A bit of maintenance on my S4s.

[philip600]

Hi,

I have a few jobs that need doing on my S4s.

I was looking to get these done at a specialist but have decided to have a go at some of them myself ( with the help of my friend who is a mechanic )

This is the list of the jobs that definately need doing -

* Cambelt & auxilary belts require replacing.

* Oil leak from bellhousing ( suspect rear crank seal )

*Accumulator &/or pressure switch fault ( pump running every other press of pedal ) & pipe from reservoir to pump sweating fluid.

* Rear brake caliper sliding seals perished.

* Engine & gearbox oil replacing.

The slightly annoying thing is that just before I bought her she had the rear crank seal replaced & rear caliper seals done by a Lotus specialist ! I have also found out that said specialist has fitted a timing belt from a Peugeot which I understand fits but is not recommended ?

Anyway, I made a start today & got the boot floor out, this came out ok apart from a few rusted fasteners but I noticed the gear change linkage rubber boots are perished so looks like an upgrade kit required for these too.

I'll let you know how it is coming along but quick question. I understand it is possible to replace the clutch without removing the gearbox, if so, is it feasable to replace the rear crank seak this way too or do you need more access ?

Phil.

 

 

[Bibs]

You need to certainly move the gearbox back a decent amount to get at the clutch, although it can be done with it pretty close to where it lives without too much grief. You will have to be spot on with the clutch alignment and this isn't as easy with it still there. There's a topic about this in the clutch section currently being discussed, look in there.

[MartinL]

Philip, I have a new gear change kit that I never got round to fitting on the S4 if its of any help pm. me.

[Günter]

..The slightly annoying thing is that just before I bought her she had the rear crank seal replaced & rear caliper seals done by a Lotus specialist !

Phil.

..sounds more like it is only 'done on the paper' ..so who said it, the Lotus-specialist ..or the one who sold the car to you ? 

 

-the S4s does use ordinary Brembo rear callipers, so you can find the dust seals there in Ebay and on the ordinary parts-stores ..just watch out for Renault (Laguna for example) -and compare the drawings of pistons, brake pats & slide bushings

 

..if you have a crank seal to replace ...it is best to measure the distance (set-in) of the seal outer face in relation to the crank face (where the flywheel is mounted onto) and the cover plate that holds the sealing ring on the engine-block

..so that you have a change to slightly re-position the new sealing ring not exactly on the same surface area of the crank the old one was running in.

 

..other point is

-for a good leveled fit that is not tilted to the rear face plane of the crankshaft, or that is not 'uncentered' to the crank axis  ..you can fabricate a 'mokup' of the crank but with a slightly larger diameter 

..something softer (best made out of a plastic tube, from the home depot store), so that it does not harm the crank or the sealing lip on the ring itself   ..and that now fits the crank rear dimension on its inside, and that is on the outside just big enough to lock the sealing in position

-this way is also good especially if the sealing ring sits in a separate rear cover (as it for example does on the 4pots, as far as I know..).

The effect is that the rearcover (with the ring allready fitted inside now) is self-centered to the crank axis .. so that if you screw the cover on the engine block, and pull the 'mokup' tube out from the sealing ring, this lip there on the ring is under equal contact pressure there all around  ..so less chance for uncontroled wear and leaks later on.   

 

Of course, it meand best is you undo the gearbox (or the whole engine & gearbox  ..as you have other points there on the engine itself  ..as I can read)   

 

-more space to work means a more concentrated way of working, means more quality of work ! 

 

..it also helps to hold the spring inside of the sealing ring lip in its position, if you use a hammer (rubber mallet) and something flat and strong to press the ring into the rear cover

[philip600]

Hi, you could be right with regards the work not been carried out !

Thanks for the other tips, much appreciated.

Boot floors out, exhaust & brackets off & grearbox / bellhousing all de-greased.

Next job is to order parts & look at whether to try fitting seal with gearbox in situ or remove it, I'm inclined to take it out as it should make it much easier to align both the new seal & the clutch.

I'll keep you updated.

Phil.

[lotus4s]

If you haven't done the job before, I would highly recommend removing the gearbox. It will make the job tons easier and much less likely that you don't have to do it again. Proper alignment of the seal and clutch is important...

[philip600]

Hi Jim,

I'm leaning towards that conclusion to be honest. Reading through previous posts I'd rather spend a bit more time now & do it right first time !

On that question, is it possible to drop the gearbox down & out of the back rather than lift it up & over ? I thought I'd read a post on this somewhere but can't find it now ? Just thought it would be easier & less risky.

Exhaust & carried is now off & out of the way.

Phil.

[dodge1979]

Up and over...its not a heavy box and its easy to do.if youve got an engine lift, even easier

[mr.oogieboogie]

Change the spring on the clutch fork whilst its out

[philip600]

Update.

Managed to get gearbox out ok, dropped it down & out the back from underneath, didn't see much point in risking  lifting over the rear of the car. Rear seal knackered, incorrectly set & one butchered allen bolt holding the housing on ! Why do people re-fit knackered bolts ? Luckily managed to get it out by tapping in a spline.

Now a bit of advice required.

Clutch was replaced about 5500 miles ago but friction plates not got a lot left on them ! is it possible to buy a new friction plate or is it false economy ?

SJS got plates listed for £116 but on all other components ( realease bearing, cover etc ) it says 'not for S4s' question is are the friction plates different because if they are they're not listed seperately ?

Full clutch kit for S4s is £ 340 so quite a bit of difference ?

Any advice would be welcome.

Phil.

[dodge1979]

Change it all and dont use mickey mouse parts..s4s is different to s4..

[mr.oogieboogie]

i got my clutch kit from pnm

[philip600]

Many thanks, points duly noted. I've emailed PMN for a price.

Is the clutch kit for the S4s just uprated or is is different ? i.e. will a kit for an S4 fit ?

Just wondering whether its feasable that it's had a clutch from an S4 fitted ?

Cheers, Phil.

[sanj]

The driven plate is the same, the flywheel, release bearing and clutch cover are different (and typically more expensive).

[Loose Cannon]

Just a note Phil, my clutch fork failed once, it is a known issue. Check for cracks etc. (I can send a pic of where mine went if you like). I paid about £100 for a new one, but then they saw them in the next factory sale (not sure if that's the current one).

 A lot of money for a "what if " failure, it's up to you........don't you love the way Esprit jobs just snowball?

[philip600]

The driven plate is the same, the flywheel, release bearing and clutch cover are different (and typically more expensive).

Sanj, thanks for the info, so it would not be possible to fit a clutch kit from an S4 to an S4s ? I just wanted to check it hasn't had the wrong clutch fitted in 2011, I'm suprised it's only been in 5500 miles & although it by no means knackered there is probably less than .5mm before the rivets start to wear through so I thought I'd change it while its out.

I just wondered whether it would be ok to re-use the cover due to due the low milage on it but meybe false economy ?

Mark, I will make sure I check the fork, I've ordered a new clip / spring as well.

Phil.

[sanj]

The drillings in the flywheel are different between the two models, so it would be cost-prohibitive to swap. Mechanically speaking, it could certainly be done, however. Can you see a part number marking on the clutch cover? The S4 will likely be marked "235 CP 7000", the S4s "235 CP 8300". If the fingers on the cover aren't worn, and the friction surface looks OK, then you could reuse it. I would be inclined to carefully check and/or replace the release bearing.

Edited March 6, 2013 by sanj

[molemot]

Things can always break. New things as well as old things; back in 1970 I fitted a set of new valves to my MG TC when rebuilding the engine with a supercharger. In 1971, a few thousand miles down the road, the head fell off one of them and hit the piston coming up the bore. Conversely, when I first had the engine and gearbox out of the Esprit Turbo in 1989? 1990? whenever it was....I fitted a new clutch complete. Have had the beast apart many times since then; still running nicely on the same clutch assembly. The release bearing is a ball race...since it's not a good idea to sit with the clutch depressed in these cars as it loads the nylatron spacer on the clutch shaft, the release bearing shouldn't wear. To see how much the clutch friction plate has worn, you need to measure the thickness of the plate and compare it with a new one. I thought that somewhere I'd seen a specification for the clutch plate thickness, but I can't find it!! You can readily fool yourself by looking at how much "meat" there seems to be between the outer surface and the rivets...it looks like it's worn out when it's new, iirc.

[philip600]

All comments taken on board & discussing it with PNM I have decided to just replace the friction plate although I will double check the parts numbers so thanks for that. I know what you mean about thickness of the plates but on one side the rivets are definately closer to the surface than the other so there is definitely some wear there, I'll compare the two when the new one arrives.

Well tonight we checked the surface where the seal goes, this had two marks around the circumferance where the rubber seal has been running almost as if the seal has been running dry ? This cleaned off & there is no grove or marks on the shaft so we refit the new seal & housing with new bolts. After warming the seal & setting it up to 2mm from the back face we used the lemonade bottle method with plenty of oil to fit it over the crank. This worked a treat so thanks for the tip.

We were going to re-fit the gearbox next but decided it might be better replacing the cambelt first to give us more room & to allow a bit of movement on the engine if required.

Will let you know how that goes.

Phil.

[Günter]

Philip, so I can now call the advice 'fit a plastic sleeve onto the crank end' to make it a more thight & centered fit call *Lemonade bottle* method     ..right there, good name

[philip600]

Philip, so I can now call the advice 'fit a plastic sleeve onto the crank end' to make it a more thight & centered fit call *Lemonade bottle* method     ..right there, good name

Hi, we should maybe point out other carbonated drinks bottles are available & indeed suitable ( before we get accused of

favouritism )

It certainly worked for me, so top tip.

This is what I love about this forum ( other forums are avai............ )

Cheers, Phil.

[Günter]

what is with the gearbox thing, if there is a problem with the drive-shaft leaking ..?

-simplest way without to invest into new rings/sealings is:
undo the small spring inside the sealing ring (use two old paperclips for this, bend them in new shape with a plier, a smal hook on the end is what we need there)  ..peel out the spring from inside the radial sealingring, to shorten the spring. The spring is normally not a endless circle, it is attached inbetween, see there for the contact point (if you have bad eyes use a suitable device or your fingernails to find the point)  ..if you now snap of 1mm from the big end (use a wire cutter) and refit the small end into the big end now the spring forms a ring again, but is now stronger/smaller in diameter (as it is shorter in circumference by 1mm).
Use the 'paperclip-tools' to fit the spring inside, lock one side in position and guide with the other paperclip the spring all around, until it sits fully inside its original position and does not snap out again. For this you need to be patient and or a model crafter  .. 

..if this is to complicated for you, you can at least help to seal up the whole conception on an other point, mostly the splines itself.  
For this simply seal the splines inside, before those come out of the gearbox, so before the pin-hole there. With good pre-cleaned and dry splines (gearbox end and driveshaft joint one) the silicone or any other oil resistand adhesive should seal up perfectly. You would even not need to add taps of silicone to the pin end after fit of the driveshafts in this case.

..other thing is, the factory dimension (Renault speced) O-rings on the axle shafts there inside the gearbox/diff ..those shafts with the splines on it  .. the rings are relatively small from the sqare-profile, so if you can find some with a suitable diameter but slightly bigger profile the force to re-fit the driveshafts on the axleshafts in the diff will be stronger , but the sealing contact on those rings will be improved.
..and gain -this also helps to hold the 'not so cheap' gearbox oil in the box

Edited March 8, 2013 by Günter

[philip600]

Update.

Gearbox seals out ready for new ones. Cambelt replaced ( the original was a Peugeot belt ?! ) Next job it to fit new auxilary belts & refill coolant.

We were considering temporarily fitting the starter & running the engine to check the rear oil seal before re-fitting the gearbox - Is it possible ? Not sure if it will run without vacuum pump connected ?

Got some de-greasing & cleaning to do tonight & hopefully gearbox back in Wednesday night ( it's flipping cold in the garage ! )

Will let you know how it goes.

Phil.

[Vulcan Grey]

The Vacuum pump is not needed to operate the engine, though you'll need to wire the EBPV open to run, or else it'll block the exhaust without vacuum to the capsule.

[philip600]

Hi Travis, I should be ok then as my EBPV valve is gone

Many Thanks, Phil