delco brakes get them working successfully and well

[Bibs]

You're covered under the Sale & Supply of Goods, warranty or not. If the brakes are dangerous, warning light or not, they should be fixed by the seller, no question.

[markw996]

With respect, I'd rather diagnose and potentially repair any faults myself than spend my time and money doing 350 mile round trips 2 or 3 times which will involve catching trains or scrounging lifts, and possibly overnight stays until it gets resolved.

 

I don't like slandering dealers, but if they couldn't even fix the fuel gauge then I doubt they would have much luck fixing a braking system with its obsolete parts. Also I have to factor that if it got bad enough that we reversed the transaction, then I feel I would be the biggest loser by giving back such a beautiful car.

 

I do all my own repairs on all 3 of my cars anyway, I just don't have any experience with modifying an ABS braking system to get it back to how it was when it was new. It can't be that difficult so I'm just asking for a bit of advice.

 

EDIT: I should just add that my comment of the brakes being 'frightening' may have been a bit dramatic, the more I drive it the more I find myself able to adjust my driving style to take account of the stopping distances. I've owned many cars over the years, all sorts of makes and ages, and I have to say these are the worst brakes I have experienced.

Edited August 8, 2013 by markw996

[Bibs]

Fair enough. Your car, your money & time

[philip600]

With respect, I'd rather diagnose and potentially repair any faults myself than spend my time and money doing 350 mile round trips 2 or 3 times which will involve catching trains or scrounging lifts, and possibly overnight stays until it gets resolved.

 

I don't like slandering dealers, but if they couldn't even fix the fuel gauge then I doubt they would have much luck fixing a braking system with its obsolete parts. Also I have to factor that if it got bad enough that we reversed the transaction, then I feel I would be the biggest loser by giving back such a beautiful car.

 

I do all my own repairs on all 3 of my cars anyway, I just don't have any experience with modifying an ABS braking system to get it back to how it was when it was new. It can't be that difficult so I'm just asking for a bit of advice.

 

EDIT: I should just add that my comment of the brakes being 'frightening' may have been a bit dramatic, the more I drive it the more I find myself able to adjust my driving style to take account of the stopping distances. I've owned many cars over the years, all sorts of makes and ages, and I have to say these are the worst brakes I have experienced.

 

 

 

Hi Mark, you will see from my posts I had similar problems with my S4s when I bought her two years ago, I tried various things like replacing the pads with a different type & while this certainly improved them they were never brilliant, felt wooden & the pedal would often feel like it was pushing back under my foot. In short they didn't give me much convidence. My pump used to take 50 or so seconds to stop from fully depressurised & run every 4th press on the pedal then earlier this year they got worse & I decided to replace the accumulator, this sorted them for a while until I started getting the ABS light either on or flashing & the pump started running either every press or two presses so I replaced the old (obsolete) pressure switch with the setup Dodge1979 advised in this thread. I now have brakes that work far better than they ever have since I bought the car & I'm more than happy with them now. Sure I didn't use a pressure guage to diagnose but I ordered the switches with the pressures recommended in this post & they're fine so I don't see any reason to invest time & money in pressure gauges when someone has already done the leg work. My advice would be order an accumulator ( approx £ 110 ) & the switches ( approx £ 120 ) & some hydraulic fittings / Tee's etc for about £ 35 & swap them over, it wasn't difficult. Hope you get them sorted. 

Phil.

[andydclements]

Is the accumulator a new one/ Is it a genuine one?

I ask as OwenGT3 has just had issues with a brand new, non-Lotus one and reverted to the old Lotus one with it being better.

 

If  the pump activates every pump there can be a few causes but the symptom means the system thinks the pressure has dropped enough to warrant the pump being put in to play.

It can be a worn out accumulator, it can be the high pressure switch failing by indicating the lower pressure setting of it (it's a switch with hysteresis built in) has been reached. It can be the high pressure switch failing by the higher setting that acts to curt the motor out, being overly sensitive and so not letting the pump build sufficient pressure.

 

As you say you can hold the thing for 3 mins and the pump doesn't come in, I think you can rule out a leak.

 

 

A new genuine switch is not possible but the non-genuine option (either purchased as a kit or as components you source) is an option. A new accumulator may give you the same problem Owen did, and he visited a specialist who'd had issues with new accumulators as well. 

 

I think a pressure testing kit, plumbed into the low pressure switch will be your best bet, you can tell what pressure the pump comes in at and cuts out at, also how many pumps it takes to drop from those two points., that info should pinpoint the problem without a Tech-1 kit.

[Richard123]

To Mark....

 

My S4 did the same when I bought it, with the pump running every time I pressed the brake pedal and the car braking very poorly.

 

Main solution was to bleed the entire system.  There is a ridiculously complex procedure involving many bleed points and at least a liter or two of brake fluid.  This fixed the brake feel, but pump still ran every 2nd press so I swapped in a new accumulator (I bought one meant for a 90's Jaguar) and that has the pump running every 4th press or so which seems typical for these systems.  I did bleed out the system again after fitting the new accumulator, so not sure if the 2nd bleed or the accumulator helped out there.  

 

The brakes are fine now.  Not great, but perfectly acceptable.  You wouldn't comment on them (good or bad) if it was the first Lotus you ever drove.

 

The pressure switch thing should be a last resort in my opinion as a couple hundred psi isn't going to help if you are braking on air!

[markw996]

To Mark....

 

My S4 did the same when I bought it, with the pump running every time I pressed the brake pedal and the car braking very poorly.

 

Main solution was to bleed the entire system.  There is a ridiculously complex procedure involving many bleed points and at least a liter or two of brake fluid.  This fixed the brake feel, but pump still ran every 2nd press so I swapped in a new accumulator (I bought one meant for a 90's Jaguar) and that has the pump running every 4th press or so which seems typical for these systems.  I did bleed out the system again after fitting the new accumulator, so not sure if the 2nd bleed or the accumulator helped out there.  

 

The brakes are fine now.  Not great, but perfectly acceptable.  You wouldn't comment on them (good or bad) if it was the first Lotus you ever drove.

 

The pressure switch thing should be a last resort in my opinion as a couple hundred psi isn't going to help if you are braking on air!

 

Did your pedal feel spongy with air in the system, because my pedal feels quite hard?

 

The problem with mine is that it just doesn't stop when you press it, it's like you are having to do an emergency stop when in any other car you would just be pressing the pedal.

 

Regarding the accumulator, I think it is the original Lotus unit looking at how old it looks.

 

I personally suspect the pressure switch (high pressure) as it seems to lack servo assistance and the pump comes on after virtually every press of the pedal, which makes me think it's not building up anywhere near enough pressure.

 

I popped into Pirtek on my way home from work, they are asking around £70 for a 40cm PTFE hose, a 1/4" BSP Tee piece, and two M14 adapters (one male, and one female) which I think is the minimum I will need to build a pressure test kit (So about £80 including a 4000 PSI gauge off eBay). This seems a little bit steep to me, although I think I can use virtually all of it in the DIY Switch Assembly I would have to build if it proves my pressure switch is faulty.

 

I also tried to get a price of the complete assembly including fitting from Paul Matty Sportscars, but I have to phone on Monday to speak with the workshop manager. I suspect I won't get much change out of £400 if I go down that route but I don't know.

 

Thanks,

Mark.

[lotus4s]

Personally, I think your problem is the accumulator. It's purpose is to aid in the power assist and when failing can cause the brakes to feel "wooden". I've replaced several using the recommended (non Lotus)  replacements and never had an issue with any of them.

 

I agree with Richard that replacing the pressure switch would be a last resort before going to a modified system and would definitely try the cleaning procedure for the switch first.  

 

You could have other problems such as plugged fluid lines but most of your symptoms point to the accumulator. I am a little puzzled why you don't have any brake or abs lights on yet. Do the lights come on when you turn on the ignition?

 

A proper flush and bleeding will do wonders with a new accumulator...

[markw996]

You could have other problems such as plugged fluid lines but most of your symptoms point to the accumulator. I am a little puzzled why you don't have any brake or abs lights on yet. Do the lights come on when you turn on the ignition?

 

All lights appear to work OK, they come on with ignition and go out after a few seconds or as soon as the engine is started.

 

I understand what you are both saying about the accumulator, I just don't really know how to prove it's the culprit without swapping it for a new one.

 

I think buying and fitting the test kit for £80 may be the best way forward, at least then I will be able to see what is going on from a pressure point of view. If pressure looks good I'll replace the accumulator and bleed the brakes, if it looks low then I'll know it's probably the switch.

 

Mark.

[dodge1979]

Mark. Ill send you a PM and we can chat over this..regards Darren

[philip600]

Hi, can anyone advise me where I can get a short length of 10mm I/D hose suitable to replace the one from the brake reservoir to the pump ? I understand it needs to be EPDM or silicone ? My local motor factors sold me some pipe he asured me was suitable to use with brake fluid, what he meant was he didn't know but sold me it anyway, it is now sweating worse than the original piece I took out

I've emailed a few hose suppliers but none seem to be able to help.

Can someone point me in the right direction.

Thanks, Phil.

[MartinL]

Phil, I think I may have the hose you need, will dig out the box of s4 brake parts and check.

[sailorbob]

Any use? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-8-ID-REMOTE-BRAKE-FLUID-RESERVOIR-HOSE-/330576924784 You need to look for SAE J1401 hose.

[philip600]

Hi Martin, thanks, is it the original hose from your car as the reason I replaced it was the original one on mine was 'sweating' due to age, this seems a common problem.  Unfortunately I've been sold something that is even worse hence why I need to replace it again.

 

Derek, thanks for the link & specification of the hose I need.

 

Phil.

[sailorbob]

I'm not sure the hose in the link I posted is the correct bore but based upon you saying 10 mm then I think it probably is.

[davevr6car]

Hi,

 

I have just put my Delco brake system up on ebay for sale. This includes the master cylinder and booster pump and resevoir with pressure switch. All was in good working order when I removed it.

 

If interested click here  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lotus-Esprit-Brake-master-cylinder-and-booster-pack-with-pressure-switch-/261269511900?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3ALotus%7CModel%3AEsprit&hash=item3cd4e05edc#ht_132wt_1241

[TimSportsTourer]

I've spent some time reading this thread, and I've learned a lot. I wonder if you guys can offer advice on a couple of specific question, then.

 

I've read pretty much the whole of this thread, but it's long, and I may have missed the answers above, and if so, I apologise. I think there is something new here, though.

 

Background:

My car is a very early S4. My ABS light is permanently on. I, my dealer, my Indy expert and the factory all think the pressure sensor switch is the problem. After two trips to the dealer, and two more to Hethel, the sensor switch is now cleaned up and replaced in the system and the TechScan applied to clear the faults, but the light is back on. It seems likely that my best bet is to replace the switch. Having read this thread, there are some other things I might do too, like replacing some sweating hose, etc, but I still believe I need a new pressure sensor switch.

 

Options:

1) The much talked of Australian switch system. My Indy expert says that he's only know one of these, and it did eventually work, but it took several goes, blew up some other stuff along the way, and was a proper pain.

2) Paul Matty make a system with two switches, a t-piece and a piece of hose, together, I gather, with some wiring and a bracket. They've sold 4 or 5 at £400 + VAT. They say they've had no problems, but I can't check that.

3) Some of the other sources of switches people have listed in this thread.

 

Questions:

1) Has anyone here had the Paul Matty kit? How is it performing?

2) Which of options 1-3 should I choose?

 

Relevant gossip from the factory:

One of the issues that has troubled me has been finding the right socket to get the sensor out! The reason it was hard to find was that there was a guy who was working on a replacement sensor. (We've all heard of that). He's now back on the production line, and had taken the socket with him, though it is now found again. From the team in the factory, there's no Lotus alternative to these third-party solutions, and I didn't hear a single word of the remotest chance that they would get round to finding one. I appreciate that this is reasonably well known, but in case anyone is harbouring covert hopes that there is something still happening, I'm convinced there isn't. And in the present environment, there certainly won't be.

 

Thanks for helping!

[andydclements]

Having spent too long working on Owen's car to not find the whole situation annoying, I'd suggest doing some manual checks rather than just Tech1.

 

 

The system has two switches, but one is used purely for the light, the other switch works as both off and on for the pump. The diagnosis I'd recommend is to obtain a suitable pressure testing set-up that you can measure the pressures in the system at which the switches operate, failing that here's a manual approximation.

With the car switched on and ABS system up to pressure , but with the motor disabled by pulling the relevant fuse, have a multimeter on the switches (so Ideally two multimeters) and repeatedly depress the brake pedal. look to establish at what point (relative to the other switch) the switch operates.

The pump cut-in should happen at a higher pressure (so in this test, before) the warning light switch cuts in, and assuming the system holds pressure well, it should be several pumps between those two events.

Next stage,finish the de-pressurisation of the system then, with the pump fuse back in, check how long it takes the warning light switch to change (not the dash light itself, but the switch) and the time it takes the pump to cut off. Time how log it takes for each event,

 

With a pump/ system that can get to full pressure, you will have to do some quick maths calcs.

For example,(I'm working form memory on the pressures and quick mental arithmetic) if it's 2700psi when the pump is due to cut-out ,1800 psi when it's due to cut in, and 1400 psi when the warning switch is due to activate,at 40 pumps to fully de-pressurise: IN the first part of the test you'd expect the pump control switch to operate at 13 pedal operations (40*(2700-1800)/2700)) and warning light to come on at 22(40*(2700-1400)/2700).

In the second part of the test, if it takes 30 seconds of the pump running to get pump-off state, you'd expect the warning light switch to operate at 14 seconds (30*(2700-1400)/2700).

 

 

The above, does away with one of the problems of the Tech1 test, which relies on the switches operating at the right pressures. With the right pressure tester, you can know wheat the pressure is and then establish whether the high pressure or low pressure switch is at fault (high pressure switch is the one that operates the motor, low pressure is the one that operates the light).

[TimSportsTourer]

The above, does away with one of the problems of the Tech1 test, which relies on the switches operating at the right pressures. With the right pressure tester, you can know wheat the pressure is and then establish whether the high pressure or low pressure switch is at fault (high pressure switch is the one that operates the motor, low pressure is the one that operates the light).

 

Andy,

Thanks for this advice. I'll give it a go (though it seems likely to be next week before I get a chance - please don't be insulted that I haven't done it yet!). However, I have to ask this - regardless of which switch is broken, I still have to get a new sensor assembly of some sort anyway, don't I? So if I'm replacing both switches together necessarily, what do I gain?

 

Cheers.

[andydclements]

The kits that are out there use two switches to replace just one (high pressure/ pump) switch, so the gain is knowing whether you need the kit to replace the pump control switch or the warning light switch, or the third potion which is that the switches are fine and something else is at fault..

The item shown on this site, is to replce just one switch http://www.lotusmarques.com/parts/datasheets/823-esprit-abs-replacement-switch , so before you spend £300 or whatever it is, you probably want to be sure it's that part and not the switch that controls the light.

[TimSportsTourer]

Andy,

 

I've gone back to basics and I've started re-reading the workshop manual about the ABS, with the rest of this thread to follow. I must have missed something important. I don't have the brake warning light - just the anti-lock warning light. As I understand it, the only component that could be to blame is the part labelled 32 on page Page 1 33.03A in the parts manual, so it's part number A082J6137S. Regardless which part of the switch is to blame, I still need to replace both halves. So I'm stuck for the Australian one you point out, or the Paul Matty version of the same. Two switches in a mounting, replacing one switch assembly. It's true other things like the accumulator could be shot, but the pump runs sensibly for normal amounts of time, and only every 3-5 brake presses. The pressure holds from week to week if I don't drive the car, and the brake warning light isn't on. So I can (and will) do the things you suggest (next week, when there's time, I hope!), but I can't just replace a single switch, can I?

 

Cheers again!

[sailorbob]

What is the error code? No point in guessing that it's the switch again.

[TimSportsTourer]

What is the error code? No point in guessing that it's the switch again.

A good question, and embarrassingly, I don't have a clear answer. Because the dealers (or the factory) have done all these things, I don't have a clear record of the errors. I've checked all my e-mails and I don't have a record there. It may be that the dealer or the factory noted it, so I'll have a phone around later to check. I know there have been up to six different errors, but some of them may have been from when the battery was flat before I got it. Recently, I think (from memory from Friday) 42 and 56. However, I've looked in the manual to check these, and they don't make sense, so it's probably my memory that's at fault. Does that help, Sailorbob? Really, I've been taking the word of the dealer, the factory and GST that the switch is the culprit.

 

[sailorbob]

It's the error code that is causing the ABS tell tale to come on now that is important. It may be a new fault unrelated to what's occurred before.

[fflyingdog]

Been reading this entire topic again,the guys having trouble with a flashing ABS light,have you recently changed your brake light lamps with LED versions?,because some of these units can and will cause an ABS light fail.Also worth considering your brake light switch is good,both of these I know from personal experience will trigger a flashing ABS light.