Future of Lotus

[jonnyboy]

Well I was about to say I bow to your superior factory contacts Bibs but someone is telling you fibs about the parts. It's just as bad as ever. They don't even have CDL modules in that have been out for 24 months plus! 

I have it on what I thought was pretty good authority on the Elise so we will see. Same info from a handful of sources too. Clearly it cant be arriving in 2020 as it would surely have been spotted testing or there would be some kind of detail on what to expect? They could be getting an order book filled up. I think I'd stick a desposit down for the business I don't think I could stand the stress of a personal purchase again

[Bibs]

I've got access to the parts system here, pop me a part number and I'll have a gander. 

The situation at Lotus is very dynamic, remember there's a new tranche of management who are installing their own plans, but that Elise news is fresh from a chat I had with a very senior member of staff last week. 

[CocoPops]

A120E0167F

[Bibs]

ETA 23/7/2018. 

[Brendonian]

I'm certainly not privy to any inside information, but there has been a lot of talk of the Elise being 'for the chop' based on the the fact that Lotus haven't announced any plans for a replacement. It seems quite possible to me that they'll just stick with slowly evolving the existing model. No need for reinventing the car entirely.

[PaulLF1]

Surely a cheaper version of the Elise to get people driving a Lotus before they bring out the new models?

[jonnyboy]

That market has gone though. Alfa 4c also canned. 

The Alpine is the nearest thing a manufacturer has done to properly supersede the Elise.  Even Renault with the scale of economy they have still lumbered it with a 50k price tag which is just too expensive. Again aiming for the 718 which is a bit of a daft thing to do. They could have almost totally owned a sector of the market at 40k but maybe these days it's just not possible to build them cheap enough. 

Bibs can you please send me 2 CDL modules

[CocoPops]

That part has only been on back order since 21st June (for me)... so I suppose one month isn’t ... bad

 

[PAR]

Hi Bibs, any chance you can tell me about that part: A132U0969S

I feel like I may need to complain to my dealer..

[Julian73]

On 15/07/2018 at 10:51, jonnyboy said:

McLaren show the way that a brand is the car. They are pretty and go quick but the fact the brand is out there in front of a billion people winning races is the top thing that will sell a McLaren.

 

When did McLaren last place on a podium, let alone win a race.

10 hours ago, Brendonian said:

...No need for reinventing the car entirely.

It needs reinventing to be able to sell  in the North American market

[Steffen_Leitgeb-LSWGmbh]

8 hours ago, Julian73 said:

When did McLaren last place on a podium, let alone win a race.

 

I also think winning races in F1 is/was important to launch McLaren street cars. They have no heritage. They came "naked". They had to rely on F1.

But maybe some people still think if Hamilton wins in the Mercedes their street McLaren is a part of that 😉  

 

  

[NedaSay]

Well we may have to wait until Geneva 2019 to see the first effects of Geely on the current line up. The brand is now secure financially thanks to Geely acquisition. They don't need to come with specials every other week but they may continue to do so just to remain in the limelight a little bit. No need to come out with a 450 right now, especially if the initial allocation of 430 has not ran its course either... I know Lotus has done weirder stuff before but really there's no need for a repeat.

Getting a 20bhp powerboost only requires a chip retune, a change of gearbox. Whether they choose to remain with Aisin or switch to Getrag, they both have a gearbox (Auto/DSG) able to cope with more torque, the manual may still be a sticking point but it can be sourced too.  They could go crazy with a new intake, cam, pistons etc. The GR-FE has been tuned to in stock form at 7200 rpm by tuners before,  it has been pushed to 500 bhp.... But the engine is also at the end of its life, the GR-FE architecture dates from 2002 the 2GR-FE was introduced in 2004 and Toyota only makes it for their minivans as well as the Lexus ES. When will Toyota decide to phase the engine out is unknown to me but considering they are downsizing and hybridizing all the cars that used to have this engine, it may not be long. Will Toyota keep producing it solely for Lotus? I doubt it. They have a contract with terms, terms can be renewed and/or amended... Lotus could decide to switch to a more modern application of the GR that would fit like the 2GR-FKS or switch to a Geely unit.

Anyway , If Evora is to be reinvented to be more appealing to the US market, I think it needs more of a cabin tech, ergonomics overhaul which may require the new loom, in order to offer all the gadgetry north americans are used to, that in itself does take time to implement, as the loom will be "bespoke" to the car. There must be already a lot of work going on behind closed doors at Hethel and elsewhere within the group to make the "Lotus loom" as flexible and cost effective as it needs to be. JMG hinted at it being derived from Volvo architecture, it is to serve as the spine of the future sports models and may be retrofitted to models that will remain in the line up a while longer provided the get a thorough refresh, These major refresh do take time.

 

[jonnyboy]

I think you are right in that Geneva 2019 will tell us everything we have been waiting to hear for all this time. Will they or will they not attend would be the first hurdle to overcome imho.  Lotus to me still don't look like a company that are gearing up to launch 2 or 3 cars. I really hope they are but time will tell. 

[Bibs]

11 minutes ago, jonnyboy said:

Lotus to me still don't look like a company that are gearing up to launch 2 or 3 cars. I really hope they are but time will tell. 

They did just recruit well over 100 engineers to work on internal projects. Can't think of a better way of looking like a company about to do that kind of thing? 

[jonnyboy]

Depends if they are new staff or staff they laid off and set back on with lower salaries/poorer terms as previously? 

[Bibs]

New staff. In fact, Lotus pay pretty well by industry standards. 

[jonnyboy]

OK. Let's just see what 2019 brings. 

[Bibs]

[Spinney]

It seems to me there is an awful lot of negativity going on about the future of Lotus and I can't really understand quite why that is. Car brands can be reinvented; just look at what VW have done with Skoda, the laughing stock of Eastern Europe not that long ago. Geely are fast becoming a global brand and are probably one of the fastest growing car companies in the world.

They didn't buy Lotus to muck about and, precisely as they have done with Volvo, I'm certain they understand just what the Lotus brand stands for and will build on that. It won't happen overnight nor as quickly as the keyboard warriors on the various forums would want, but I am convinced they have the intent and obviously the money, to do what Lotus have so desperately needed for so long. Give it time and they will do it, of that I am 100% certain.

[jonnyboy]

Well the thing is they didn't go out into the market and buy Lotus. Lotus came with a bunch of other stuff they bought. I would imagine they have spent the last 10 months digging through the  books and seeing what they have actually got. 

The positive thing for these far eastern companies is that they really do value brands and heritage as you can do things with an old British brand that you simply cant't do from scratch in Korea (look how long it's taken Kia to get where they are literally a generation). The question is what they want to do with it. It's not about negativity its about realism. The fact is the sector has shrunk and the sector we are daydreaming they might go for is a tad crowded already and occupied by those pesky Germans. 

In ideal world I think we would all love to see an all new £30k Elise that would sell 20000 units and a GT4/3/McLaren rival that comes the top of all the group tests but the reality is that to do all that and make money is a much harder challenge in the world we live in now than it was in the mid 90's when the S1 came along and Lotus had it's best period. 

We are certainly entering an interesting period in the company's existence but I have a feeling it may transpire to be interesting for different reasons for different people. I personally think Lotus are a bit of a victim of the sector shifting on them and obviously the legislative barriers that make producing a new new car such a big ordeal. It's not an easy task and all us as Lotus fanatics (and I am!) can do is order their products. And look where that fecking got me! Maybe just praying could be a less stressful contribution

[Bibs]

22 minutes ago, jonnyboy said:

Well the thing is they didn't go out into the market and buy Lotus

They could have immediately offloaded Lotus, £51m to them is chicken feed. Remember they spent 175 times that to take a single digit shareholding (albeit a major one) in Daimler. Instead they didn't, they're ploughing large sums of money into them and the Chairman of Geely has publicly stated he wants Lotus toe-to-toe with Porsche. 

These are the beginnings of what could potentially be a real golden era for Lotus. They're not forgetting their core market and they're also planning on huge things. 

Embrace it, enjoy it

[jonnyboy]

Well let's hope so. All I have been saying is that to make progress in this modern market is very very difficult almost impossible in fact but hopefully they will kick out some decent cars trying. 

[Bibs]

It's not so bad when you're a $27bn company, that's a lot of cash to throw around. Audi for comparison has a market capital of sub $15bn. 

[Spinney]

As a Lotus buyer of 50 years and having seen them close to the brink of bankruptcy numerous times through that period, I agree with Bibs that this is potentially the beginning of a golden era for the company. Geely have the necessary financial clout and if they have the determination for Lotus to go toe to toe with Porsche, it would be a very brave man who would bet against it. 

[NedaSay]

1 hour ago, jonnyboy said:

I think you are right in that Geneva 2019 will tell us everything we have been waiting to hear for all this time. Will they or will they not attend would be the first hurdle to overcome imho.  Lotus to me still don't look like a company that are gearing up to launch 2 or 3 cars. I really hope they are but time will tell. 

They just attended Goodwood with a full line up of cars including a tribute car and 2 specials.

They have been gearing up quietly but we have to realize that they now have a lot more might (not to say brute force) at their disposal. It is pretty much invisible as it is mostly not in England, yet they have now access to staff and ressources from LEVC in Coventry, Volvo and CEVT in mainland Europe and Geely in China. Lotus was down to around 800 staff to I think 1000 right now (@Bibs correct me please) and over 10,000 engineers scattered around the globe. They have access to quality components (Volvo) and a very solid supply chain (Geely). Higher ups at Geely have already mentioned the fact that the SUV will be partly engineered in Coventry at LEVC before being possibly made in Chengdu (Geely's main campus) So we may never even see a prototype before it hits the show floor if they don't willingly leak images of said SUV, when it will undoubtedly go for winter test at Volvo's facility in Trondheim.  

I'm not even talking about the financial aspect, but Geely is bullish on establishing Lotus on solid footing but taking their time to do things right in a similar but not identical way to they did with Volvo.

https://www.just-auto.com/analysis/lotus-under-geely-whats-the-plan_id183501.aspx

That above, is a fluff piece as many people have more questions than answers and Lotus may keep us guessing for a while. which is not a bad thing. What i think we don't want is a repeat of the DB debacle, if we see a refreshed Evora next March it won't be a surprise it might be a very mild thing, just enough to keep us wanting for more.  

Edited July 17, 2018 by NedaSay