Future of Lotus

[Sport220]

A new base model Elise, or whatever they're gonna call it, with the Volvo 1.5 T2 engine, Volvo sourced infotainment system, easier access and a bit less raw interior could definitely sell well, surely it would improve sales considering the current entry level Elise isn't exactly a sales success and is about to be discontinued (or at least so I've read). Hope it will still be mid engined and that they can still keep at under 1000kg, as JMG said.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Sport220

[C8RKH]

So we want them to keep it under 1000kg whilst loading it with several cup holders, a fridge, a rear bumper mounted bbq, intelligent cruise and a 42" oled display for the infotainment.

I mean. May as well go the whole hog to ensure it sells well in 'murica where everything is bigger than it needs to be...

How about the same lightweight underpinnings. But one stream stripped out and pure, and the other with an options list as long as your arm to attract German car fans. Best of both worlds and something for everyone. That way you have the ultimate drivers Elise and the soft Elise.

[The Pits]

Toyota GT86 flat four longitudinally mounted would do me. Ally tub, carbon tub, makes no difference unless the kerbweight is much lower (which is unlikely).

Elise is a chicken and egg problem. Making it in such small numbers means it needs a high sticker price to break even. Producing it in larger numbers will help introduce economies of scale. Hopefully access to Volvo parts will help get the ball rolling. Nothing at all wrong with the way it drives but the base Elise needs to be cheaper. At the moment too many, quite reasonably, jump to the Exige once they price up an Elise.

 

[KAS-118]

Personally I think if you’re going to pitch it directly at the MX5 then you’re going to have to price it at roughly that amount (maybe a bit of a premium) and then you could get away with the 1.5 engine.

But if you’re going to keep it st £40-45k then I think you’d need to increase the engine- perhaps the 2.0 T5 (if you don’t have access to a 1.8)

I don’t see the issue of increasing the comfort levels a bit for the standard - because you can always then produce ‘Cup’ stripped out versions 

Edited January 30, 2018 by KAS-118

[Arregueti]

25 minutes ago, The Pits said:

flat four longitudinally mounted would do me.

Nothing at all wrong with the way it drives but the base Elise needs to be cheaper. At the moment too many, quite reasonably, jump to the Exige once they price up an Elise.

 

@The Pits

See to believe. A Lotus enthusiast, one of the die-hards nonetheless, asking to have a flat four engine in a Porsche Lotus.

Seriously: I agree. If the Elise was a little cheaper it would be much more competitive in the accessible sports car market. And I also agree that it is much harder to achieve than to say. Some choices will have to be made. JMG seemed to suggest that the Elise may as well be left as it is, with no further investment, as a wink to the company's roots before they go upmarket.

That is where you seem to be trying to take us, too, Mr Pits.

Would that allow to make it cheaper, though?

I just cross my fingers that they will keep it. IMO it is now part of Lotus DNA, just as much as the fibre glass in the first Elite.

[The Pits]

Handling comes first in an Elise. In theory a normally aspirated Toyota flat four could lower the cofg and improve that. Compared to the existing Toyota inline four the soundtrack could be improved, unlike the move from na flat 6 to turbo flat four in the Boxster.

I'm actually in favour of promoting and developing the current range because I still see the potential both in the cars and in terms of sales. I fear that for an all-new Lotus to be a success it will have to be less appealing to those of us crazy enough to buy them now. I'd definitely rather Lotus developed a car closer to the MX5 (which was heavily inspired by the Elan after all) but with sports car sales in steady long term decline it would be a very bold (some would say foolish) move to go that way instead of the inevitable SUV. I would personally be in favour of a model above the Evora and one below the Elise, so I'd look at both ends, scrap the SUV and keep Lotus as a dedicated sports car maker. But what do I know? I would have fired the guy at Porsche who suggested the Cayenne!

[scotty435]

3 hours ago, silverfrost said:

If lotus had produced the concept cars of the Danny Bahar era,   It would of either made or broke lotus,  personally think those concepts captured the lotus ethos

really well,   I think lotus needs another model,   and hit me with a stick if you do not agree as i have necver owned the newer model lotus, but to me the elise is a weekend car, the evora may be a bit to fancy for some folks even if it is 2 plus 2.     I think lotus needs a happy medium, a new look,  The elan, elite and elise concepts had a fresh and powerfull look imo.    One of these designs at least should of made it into production 

2010 elise 

2010 elan 

2010 elite ... lovely design 

And the failed esprit, which to be honest  just looks like a lambo, which is not a good thing.......  pleased this got canned 

The elite, elan and new elise design would of been warmly welcomed imo,  great looking cars that sadly never made production, such a shame. 

 

[scotty435]

No one would argue that Lotus are lucky still to be still here after Bahar time with the company, but the Concept cars looked great and with the workforce that was employed at the time would have been great road cars. I sometimes wish the company would have kept him at the helm of the ship until we had one or two of the concepts into production, especially the Elise. Yes a dark time for Lotus, but don't put down everything he did, his concepts could go into production today and still be as fresh as anything coming to the market as we speak all these years after they where first shown.

[NedaSay]

My ideal next gen elise would be:

- VVA based (tweaked evora "evolved" platform) because VVA is a global platform, allows for smart airbags... 

- VVA tub means the car will be a tad wider so more shoulder room, easier ingress and egress and better NVH but can remain below 3.90m in length

- 1.5L 3 cyl turbo 180 bhp (entry model),  2.0L 4 cyl turbo 250 bhp (mid range), 2.0L cyl turbo/supercharged 320 bhp (top end) I don't see the point of Keeping paying Toyota for the 4cylinders when the group's are just as good if not better.

- a Volvo sourced /and or derived loom for all the electronics (improved perceived quality, design, ergonomics, durability...)

- it doesn't need a 42" OLED panel but  a 7" to 8" IPS display with decent 2.1 stereo sound and nav (because it needs to sell but it doesn't need 5.1 or 7.1 surround)

- available in cloth, alcantara and leather (or vegan leather if must be) trims

- a slightly bigger boot, it just need enough space for two 40L duffel bags or two standard size carry on luggage

- a glovebox ( no need it for it to be heated or cooled I just need a glove box to stash things out of sight.

- two cup holders which can hold my Contigo mug or 50cl water bottles  because it doesn't add more than a kg if they do some clever engineering.

I believe some of these improvement could be made to the current Elise but without the US market (California) to support it, it is sort of a wasted investment. However if indeed the next Exige is VVA based, which means is for all intent and purpose a shortened strict 2 seater Evora, I don't see why it Lotus would not apply the same strategy further down the road to an entry model car. Lotus is doing better at the moment because I think commonalities between all three models have never been higher. Having all sports cars except for the halo model share the tub and a maximum of parts in the future would not break the bank and would actually lower the cost across the board.  

 

 

 

 

[Jeanvm]

Nico, what you precisely describes is similar to the following, which I already had in 1986.
And it was a success also in the USA.

 

[NedaSay]

^^Nice MR2 

Now I think a new Elise will have a supercar worthy design and of course sub 1000kg in base form. 

[C8RKH]

The ubiquitous cup holders and fancy non essential bits will push it beyond that slightly. But hey, we'll have a clone german spec car built in Norfolk. Whoopee...

[Sport220]

A "clone german spec car"? Just because it will get a bit heavier and more appealing to the market?

The entry level Boxster has a kerb weight of 1335kg, if Lotus can keep the new Elise at under 1000kg dry it would still be very light.

An Evora 400 weighs 1415kg and I don't see people going on about it.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Sport220

[C8RKH]

@Sport220 I was being sarcastic! Referring to all the comments about how to sell a sports car in the US it seems to need to be specified with luxury that would have befitted a Bentley or a Roller only a few years ago.

Apologies if my sarcasm was misplaced and also the Evora is a hell of a lot more car than the Elise that we were actually talking about so the comparison is invalid. The original Elise S1 was 713kg with a full tank of fuel so even a comparison with a 1000kg new car would make the new car a lardy arse by comparison. The original S1 was almost half the weight of the Boxster that you refer to.

S2 Elises were around the 800kg mark with the latest fully kitted out cars almost reaching 1100kg!  Some 350kg or 50% more than the original S1.

Yes, i know that safety equipment and stuff has resulted in heavier cars, but still the ethos of light is right is in my mind what Lotus must continue to ruthlessly pursue as its differentiator in the market place. It is after all what all the original Lotus cars was about so is inherently a part of the DNA. We need the Motorsport team put back together more than Jake and Elwood needed The Band! 

My Evora is a great car, but my VX220 is awesome on the track. It has the same power as my Evora but weighs some 450kg less (900kg with SC and intercooler) and you really do feel that difference.

I do believe you could find 1,000 people, in a country of 260m people, who would appreciate the raw ultimate driving machine that a new Elise model could be with 260bhp and around 850kg in weight minus the obligatory cup holders and 42" OLED TV and concert quality surround sound hifi with extra seat and trim foam cushioning    Shit, there goes that sarcasm again.......   Gotta catch it.......

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

There's no two ways about it. We've all gone soft.

Yesterday I took my recently acquired 1991 Ferrari Mondial T cabrio out for a quick run, just to give it some winter exercise. Now this is the model that was always regarded as the Boulevardier/Family/Poseur/Hairdresser Ferrari. However, you still need thighs the size of tree trunks to operate the clutch and stamp on the effective brakes, and a left arm as strong as Popeye's to change the upside down gears. Sure it's got power steering, ABS, adjustable dampers, air con and electric windows, but it's still a true visceral work-out to drive. It's got just enough cabin stowage for a wallet and a (small) mobile phone. Hood-up the roof's as noisy as hell over 60mph. Hood-down and it looks like the tonneau cover's going to fly away at anything over 70mph. In fact you feel like you're doing 100mph, when you're only at 70mph.

I then stepped straight into my Evora GTE for a similar run. Honestly it's as easy as driving your mum's super-mini in comparison. Simple and slick operation of the gearbox and pedals, comfortable cabin, planted handling, terrific brakes, ample performance. In complete contrast to the Ferrari, you feel like you're doing 70mph when you're actually doing 100mph (like JMG!). In fact anyone could drive it.

So all this is a round-about way of saying that it would be a great shame if Lotus discontinued the no-frills model range offered by the Elise. Believe it or not, we really don't need any luxuries to enjoy the rewards of a basic sports car.

[Sport220]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

@Sport220 I was being sarcastic! Referring to all the comments about how to sell a sports car in the US it seems to need to be specified with luxury that would have befitted a Bentley or a Roller only a few years ago.

Apologies if my sarcasm was misplaced and also the Evora is a hell of a lot more car than the Elise that we were actually talking about so the comparison is invalid. The original Elise S1 was 713kg with a full tank of fuel so even a comparison with a 1000kg new car would make the new car a lardy arse by comparison. The original S1 was almost half the weight of the Boxster that you refer to.

S2 Elises were around the 800kg mark with the latest fully kitted out cars almost reaching 1100kg!  Some 350kg or 50% more than the original S1.

Yes, i know that safety equipment and stuff has resulted in heavier cars, but still the ethos of light is right is in my mind what Lotus must continue to ruthlessly pursue as its differentiator in the market place. It is after all what all the original Lotus cars was about so is inherently a part of the DNA. We need the Motorsport team put back together more than Jake and Elwood needed The Band! 

My Evora is a great car, but my VX220 is awesome on the track. It has the same power as my Evora but weighs some 450kg less (900kg with SC and intercooler) and you really do feel that difference.

I do believe you could find 1,000 people, in a country of 260m people, who would appreciate the raw ultimate driving machine that a new Elise model could be with 260bhp and around 850kg in weight minus the obligatory cup holders and 42" OLED TV and concert quality surround sound hifi with extra seat and trim foam cushioning    Shit, there goes that sarcasm again.......   Gotta catch it.......

I don't believe the comparison is invalid.

What the Elise is supposed to be to a Boxster, the Evora should be to a 911. Which isn't true, at least in the case of the 400, which undercuts a 991.2 Carrera S by just 25kg (and a Carrera by 15), if carfolio's data is accurate.

With today's safety requirements, there's no way an Elise could weigh as much as the original model, yet a 1.6 Sprint can have a dry weight of less than 800kg, which is as or even more remarkable today than an S1 22 years ago. Don't think it could get any ligther without getting even more expensive.  

 

[Sport220]

The production of the Lotus Elise Sport 140, as well as the automatic versions of the Exige Sport 350 IPS and Sport 380 IPS will be stopped.

 

[C8RKH]

Interesting snippet from Caterham CEO.

 

MacDonald also believes that last year’s sales of 667 units, equating to a 51-car increase on 2016, illustrates a growing global market for driver's cars that Caterham can tap into. He revealed that in some markets, dealers are taking “10 or 20 deposits” for Sevens as buyers want to secure their build slot as quickly as possible.

“Our team recognises that the US market is a big opportunity, because while we currently have to send cars there in kit form [to bestow them with kit-car exemption from federal regulations], there’s talk of them opening up to historical classics, which we’d fall into," he said.

"And I’m also convinced there are more markets for growing our motorsport [championships], such as China, Russia and emerging countries where wealthy entrepreneurs want to go racing."

[Bibs]

He's my neighbour, I had a beer with him last Friday

[NedaSay]

On 1/31/2018 at 07:28, Sport220 said:

The production of the Lotus Elise Sport 140, as well as the automatic versions of the Exige Sport 350 IPS and Sport 380 IPS will be stopped.

 

Not really surprising. 

The entry level Elise was probably not the the best seller in the Elise range but did exist in order to get Lotus emission low.

If the Elise is set to survive a little while longer it may not mean that it won't get a raft of upgrade including a new entry level powertrain from within the group to save money.

The Exige IPS models were not high volume sellers either. The Exige is not by any measure not the most "auto" sought after car especially with its absence from the US market.

I may also take this as a sign that one of the two future cars is actually the Exige replacement.

 

[geartox]

I hope that a new sequential/automatic gearbox will be provided with the Exige.

Gales has said that the current toyota engine can generate more power, but the manual gearbox can not follow. So manual or automatic, something has to evolve.

 

[Loquacious Lew]

There's been some hyperbole  that doesn't take market forces and reality into account.  Technology doesn't add weight in any meaningful way.  We can have blind spot monitoring, a damn useful feature, for very little if any  added weight.  Highest quality fit and finish weighs no more than lesser build. Service access for routine replacement of parts has to be considered in a street design.  BOE here in the states makes a kit that allows the rear clam to tilt up (Elise) making service access possible and eliminating the requirement to remove the clam to replace belts, accessories or spark plugs.  These are sensible features to consider in future designs. I think it's quite a stretch to think  this turns the car into a Bentley or a Porsche. Rather, I suggest it makes us competitive in a world obsessed by such features, some of which are actually desirable or useful yet don't interfere with the basic functions of the car.  Even at the low end, this stuff is already available in the Miatas we'd like to compete with.  

Such an approach gives people fewer reasons not to buy. I don't personally care about Apple car play or high spec stereos but there are many current owners of our cars who do, not to mention  those who might be swayed to look at a Lotus but write them off because the technology they perceive to be necessary just isn't available. Many of these things things weigh little if any more than any other application; essentially nothing.  Who doesn't want better sound in their cars?  It's not necessarily  a matter of weight, rather of initial design since we're already including the basic parts needed.  Future cars would just implement it from the start and design would consider  these things in the basic architecture.  These are the kinds of benefits we can get when the cars are designed from the start for broad appeal and greater sales volume.   Couple this with class leading warranties and service,  focused, creative marketing  and the other qualities  we expect in modern cars and we can expand the appeal of Lotus' cars without abandoning the primary qualities  of lightness, agility and playfulness.  

America is potentially Lotus' biggest market.  Hopes that China will be a big market for Lotus are certainly germane but at the moment if you research Lotus sales in China, statistics aren't even to be found.  We already have Lotus cars that hew closely to the original formula and we know how many of these cars are being sold currently in their respective markets.  If we want the company to grow, suggestions that feature sets and build need a re-think should be taken seriously.  Multiple cup holders are ridiculous, but if they sell cars and grow dealerships here, why fight it? Americans (namely me!) commenting here are already new Lotus owners. I was not deterred  by a perceived lack of features.  I bought a 400 despite that.  These things can be found on any $25000 car but I appreciate what the 400 ...... the only car available to me......is and represents.   I must say again that there are not enough of people like me to change the company's future in this country nor, I think, even in Great Britain as well.   And I think using the Evora as a point of discussion is well within the spirit of this thread's title.  No doubt the "new Elise" does represent a great opportunity here as well, but are we not discussing Lotus as a whole?  

If we want Lotus to grow, it needs to develop solutions to these questions that don't dilute the fundamental things that attract us to Lotus in the first place.  This is not an impossible task, rather  it's a necessary one.  One, I think, Lotus can achieve and excel at (no pun there!) and  one that can be accomplished without adding undue weight. Nobody is demanding  Lotus be the most efficient, least expensive car on the market.  I don't think that's the winning formula.  Offering value for money, focusing relentlessly on quality, giving people what they need and want, this is what a successful and fully funded Lotus will be focusing on.  We should not be surprised and should be willing to embrace Lotus' future.  I think a sensible approach taking these things into account will be something a broader base of clients will appreciate.   Properly and smartly done, we'll like it too.  

 

 

 

 

 

[BfranklynV6]

On 30/01/2018 at 17:08, The Pits said:

Handling comes first in an Elise. In theory a normally aspirated Toyota flat four could lower the cofg and improve that. Compared to the existing Toyota inline four the soundtrack could be improved, unlike the move from na flat 6 to turbo flat four in the Boxster.

I'm actually in favour of promoting and developing the current range because I still see the potential both in the cars and in terms of sales. I fear that for an all-new Lotus to be a success it will have to be less appealing to those of us crazy enough to buy them now. I'd definitely rather Lotus developed a car closer to the MX5 (which was heavily inspired by the Elan after all) but with sports car sales in steady long term decline it would be a very bold (some would say foolish) move to go that way instead of the inevitable SUV. I would personally be in favour of a model above the Evora and one below the Elise, so I'd look at both ends, scrap the SUV and keep Lotus as a dedicated sports car maker. But what do I know? I would have fired the guy at Porsche who suggested the Cayenne!

The Toyota FA20 is a bit of a pig. At 210kg it weighs significantly more than the V6 in the Exige. Also, with the stock headers and tune it has a horrible torque dip right around 2.5-3.5k rpm, I.e. the range you tend to be driving it in. They either needed to keep the GT86 to 1000kg, or supply the car with forced induction.

I wouldn’t chose it for the Elise. To sell the Elise in the states id give it a little more interior refinement, and a 300bhp, light 2L turbo. If numbers sell cars in the states, this would be a 3.5 seconds 0-62 and still have great handling characteristics.

[The Pits]

If that's the case then a Volvo sourced turbo four might be a better solution after all. No idea what they weigh but the lighter the engine the better for an Elise, naturally.

[NW76]

I bet within the next 12-18 month (prior to the new Elise) we will see a Exige/Evora that is superior to the 430s  that will have a Volvo Turbo charged engine. The engines are already in Hethel arent they? ;-) 

Cheers

Norbert