General Election - 8 June 2017

[Barrykearley]

Remind me again which government gave gp's a massive pay rise, stopped them having to do out of hours which has ultimately caused chaos with the a&e departments. 

Now remind me about the disgusting pfi arrangements......

and don't start me off on tax credits which actually pays folks to sit on their ass

[Barrykearley]

42 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

We need to get the benefits bill under control. make sure that those that genuinely need it get more of it. Those that don't really need should not get it. But every time we talk about this we get accused of attacking the helpless. Well, that is not what I am saying. What i am saying is find the genuinely feckless and useless scrounging b'tards and stop ALL of their benefits. Use that money to fund the cases of genuine need. Ooops, I've opened up a whole new can of worms her for the Corbynites to attack me.....  I'm ready.....

What about the chap up the road from me who's been hit by the cap.

hardly done a day's work in his life. 4 kids, 3 cars and hit by the benefit cap and having to pay towards his council tax......... he's just one of many.

but in balance - it's not a lot of the budget - but it's not fair and not right and needs stopping. We have hundreds of thousands of these lazy workshy scum sucking out of our system 

[C8RKH]

That's exactly the person I was talking about.

Also did not mean to suggest all pensioners pay no tax, the vast majority though don't as they live on the state pension which is below the threshold. You get my jist though that as more of us live longer we have an ever growing population segment with a higher need for care and health and the NHS cannot cover it. Simple maths.

[Barrykearley]

Oh the BBC - voter fatigue......

ffs - how much effort is it really to haul your ass to the voting booth and scrawl a cross in a box.

I for one thank all those who gave their today for our tomorrow. It's for this reason everyone should be compelled to vote 

[Kimbers]

To bring some balance in to this. My daughter is a single mom. Until she had my Grand Daughter she had always worked, mostly in the car industry with me. However now my Grandaughter is at Nursery she has started working again and in a "good Job" on Security and Immigration. However, for working 22 hours a week they have docked not only her unemployment but her housing benefit meaning she is actually worse off when taking into account her travelling costs. And this doesn't even include the cost of Nursery.

Whilst I agree, genuine scroungers need to be sought out, we need a system that actually encourages people to go back to or start work. Why does she lose a pound every time she earns one over 16 hours a week? They should maybe make it so people lose 1 pound for every 4-5 they earn then there is an incentive!

I also agree with Dan. SOME Big Business gets away with murder in terms of Taxes in the UK. We all know them. Costa, Amazon, Google  etc etc. If they don't want to pay corporation tax in the country they operate in then they shouldn't be allowed to operate in that country.

So, back to the election. I am trying to figure out who to vote for and I am stuck. This may be the first election in 32 years that I don't vote in purely because I don't really agree with any of them.

Labour: Never with Corbyn in Charge, that throw back to the bad old days of uncontrolled spending, Inflation and Strikes. Plus, how can I vote for someone who wants to tax me more just because I do 2 jobs and work hard?

Libs: What a joke. Not only do they want us in Europe they want us even more entwined and in the Euro as well!

UKIP: Spent force now and in fighting has marginalised them hugely and I don't trust them

Conservatives: I dislike May so much that I can't vote for them. She has single handedly destroyed the Police Service, NHS and Ambulance with her cuts and attitude. 

So there we have it! Monster raving looney party it is!

[Chillidoggy]

I've long thought that benefit payments should be on some kind of scale whereby the kind of thing you describe doesn't happen. Rather than losing a complete payment, it should be partially adjusted to take into account earnings, so that claimants are always better off working, but don't take a big hit on their total income. As to whether a governmental computer system would be able to do that is however a matter for debate, despite everything supposedly being linked online.

In the same vein - why does my new car insurer always have to ask me to provide proof of no-claims when we are told that all their information is shared between insurance companies?

[C8RKH]

I actually think we need to have a total rethink of our "benefits" system and we need to shift the emphasis to making work pay - the ONLY party that really wants to do this is the Tory party though and that just leads to constant jibes about benefit cuts etc. and the whole point just get's lost.

My view is we need to radically shake up the tax system, and first and foremost we need to include all "benefit" payments someone receives in the calculation. So we start to look at peoples "income" whether it is earned income or benefits/welfare/pension income. Let's have a level playing field for all.

What we then need to do is to understand what is a reasonable "living wage". Right now, in the UK, I would say it should be around £25k pa. So, the first £25k of any and all income (wages or benefits, or wages plus benefits etc.) that an individual receives is "tax free" - i.e. the personal tax allowance is set to £25k.  In a flash this would provide an immediate incentive and benefit to all people paid £25k or below and would allow them to at least live a semi-decent existence which is surely what we want for all in the UK. It would also lift a couple of million out of paying tax - surely that is a good thing for the lowest paid in our society?

There needs to be a serious crackdown on benefit cheats - by cheats I mean people who are making fraudulent claims. I am not in any way advocating that genuine claimants are hounded or bullied. This is only fair to the rest of the population who either need benefits or are paying for the benefits through taxation.

Earnings should then be taxed in bands - my recommendation would be from £25k to £40K should be taxed at 10% and from £40k to £60k at 20%, £60 - £80k at 30% and £80-£100k at 40% with all earnings over £100k at 50%.

This would make work pay and would be simple for people to understand and yet still provide an incentive for people to strive to earn more.

When looking at benefits the total household income should be looked at - I know some people on benefits who have a total household income of over £50k. I am sorry, but that is not right (I am not talking about health related benefits here).

I don't agree with using "one off" cases like your daughter @Kimbers for the simple fact that for every one legitimate case like your daughter we will be able to find an alternative "shocking" case of fraud or cheating.  It's too emotive to bring in family for that very reason, they are family.

Also, I understand NHS nurses like your wife are underpaid. i get it. i really do. But then I will throw back at you the fact that house prices in my village have gone through the roof in the last 10 years as all properties that have come on to the market have been "overbid" for by Medics - the only people who can now afford them made worse by us being on the edge of the "catchment area" for a major teaching hospital.  

My neighbours now are all GP's (either one or both), Anaesthetists, Bone Surgeons, Eye Surgeons, Medical Consultants, A&E Consultants - all of them are earning as a household £100k+ (if one working) to over £200 - £250k and more if both are working - so forgive me if my "view" of the hardship of people who work in the NHS is different to yours!  

They have priced my children and everyone else out of the housing market locally as they have regularly been able to afford to bid 30, 40 or even 50% above the asking price.  Again, as I said, for every hard news story, we can find an alternative good news one.  The NHS and its funding system is broken. It needs radical reform and maybe even a dose of privatisation for those that can pay - so as I said before, I can pay £40 to see my GP so maybe I should. But then if you look at how much tax I also contribute annually I think WTF, why should I pay on top of what I am already paying which is an eye watering sum for me.

There will always be winners and losers - but hard graft and hard work should provide more "benefit" to an individual than sitting on your arse.  I've worked my way up through the ranks from the bottom. It's taken me 33 years to get there and we, as a family have had to make a load of sacrifices and I missed a lot of my kids growing up through working away.  I'm now reaping the rewards I suppose. But it wasn't easy and I was determined to get a better standard of living and can now help my adult kids out as a result.  But too many people in this country want to sit on their arses or just bitch and whinge about how unfair life is. The truth is, if you get off your arse, you can find a job. If you work hard you can get a better job. You just need to have the will and the can do attitude and I for one have no truck with lazy slackers who want to live solely (that is the key word here - not low paid hard working people who need benefits to top up their earnings - I get that and their work needs to sustain them too) on benefits and expect everyone else to pay for their lives. These lazy oxygen thieves need to understand that "work must pay", not laziness or fecklessness. The only party with the balls to address this is the Tory's.  Whether we like it or not, my simple view is we need to redress the balance and so Mrs. May will get my vote over Corbyn (I'm still living in the dark ages); Farron (I'm irrelevant and clueless but let's all have a happy clap session); UKIP - can't even remember who leads them so enough said really and the Greens - (see UKIP).  The choices we have are not great. But if we want a stronger, growing United Kingdom (which we need to fund the NHS) then the only choice is Tory I'm afraid. Remember, Labour emptied the coffers last time and left the cupboard bare. They'll do it again in record time under Corbyn and we'll all be bloke.  Just my points of view. Accept that not everyone will agree.

[Kimbers]

@C8RKH I can't agree with you on my daughter's current situation as this is the same for everyone. No matter whether you are my daughter or someone else, especially for single moms and new parents, there is no incentive to return to work for anyone over 16 hours. that's Universal mate as it's the same rule for everyone.

 

[C8RKH]

I think you missed my points @Kimbers - I'm not saying the current situation is fair at all. Hence my ideas around how to possibly make it better and to incentivise people back to work. However, with salary (let alone benefits added to), I bet your daughter earns more than mine as she has a good job in security and immigration.

My daughter is 23 and has a 2:1 degree in international business and is paid an annual base salary of £12.5k a year by BA ( I guess that's how they managed to only make pre-tax profits of £2bn a year in 16/17 - oh, that and now making us pay £3 for a cup of tea on a UK flight costing £250+! ) which works out at about £7.50 per hour.

She has to pay rent on a room near Heathrow out of that of £6k a year and then she needs to pay council tax, all other bills on top and get herself to the airport and back at all sorts of odd times. She gets no help nor state benefits from anyone other than Bank of Mum and Dad, and even there, she asks for nothing from us.  I guess it's hard for me to say that work is paying off for her! However, she is ambitious and wants to try for the Pilot's course and is looking at other jobs further down the line to grow her skills and her salary. I'm proud she has the work ethic and she will get there.

Gents, just out of interest, bear the above in mind the next time you want to rant at cabin crew on a flight as you may want to think if it really is them you should be ranting at. They really are not paid enough to deal with some of the self righteous demanding pricks who fly, and as I fly at least twice a week every week believe me, there are tons of them!

The task we need to set ourselves @Kimbers is not to race to the bottom with examples of poor pay, hardship and situations, but to try to identify solutions that give everyone the opportunity to have a decent life and that is why the fairest way is to lift the threshold for paying tax to a much higher level and make sure that those who abuse the system are caught and the abuse stopped.. 

[Barrykearley]

Minimum wage is £7.50 an hour ??

benefits cap is £24k a year - anyone else not see a disconnect 

We should not be handing out free money - but allowing people the ability to better themselves

[Chillidoggy]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

My neighbours now are all GP's (either one or both), Anaesthetists, Bone Surgeons, Eye Surgeons, Medical Consultants, A&E Consultants

 

 

Handy for when the coronary arrives, eh?

[C8RKH]

Yup. You can earn £10k a year more on benefits than you can working 36 hours a week on the minimum wage. Great deal.

Just now, ian29gte said:

 

Handy for when the coronary arrives, eh?

Not really. I'll probably get a hospital infection and die anyway. Always look on the bright side....

[Chillidoggy]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Yup. You can earn £10k a year more on benefits than you can working 36 hours a week on the minimum wage. Great deal.

Not really. I'll probably get a hospital infection and die anyway. Always look on the bright side....

 

You're lucky HMRC hasn't classed your neighbours as benefit in kind.

[Kimbers]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/labour-campaign-to-focus-on-updating-cvs-2-20170418126228

[basalte]

We still spend less of our GDP expressed as a percentage on healthcare compared with other Western European countries (but at least we manage to stick more people in jail as a percentage of population than the rest of them) (sarcasm) .

It all went a bit quiet after publication of the Panama papers revealing the billions secretly held abroad in tax havens. Some of those tax havens are under British control-the Caymans etc , we should assert that control to get them to tip up their piggybanks and tax `em not least because their massive funds simply cannot be spent by anyone in their lifetimes.  

I don`t think that anyone can claim some kind of universal cure for the problems this country faces. But  a good start would be to accept that massive investment in infrastructure and renationalising strategic industry must be undertaken to revive manufacturing of hi-tech products - the key is investment. The idea is that we get a return on our investment. The real "saboteurs" are the billionaires who won`t accept that. 

Funny that old Jeremy Corbyn himself specifically referred to Colin Chapman`s outfit a few months ago as an example of the kind of entrepreneurial spirit that just wouldn`t get bankrolled by our greedy banks any more (probably because his mate`s son edits "Practical Classics" ).  

1945 saw this country exhausted and in massive debt to the USA  as a result of WW2. But we still managed to set up a free at the point of use National Health Service. But now sadly, it`s seen as something where bits of paper and round pieces of metal speak louder than the prerequisites for human existence.   

People who want change for the majority are, by definition,  always going to get a hard ride from those in power who either want things as they are. Change also involves short term disruption.

Hardened Brexiters and anti-Brexiters can agree on that much.

Any way there`ll be a chance for Theresa May to debate the issues with her rivals soon ! 

What`s that ?

She has refused ?

Really ?

I thought the others especially Corbyn were useless she`d run rings round them !

No you heard it right....she refuses to appear in any TV debate. In an election that I think we can all agree, is important.

The truth is that she will be a floundering, inarticulate, callous bureaucrat when forced to go off-script. The Empress has no clothes but I accept that if you read the Telegraph Mail Sun Express that will not be the (rather disturbing I admit) picture you will be presented with. .      

[Kimbers]

It may be important but will people care enough to vote or, like me, are just fed up with their shit and generally think Politicians should all be put in a field with several hundred rabid bulls and see who escapes. They are the next govt.

[Barrykearley]

That's true - but you must vote. A lot of people gave their lives in two world wars for our right to be a democratic country.

the system stinks - there's no doubt about that - but this could just well be the start of something  truely revolutionary 

[Chillidoggy]

The problem with the NHS is simple: There's too many people using it, and no-one wants to pay for it.

[Barrykearley]

Then let's talk about elective surgery, sex changes, breast enlargement, face lifts, tummy tucks........ 

then the health service tourists - one of whom had triplets and run up hundreds of thousands in care bills with no way of paying.

then consider the agency nurses pay rates, the middle management ripping thousands out and the fat cats at the top rob dogging it blind.

the NHS was not founded to look after any of the above

[Kimbers]

My wife says a pack of Paracetamol that costs us 25 pence costs the NHS £3.83. Apparantly that is the "net cost" after purchasing have been paid and the negotiators and etc etc.

They issue "Sterile packs" which have everything from needles and pads to dressings and scissors. The pack costs £10 and can only be used once. So if you need a Syringe you open the pack and the rest is no longer sterile so gets thrown away.

You can get it all seperately but many keep the packs for emergencies then are used by people who need something quickly.

 

[DaveyT]

8 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

My wife says a pack of Paracetamol that costs us 25 pence costs the NHS £3.83. Apparantly that is the "net cost" after purchasing have been paid and the negotiators and etc etc.

They issue "Sterile packs" which have everything from needles and pads to dressings and scissors. The pack costs £10 and can only be used once. So if you need a Syringe you open the pack and the rest is no longer sterile so gets thrown away.

You can get it all seperately but many keep the packs for emergencies then are used by people who need something quickly.

 

^^yup...5-6 years ago I could buy a PC from curry's for under £400, 

a client who worked for the NHS told me that, with all their purchasing power, the same unit cost them £930

go figure...

[pete]

7 hours ago, Kimbers said:

@C8RKH I can't agree with you on my daughter's current situation as this is the same for everyone. No matter whether you are my daughter or someone else, especially for single moms and new parents, there is no incentive to return to work for anyone over 16 hours. that's Universal mate as it's the same rule for everyone.

 

There was a time when the father supported  the family or is that not the modern way

[Barrykearley]

I've said it time and time again. We are utterly lacking in "responsibility" in today's society. Everything is about rights and entitlement - properly boils me.

[C8RKH]

The modern way is to expect the state to provide.

some people just fail to realise that the NHS, benefits, nationalisation, investment, R&D etc all costs, wait for it..... money.

they think we live in a land where money grows on trees and national debt should just go on and on and on.

so what gives? What do we stop spending on to fund the other stuff? It's easy to just ssy it's all shit and just borrow more to spend more. That's how we got into this bloody mess but oh, what's that I see. Well, a bucket of sand. I think I'll just stick my head it and eveything will be ok. ( sarcasm ).

[Barrykearley]

Don't bloody mention foreign aid budgets, just don't, we even sent money to North Korea last year.