Undervalued

[The Pits]

I think Ferrari's real passion was for engines. Chapman's more for chassis design. Both are reflected in the cars they made. I think there's some truth in the old saying that you buy a Ferrari for its engine and the body comes for free. Their 12 cylinder engines are virtually without exception stunning, inspiring engines. The exception being the  unit in the 550 Maranello. Massive torque but lacking the music and drama of the great V12s.

I totally accept that Chapman aspired to one day become a rival to Ferrari. The Esprit is the embodiment of that ambition. I think the closest Lotus got was with the Turbo Esprit but even then it was the flagship Lotus against the entry level Ferrari, in Enzo's eyes merely a 'Dino'. 

[Andyww]

7 hours ago, The Pits said:

I think Ferrari's real passion was for engines. Chapman's more for chassis design. Both are reflected in the cars they made. I think there's some truth in the old saying that you buy a Ferrari for its engine and the body comes for free. Their 12 cylinder engines are virtually without exception stunning, inspiring engines.

Absolutely. The V8 engine/transaxle is also a really neat unit.

I have always suspected this is the reason that in Ferrari parts books, the engines are at the beginning and Lotus parts books have the chassis/suspension before the engine

[Loose Cannon]

18 hours ago, jack.pe said:

The essex is another thing entirely though.. I'm not sure what the value for one of those would be but given the exclusivity and amount of interest it must be approaching six figures..

 

That wasn't the point, I'm not talking about current "classic" bullshit.... when NEW the Essex cost the same as a 308, the Esprit was an equal in image and price and superior in dynamics. Somewhere along the line things slipped up. Whether Lotus were still riding high on the James Bond connotations (that curerently over value Astons) may have been a factor.

[The Pits]

Nothing slipped up. A Ferrari has long been a status symbol and badge to aspire to. Mondial owners get to say they own 'a Ferrari'. The Mondial bit comes second. With Lotus people tend to say they own 'an Esprit', not 'a Lotus'. As already explained in several posts above, it's the Ferrari brand that commands the premium. In raw objective terms the values of the cars ought to be closer, the brand cachet is the principal reason they are not. If Chapman had lived longer and found a way to dominate in F1 again, who knows but Lotus could have gone upmarket and stayed there. An Esprit with active suspension could well have been a true game changer, the likes of which would have taken years for Ferrari to catch up with. The Elise was the inspired move back to the company's core principles but in some ways is was also the end of that dream to become an exotic supercar builder. It was Lotus 'knowing its place'.

The Turbo Esprit was Chapman's most audacious attempt to not only match the 308 but go one better, even with the price. He figured, not unreasonably, that if he can beat Ferrari in F1, then why not on the road too? The roof stereo was pure one-upmanship. The price of the Turbo Esprit in March 1981 (I have the road test in front of me) was £20,900. Ferrari 308 GTB was £20,127. 911SC Sport £18,179. Remarkably the Jaguar XJS was also a highly cheeky £19,763! Some may take the view that Chapman's ambitions in his later years were unrealistic but wasn't he doing exactly what McLaren have done so successfully in the last few years? Just like Lamborghini before them. Make yourself a rival before you really are one and fairly soon everyone will put you on the same page.

[megalomaniac]

It's all my fault I'm afraid. Every time I get interested in something like this it's value shoots through the roof just before I get one. Rest assured values will plummet again once I've paid a small fortune for one.

[jack.pe]

16 hours ago, Andyww said:

Thats the thing.

The door handles and lights are fine. Nothing wrong with them at all, the association with the other makes is the issue rather than their design. At the time, Lotus would simply have gone to a car parts manufacturer such as Wilmot Breeden and asked them for a suitable part. The other usages of this item would not have bothered the Lotus engineers. They would have been looking at form and function and not thinking about the slating from idiot reviewers.

Not toally with you on this one Andy..the door handles are horrible to use, the locking mechanism in particular feels as if it's made from plasticince. The rear lights work fine but to me they dont look right.

[stephenwhyte]

43 minutes ago, jack.pe said:

Not toally with you on this one Andy..the door handles are horrible to use, the locking mechanism in particular feels as if it's made from plasticince. The rear lights work fine but to me they dont look right.

I love the outer door handles......they're just so of their time, having said that mine are part textured chrome effect so they do look a bit special! The inside ones are a bit iffy but they remind me of my Dads old Maxi's.

As for the light clusters.....being a long time lover and owner of SD1 Vitesse's from 2004-2015 I've always liked them.......but also always remember the Turbo Esprit for having them too so imagining anything else is wrong in my simple head 

[The Pits]

Another SD1 fan here! Particularly the Vitesse. It was the company car of our dreams growing up!

[Escape]

18 hours ago, Andyww said:

But that leads onto another point of difference. Interiors. Esprit interiors which have been looked after or restored are quite dramatic compared to the Ferrari interiors which are pretty dull. The 328 interior is nice enough although quite spartan and the 348 and 355 do pretty much look like Fiats inside.

Contrast that with the Esprit with its wrap-around binnacle and unique flat sloping fascia (at least on early non-US cars) and of course the delightfully different original S1 and there is no contest. One of the factors which tempted me to buy my first Esprit was the interior as well as the external shape.  

Having said that,  there are a lot of neglected Esprit interiors around which does impact the marque in general. They do seem to suffer more than other cars if not looked after.

I feel exactly the same! After looking at a bunch of Ferrari's when a local specialist/seller hosted a meeting, I found them all, from a 308 to a F512, quite bland inside and was very happy to slide back into my Esprit. Even with all those expensive exotics around, it felt very special and gave me a real sense of occasion even before driving off. 

When I testdrove a late Excel, I was disappointed to find smooth, 'modern' Toyota stalks and switches, instead of the familiar BL items I know and love from my Esprit SE. This is also the reason I don't consider the later style dash an improvement.

And as for the interiors getting worn, that's probably largely due to the cars being driven often, unlike their Italian counterparts. The miles will show, and unlike say tyres, the wear of the interior takes a lot of effort to be undone.

Filip

[ChrisJ]

The interior handles were also used in the Elan.

[Bazza 907]

Before we get too carried away with borrowed parts didn't the Jag XJ220 have Esprit wing mirrors..

[molemot]

3 hours ago, megalomaniac said:

It's all my fault I'm afraid. Every time I get interested in something like this it's value shoots through the roof just before I get one. Rest assured values will plummet again once I've paid a small fortune for one.

A friend of mine once bought a 246 Dino. It was a rustbucket,...he spent vast amounts on restoring it and when it was finished it had cost him far more than he could afford; he needed the money; so sold it for less than it had cost.

 

Two weeks later, Enzo died.

[Vanya]

49 minutes ago, Bazza 907 said:

Before we get too carried away with borrowed parts didn't the Jag XJ220 have Esprit wing mirrors..

As did the almighty McLaren F1 no? 

[stephenwhyte]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

Another SD1 fan here! Particularly the Vitesse. It was the company car of our dreams growing up!

My old one (that I owned twice over a 10 year period and sold for the second time last year) is for sale on the carandclassic website for an amount that might surprise you.

In fact it's now £3500 less than what it was priced at last month and was near the asking price what they were new....... I paid less than the difference to buy it first time around in 2006

http://m.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C792509

[LJR]

I hope they don't go up too quickly before I get a chance to get my hands on one!

[Andyww]

56 minutes ago, Bazza 907 said:

Before we get too carried away with borrowed parts didn't the Jag XJ220 have Esprit wing mirrors..

Lots of low-volume cars including the later Esprits and Excels used these Citroen CX wing mirrors for some reason. 

[Bibs]

Peter Stevens explained that he loved to use them as they were good looking, aerodynamic, compliant with view angles etc... 

[Bazza 907]

8 minutes ago, Andyww said:

Lots of low-volume cars including the later Esprits and Excels used these Citroen CX wing mirrors for some reason. 

Yes, it is a great response to those that suggest that the Esprit is a lesser car simply because it used Marina door handles.    

[The Pits]

I prefer to think of it as the Marina had Esprit door handles and they were probably the best thing about the Marina!

I am really liking that SD-1 Vitesse (apart from the steering wheel) especially the rear lights - the same as the Lotus Turbo Esprit used!

What's the mileage Stephen? Looks immaculate. Before anyone cries I think it's looking undervalued too at £15,000 

 

[stephenwhyte]

1 hour ago, The Pits said:

I prefer to think of it as the Marina had Esprit door handles and they were probably the best thing about the Marina!

I am really liking that SD-1 Vitesse (apart from the steering wheel) especially the rear lights - the same as the Lotus Turbo Esprit used!

What's the mileage Stephen? Looks immaculate. Before anyone cries I think it's looking undervalued too at £15,000 

 

For a 30 year old SD1 it's in exceptionally good condition (no fibreglass here remember) but would benefit from a couple of bits tidied up (rust blemish on front drivers arch and bit next to near side B pillar) and a full machine polish by a professional detailer. The mileage is 84,000 and the original steering wheel (just could'nt get used to driving with it) in the boot of the car.

Here's a video of the car shot back at my old house in 2008 I think from memory. Looks exactly the same now as it did then

 

[The Pits]

Stunning! That is the mother of all radiator fans!

[Ekku]

I do not think the Esprits are undervalued.

I think that Ferraris and Porsches are overvalued.

I am not sure if You British understand the fact that outside UK Esprit is very rare car indeed.

If I look up the local internet car sale site, I find two dozen Ferraris for sale, many times more Porsches, but rarely over 10 Lotuses of which 2 or max 3 are Esprits.

[stephenwhyte]

2 hours ago, The Pits said:

Stunning! That is the mother of all radiator fans!

Technically known as a Viscous fan - always running and never stops.......if it stops you're in deep s**t 

Great cars and now at last selling at prices of value - this should stop any more getting scrapped and more should now end up being restored.

10 years was enough though and the Turbo Esprit was my first love so had to go something about it.

[Escape]

This one looks like a bargain! Or it least undervalued in it's estimate. I thought I saw the same car advertised for €12k buy it now. I do love the blue interior! Could be an idea if I ever decide to redo mine.

http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2016-11-26/cars/ref-56-1990-lotus-esprit-turbo-se.aspx?p=

[megalomaniac]

19 hours ago, molemot said:

A friend of mine once bought a 246 Dino. It was a rustbucket,...he spent vast amounts on restoring it and when it was finished it had cost him far more than he could afford; he needed the money; so sold it for less than it had cost.

 

Two weeks later, Enzo died.

I feel his pain. Just yesterday I purchased something in USD... Would have been a lot cheaper today.