loans or debts this was pure profit, not an interest payment as it would have been and is now under Bahar! Far be it for me to say what Lotus were doing under MJK, it's not like I knew anything. But even Car magazine had articles on MJK's Lotus 5 yr plan!

 

A select few, including members here had already seen the New Esprit, which under MJK would have been out a year ago! There was a brand new Elise and Exige next followed by a new "Supercar" in 2015! Add in to that the 211 and a planned collaboration model then if anything MJK's team would have had a better line up than Bahars plan!! And it was perfectly feasible unlike the aforementioned plan!

 

At least 3 of those cars (the New Elise, Evora and Esprit) would have been homologated for the USA.

 

I do agree the F1 side was a good move but when you consider that MJK spent only £80 million on a new Model (Evora) it seems a big chunk.

 

I saw the MSC clay in the studio around 2007 or 2008 (and the drawing of the convertible was truly stunning), but to think the original 5 year plan models would have been better than the DB cars is nuts ...  BTW I have the greatest respect for your dad and without him I doubt Lotus cars would even exist today.

[Exploded]

I saw the MSC clay in the studio around 2007 or 2008 (and the drawing of the convertible was truly stunning), but to think the original 5 year plan models would have been better than the DB cars is nuts ...  BTW I have the greatest respect for your dad and without him I doubt Lotus cars would even exist today.

 

I disagree, the 5 year plan was the only plan I ever heard for Lotus, that had sufficient financial funding. It was not a plan with only IFs and clay models, but a workable plan which would lead into a full line up of cars.

I'm really starting to get annoyed of people claiming in here that Bahar actually had a good plan, except from the F1 and the new facilities in Hethel. So to 80% of this forum members please sum up what Bahar did good or succeed in and what Lotus is benefiting from today. I can't wait to see the list!

Edited March 21, 2013 by Exploded

[Bibs]

[Snoopy1969]

I disagree, the 5 year plan was the only plan I ever heard for Lotus, that had sufficient financial funding. It was not a plan with only IFs and clay models, but a workable plan which would lead into a full line up of cars.

I'm really starting to get annoyed of people claiming in here that Bahar actually had a good plan, except from the F1 and the new facilities in Hethel. So to 80% of this forum members please sum up what Bahar did good or succeed in and what Lotus is benefiting from today. I can't wait to see the list!

I want to add a question :

Is there any company that had said - after DB "left" / was fired etc.- we miss that guy because he did a good job and the results of his work are still with us?

 

In my eyes the Evora is such a great product that is underrated totally and was buried by DB by the "fantastic 5 car future" - neglecting the existing cars in production was a huge mistake and the aspects relating to the "story" of the introduction of the Exige S mentioned by JAWS fit to the whole picture unfortunately. For our german speaking members I would like to recommend an article on Bahar of german Magazine "Zeit" from 2009 that contains some critical aspects:

http://www.zeit.de/2009/39/Bahar-39

[Mark Blanchard]

The "bland" MJK Esprit design is the top picture on this page:

http://www.lotusespritturbo.com/Development_of_the_New_Lotus_Esprit.htm

[TBD]

The "bland" MJK Esprit design is the top picture on this page:

http://www.lotusespritturbo.com/Development_of_the_New_Lotus_Esprit.htm

I'm glad that one never saw the light of day. That front is hideous.Takes all the weak point of the Evora design and mixes them with a bit of Lambo

 

Donato Coco's version was definitively much better.

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

I don't mind the front, it's not that far removed from the MP4-12C, the back gets a little bland over the rear wheels but it show promise. Shame but I can't see anything baring the name 'Esprit' coming out of Hethel anytime soon.... 

[Günter]

the silver one looks like if there was a plan for further PSA sourced parts swapped over for the Esprit ? 

..see the door 'handles' (or the lack of them)..just like old Renault/Peugeot of mid 1990 years from the styling ??

 

the aerodynamics with only mediumsize side ports in front of the wheels is  interesting, especially if you see that there are no hughe other intakes & outlets visible  -how does this work and where is the feed for the radiator(s) 

[mentionthat physical efficiency of a combustion engine in those days of the project was still max. of 38-40%  ..so if you want to have a wheeloutput of 350hp from lets say maybe a big 5L engine block, there is around 525hp more to control just on the thermal side  ..where does that go ? ]

Edited March 22, 2013 by Günter

[Bloodnok]

I don't mind the MJK Esprit. It's not a wild design, but I don't think that's a bad thing. The Esprit has always been a fairly straight forward and recognizable design and I think that's why it still looks great today over it's different iterations. I think it would be a mistake for Lotus to aim for cars like the MP4-12C or the F458. I think they would be better suited going after the 911 market with an Esprit model. One with similar performance and an interior you can take the wife/gf out in without having to explain why it looks like it isn't finished. The 911 has succeeded without going over top in it's design, and everyone instantly recognizes the car and knows who makes it (something you'll rarely find in the with regards to Lotus in the US). If they want to compete with cars like the 458 I think they'd need a new model, one that can have its own design philosophy.

 

It's frustrating that DRB have been so silent on the future of Lotus. I truly hope they're actually working out how to secure Lotus's future as a company and will come out with their plans soon, and those plans better involve bringing more cars to the US damnit.

[fmxa]

The convertible was truly stunning (at least looking at the sketch/drawing) 

[chandrew]

I think we went from an organization / leadership which didn't understand marketing (and I use that in the widest sense, to include aspects such as product management, market research etc) to one that only seemed to understand marketing.

 

Bahar would have understood what the supercar buyer wanted from his time in Ferrari.  I suspect he had masses of data showing that nobody wanted a mid-engined 2+2 (which is probably why the Mondial didn't have a successor).

 

I think he seemed a good marketing / product guy but he should never have been a CEO.  Much of the blame must go to Proton who didn't bring in the execution expertise.  Let's face it, we can see from Proton's lack of success that they can't even run their own shop well, which is why the government forced them into the hands of DRB.

 

The old team did get product out, but it was product that few wanted to buy. Sales targets aren't the same as actual sales and the Evora wasn't hitting the mark even at the beginning when sales are usually the highest. The quality level wasn't up to the level which buyers demand and as Jaguar has shown, the only way to counter a historical reputation for poor quality is to be better than your competition.  Still takes time though.

 

At the moment I just don't see how Lotus will be sustainable as a car company without a big global partner who also understands selling to consumers. They need someone who can bring not only resources but a proper distribution channel. Proton were never this partner - they didn't have the resources or expertise. 

[Stirling_Villeneuve]

I think they would be better suited going after the 911 market with an Esprit model. One with similar performance and an interior you can take the wife/gf out in without having to explain why it looks like it isn't finished.

McLaren have the P13 scheduled for 2015 aimed at the 911 market. Word is it'll take a lot from the MP4-12C, such as carbon chassis, gearbox and perhaps a NA version of the engine. 450bph for around £120k. 

[Snoopy1969]

"....

 

Bahar would have understood what the supercar buyer wanted from his time in Ferrari.  I suspect he had masses of data showing that nobody wanted a mid-engined 2+2 (which is probably why the Mondial didn't have a successor).

 

...."

I think - to be more specific - nobody wanted a 2+2 mid-engined car that is styled like the Mondial but a 2+2 in general is a plus over a two seater IF proper designed. Of course: It is very hard to design a proper 2+2 mid-engined car in my eyes. But the additional seats (for children, adults in emergency, luggage, pets(!)) make a lot of sense and are very useful. As Ferry Porsche said (and he build his cars (except special low production types) to this principle up to the nineties when the Boxster appeared): a 2+2 is always better because more practical. So the unique layout of the Evora, mid-engined, 2+2 (more useful than a 911 because you have a flat platform with no separeted back-seats) a n d a proper design seeems to be very underrated.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Snoopy1969

[Tallic]

Not sure of their financial ability, but maybe Mazda would be interested in Lotus. They could build a Lotus Elan from the new Miata. Then we can dream of yet another Esprit.

[fmxa]

I think we went from an organization / leadership which didn't understand marketing (and I use that in the widest sense, to include aspects such as product management, market research etc) to one that only seemed to understand marketing.

 

Bahar would have understood what the supercar buyer wanted from his time in Ferrari.  I suspect he had masses of data showing that nobody wanted a mid-engined 2+2 (which is probably why the Mondial didn't have a successor).

 

I think he seemed a good marketing / product guy but he should never have been a CEO.  Much of the blame must go to Proton who didn't bring in the execution expertise.  Let's face it, we can see from Proton's lack of success that they can't even run their own shop well, which is why the government forced them into the hands of DRB.

 

The old team did get product out, but it was product that few wanted to buy. Sales targets aren't the same as actual sales and the Evora wasn't hitting the mark even at the beginning when sales are usually the highest. The quality level wasn't up to the level which buyers demand and as Jaguar has shown, the only way to counter a historical reputation for poor quality is to be better than your competition.  Still takes time though.

 

At the moment I just don't see how Lotus will be sustainable as a car company without a big global partner who also understands selling to consumers. They need someone who can bring not only resources but a proper distribution channel. Proton were never this partner - they didn't have the resources or expertise. 

 

Spot on analysis, well put Andrew.

[Günter]

Evora was (is) just to high priced for the design/quality/image/performance & parts bin  ..that's at least my impression based on the 2009 press car testing there for us Forum guys in Hethel

 

-it is not a bad car in generall, and if someone says that nobody wants a 2+2 this sounds more like personal taste of his own

..if we think about downsizing with more compact engine conceptions, it is even more possible to place the engine central in the car -and still have a 2+2 conception. From point of dynamic overall balance this is not a bad thing, and from point of crash safety it is also a good way to have the luggage area first to each end, to form up an controled crumple area.

 

..there was the option to have a '2seater only' for the Evora, and the 911 is available too -as regular 2+2 and 2seater sports (GT3 models for example)

 

..the rear end of the Evora just looks to 'rubbish' with those lights and the wobbly wing , and to much like a rounded up Japaneese car of the late 90th

 

what I also see strange is -that in the US none knows who makes 'Lotus'

@Bloodhonk ..really ? 

..sounds more like the general social/cultural-ignorance there of US people, don't get me wrong

..it is not meant as an offence, just what we see over here from the 'so glorious global leader culture'   .

.if you as a civilisation export culture all around the globe it is clear that those people outside (we) know more from you, on the other hand it would be a good sign if you also show interest for the world around you, instead of just exporting Hollywood all around. 

 

Other point is:

there in the US, you can see that most people like to re-create the car to look like the newest model, and as 'special' and 'one of a kind' as possible   ..so I don't see why there should be more Evoras on the road -would that not make the car more 'usual' and non exotic or  rare ..therefore less valuable in the US ??