delco brakes get them working successfully and well

[dodge1979]

Derek, interesting point. Is there a different part number dependant upon which grade yellowstuff? I bought mine from ebc direct a year and a half ago approximately, whether this would help in identification but probably not! Ill look back througg the receipts when I get a chance to seeif it sheds any light...

[sailorbob]

I'm not sure if the part number differs but the grade is on the box and prefixed with 'DM'. It is also on the back of the pad (if that's still legible!).

EBC say that the 1846 is not suitable for track use and 1793 should be used instead.

Edited May 9, 2012 by sailorbob

[dodge1979]

Derek, happy to report 1793 on the pads...

[philip600]

Hi Darren,

Many thanks again for taking the time to not only get your brakes sorted but also to post your findings on here. It has given me hope that the original brakes can be made to work, I did read a few road tests forom the time when the S4s was launched & both journalists commented how good the brakes were.

After reading your last post about changing the pads I have today ordered new front & rear mintex pads for mine to replace the EBC greenstuff pads that are fitted at present.

Hopefully I'll have them in by the weekend & will report back.

Thanks again, Phil.

[CHANGES]

Hi Darren,

Thanks once again for going to all the trouble finding out the little quirks in the system , the solutions , and sharing your findings

with everyone.

I would also like to personally thank you for coming around to show me how you did it all on the S300 i am just finishing restoration on.

It was quite enlightening and certainly saved me a lot of time messing about.

Hopefully the slightly dodgy Delco brakes will now be a thing of the past...

well done

Dave

PS. i still prefer the old style system...

[dodge1979]

Ah...dave, a stickler for a system where your more in control. From your driving experience and.background thats understandable, however the system was put in this car for a reason. We know well, and as such its a part of.its heritage we have to keep.going....there are. Lot of s4 and s4s esprits out there which probably disappoint owners with their brake performance. If one or two can make improvements, great. Like I said earlier in the thread, if important cars like the.s300 couldnt keep their original systems Working, then that would be a.dire shame indeed....

[philip600]

Hi,

Well I have replaced my Greenstuff pads with Mintex ( For ref the part numbers are MDB2221 fronts & MDB1445 rears )

Went out for steady run yesterday & first impressions were good, they obviously needed bedding in but there was much more 'feel' to the pedal & more 'bite' unfortunately I didn't have time to go far but today I've had a good run out over the North York moors on a good mix of roads & now they've had chance to bed in the brakes are far better then they were with the EBC pads :-)

I now have much more confidence in them as although they worked before the pedal just felt dead. Now when I press the pedal I can feel the pads working.

Brake dust seems a little worse but not excessive. Time will tell on the wear rate but I'd rather replace the pads at £ 25.00 than the discs at £???

I'm not sure how long the greenstuff pads have been fitted as they were in when I bought her last year but I've done 3k miles & they look hardly worn at all. I have to agree with Darren & feel that the EBC pads just do not suit the braking system fitted to the Esprit. Maybe on the track the Mintex pads may struggle but I have no intention of doing track days so this isn't a problem for me.

Whether I find problems with them fading whilst driving on the roads remains to be seen but I have had Mintex pads in various performance cars in the past & have never had any problems before.

Maybe the Mintex pads are compensating for my braking system not operating as well as it did when new but I'm now happy with them & it has cost less than £ 50.00.

Coincidentally the handbrake now works better as well but this maybe because I've cleaned & lubed the caliper sliders & cables.

Many thanks again to Darren for his time posting his findings & for giving me the push to do something about my brakes, keep up the good work :-)

Phil

[PaulEspritGT3]

I’ve now fitted this fix for the failed Pressure switch problem to my GT3, using two standard industrial pressure switches to replace the original (unobtainable) Lotus combined switch.

I’ve been testing this for a few weeks and it works perfectly.

The attached photo shows the switches in place, none of this is visible when the cover is in place.

The switches I used were -

For the pump switching a “PSP300 E 1/4P STL” adjusted to 2700 psi failing and 2200 psi rising (the switch code means “300” adjustment range up to 300bar, “E” EPDM diaphragm, “1/4P” 1/4 inch BSPP thread and “STL” made of steel).

For the low pressure warning a “PMN150AE 1/4 STL” with protective boot adjusted to 1800 psi falling (the switch code means “150” the adjustment range is 50 to 150 bar - max pres 300bar, “A” Normally open contact – switch opens when pressure drops below the setting and the red light comes on when the earth is broken, “E” EPDM, "1/4" 1/4 inch BSPP and “STL” made of steel).

You will also need some hydraulic connectors, copper washers, high pressure brake hose and electrical connectors.

I used 1/4” BSPP fittings, with appropriate convertors from the original 14mm fittings, as these are readily available in the UK. The hose is standard PTFE brake hose (it is very important only to use metal fittings, PTFE or EPDM because brake fluid dissolves most other materials).

I got the pressure switches from PVL Ltd for a total cost of about £120, and a good source of the fittings is Pirtek. I recommend both these companies.

The third take off point in the photo is for a pressure gauge which I attached during testing – it is important to do this to ensure that the system is working to the original spec.

Thanks to Darren.

[rizla603104]

Really impressed with your test and assessment of the replacement parts..... hopefully I wont have this issue in the near future - but great to see a solution!

[dodge1979]

As a quick update to this, ive obviously been running this system now without any issues..except I think the current front pads are a little soft for my personal preference but I knew that anyhow..

More importantly I have recently had the pleasure of fitting these improvements upon Palmergeddon's S4 as well...and what fantastic results. We have there..again a different machine. Having spoken to Ian after he has had the chance to do some driving..he is gaining confidence to be able to drive the car further into its capabilities knowing that the brakes will be there to perform their function should the need arise... And that is a wonderful thing to hear....

[Bibs]

 

[mdw]

Theres a new delco moraine master cylinder on ebay at the moment for anyone wanting to keep standard. 151021943272 is the no.

[philip600]

Hi, just a bit of feedback on my brakes. As you will see by my earlier posts I replaced my pads last year with some success, the mintex were far better than the previous greenstuff & I was a lot happier with the 'feel' & they were a lot better than they had been.

I haven't used her much over Winter but when I took her out a little while ago my ABS light was on & the pump was running every time I pressed the pedal, while carrying out some other work I decided, with the help of Darren's brilliant write up ( many thanks again ) to replace the accumulator, I hadn't got Espritmon working at that point. I also cleaned the dreaded switch & replaced the hose from the reservoir. Today was MOT time so I managed to have a decent run out & can report my brakes are better by far, you can now feel the pads biting the discs & the pedal is rock solid where before it would 'pulse' so I'm a happy man.

I still got the ABS light on for a short time when I set off but it went off when I stopped for fuel & I've now got Espritmon working so I'm pretty sure it's the brake pedal switch that is the problem. I suspect it is sticking & sometimes not making contact, I've since sprayed it with WD40 & it seems fine now, I'll keep an eye on it though.  

I'm sure at some point I will need to replace the pressure switch but I'm happy there is an option to do this as I would prefer to keep the car standard & as Darren has shown these brakes can be made to work well.

Phil.

[hunters]

THE ACCUMULATOR

This is not available, and a suitable alternative is from an XJ6 Jaguar as we know, but these are becoming scarce too now and expensive. So, having looked at many types, which come in various sizes, capacities, pressures and screw threads, I settled on a Wabco unit which is very commonly available at a much lower price than the orginal was or the jag unit. Its and M14 thread, 200bar 0.3litre unit from a P38 Range Rover.

 

any ideas what the part no was from the p38 as there is a couple on fleebay for sale

 

cheers

[philip600]

I bought one off eBay, it was for a Range Rover P38 part number STC2784. Cost about £ 135.00. This fitted my S4s fine but check it will be ok for your High Wing.

Phil.

[dodge1979]

The delco system was the same on all the Esprits that used it...s4/s4S/sport300 just the calipers, discs and hubs were different....

[davevr6car]

A very good right up on the delco brake system, but I'm afraid I think your flogging a dead horse. The system is very old in design, and with better options out there, I decided to upgrade my brake system on my S4s to the standard and performance you should expect from a sub 5sec 0 - 60 car. I understand why people want to keep their cars original, but if there are upgrades that make the car run better and smoother and stop better then I think these upgrades should be performed.

 

I'm currently running a Nissan servo and master cylinder, which is feed by a lotus vacuum pump attached to an Audi A6 vacuum tank with vacuum gauge and bleed valve so I can adjust the amount of assist I have going to the pedal. Brake wise I'm running AP S350 calipers and disc's up front. At the rear I'm running S350 disc's with custom 4 pot calipers mounted on S300 brackets. Original brembo calipers are kept for the hand brake. All brake lines are braided from the master to the calipers. The master feeds an adjustable distribution block, so I can adjust the brake balance between the front and rear. These brakes will pop your eyes out of their sockets, and there's no stabing of the brakes. They are fully adjustable, to suit your driving conditions or mood with the quick twist of the bleed valve, and the install is very tidy and extremly easy to maintain and bleed. Outside of the price I outlayed for the s350 brakes, the rest of the conversion cost less than €300.

[dodge1979]

Well its not a dead horse at all. I agree there are better systems available and havent said otherwise. But the point is people write them off because its simply not understood how they work and how to fix them. So it is a good thing for these issues to be investigated and invested in by people who want to spend the time and effort. May not be for everyone, but that doesnt matter. You could replace pretty much everything on an Esprit with a modern far better version of it, but that doesnt mean the original component is of no use or not up to the job.

It may well be that I decide the calipers on my Esprit are not suitable for me anymore and ill look to change them to a more modern design, that cannot be ruled out...but That doesnt mean theyre not up to the job..thats just personal preference..as it stands unless your on a track, or you drive at 150 everywhere were all sitting in traffic in town, all doing the same speed on the motorway and all have to use our brakes in the same fashion...the Delco system when correct is more than required for most drivers in non extreme circumstances.

[philip600]

I've got to agree with Darren on this, sure my Esprit's brakes could be improved in many ways, as could most thing on a car that is 18 years old & lets face it some of the technology was old hat when my car was new, but that's one thing I like about it. For the same money I paid for my S4s I could have bought a whole range of 'modern' sports cars, faster, better handling, better brakes, better fuel consumption, the list goes on but in my opinion they don't have the character & looks of my Esprit. 

I for one am quite happy to spent time & money to keep my Esprit as it left the factory for as long as is possible & thanks go to people like Darren that have spent time to investigate the problems & put a write up on forums like this so others can, if they choose carry out the same improvements.

Regards, Phil.

[palmergeddon]

As above really, before Darren sorted out my brakes I had the same issues as previously stated, the car was almost undriveable at speeds due to unpredictability -since the update that Darren kindly carried out the brakes are now very good and I now have confidence back in the system. I also echo what philip600 says about trying to keep the car as standard as possible.

Ian

[philip600]

Hi again,

Looks like I'm going to have to replace the brake switch & adapt it as per Darren's post.

Initially after I'd changed the accumulator the brakes worked fine & no abs light & the pump ran every 4th or 5th press of the pedal ( happy days )

Now intermittently I get the abs light on or flashing, I checked & adjusted the brake pedal switch which was a bit slow at lighting & this is working fine now but the pump occasionally runs every time I press the pedal & as soon as it does this the ABS light comes on.

I've made a note of the switches I need & will contact PVL to sort some new ones.

Is the wiring easy enough to adapt ?

Thanks, Phil.

[OwenGT3]

I've been having issues with my Esprit GT3 abs, started last year. I did the obvious cheap thing first and cleaned the switch, first time went for about four month, but I think the harsh winter just made it play up again. So cleaned it again and this time it's stayed off, only going on once.

 

I did correspond with Steve in Oz regarding the brakes and his abs switch replacement, I finally purchased one last month. Steve has been great with his help regarding the issues with this system. also new switch arrival was within a week, really surprised how little time it took to arrive from half way around the world. I fitted the new switch last week as I felt the brakes weren't working as well as they had done, even though the switch was working and no light on.

 

After fitting the switch, all was ok, but the new switch only highlighted another fault in the system, which I have now hopefully found. With the help of the manual and Andy Clements, plus trying a snap-on diagnostic tool, which didn't work in the end, Andy and I decided a good bleed of the system was required.

 

Andy and I bled the system last Saturday, removed about a litre of fluid, did some further procedures similar to the Tech 1 bleed system and have finally got a good solid brake pedal with the light staying off and the switch operating as it should.

 

The only thing that seems to be a problem now is the accumulator. Before the bleed it ended up pressurising on every press of the pedal, after the bleed it's now gone to every second press of the pedal. So with the light out, the system seems ok apart from how often the pump charges, so I hope a new accumulator will sort that problem and return to the every 3 or 4 pumps before the pump runs.

 

I'm now in the process of trying to find a suitable accumulator for a reasonable price. I've read most threads regarding this item, so it will be either a Jag XJ6 or the Range Rover P38 version. I did also find companies locally that would do a recharge, but as the item is 15 or more years old I don't think this will be worth it as I don't know if the diaphragm is leaking because of age, so didn't want to risk it.

 

The pedal so far is the best it has been for some time. I reckon when I fitted the braid hoses some time back, although I did bleed them well, it wasn't bled as the manual said, so it might be down to that. Again, have to thank Andy for his help, he's a saint and has a good bleed foot! 

 

I don't know how the system is driving as the car is still on axle stands, I'm doing a load of other jobs while it's up on the stands, but will report back when I have fitted the accumulator and given it a good test run.

[OwenGT3]

I finally got my car down off the stands and used it for the first time Monday. Have to say it wasn't great, not so much the actual feel of the pedal, just the fact that the pump relay was tripping continuously most of the journey every time the brake pedal was applied.

 

It was the same on the journey home from work, so the car is off the road again for investigation. I have considered things it could be and have two possible causes. The accumulator which I think is the problem, or the management system of the abs. I've fitted one of Steve's switch conversions so have ruled that out. I've videoed the car and the abs unit so you can see what's happening to mine.

 

http://youtu.be/s1QT3wFpN0M

 

I'm going to get a new accumulator and take it from there. You can hear it starts alright, the light has gone out at this time correctly. I'm applying the pedal and it's operating the accumulator pump every second go, which is too often, also the light is on by now and flashing. You can see the master cylinder moving as I apply the brake.

Edited May 14, 2013 by OwenGT3

[Vanya]

Hi Owen,

 

Have a look at this alternative:

http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-25528382-Pressure-Accumulator/dp/B000C9LTRC

 

I have had it fitted to my car for the last few weeks - no issues. It fixed my flashing ABS light, but more importantly, as you pointed out, the pump is no longer triggered at each press of the brake pedal. More like every 5-7 times.

 

The brake system now behaves in keeping with the descriptions featured in the brake manual for the car.

 

I also gave a friend of mine the same accumulator (as I had obtained two earlier this year) and he fitted it to a customers SE, also with the flashing ABS light - I haven't heard any complaints from his end either.

 

There are a few other alternatives, but it sounds like this is the last thing you'll have to replace before you're home free! Good luck!

[Gasman GT3]

Vanya,

 

I am also in the market for an accumulator for my GT3, is this a straight bolt on replacement or do you need a copper washer to adapt it like the Range Rover unit?  Also what was the shipping costs like?

 

Ade