New 410 musings - Ex Cayman

[Bibs]

Back on topic please chaps, the direction this conversation has taken isn't helping anyone. 

[pete757]

Tim is a very cool dude guys! 😎

A totally dedicated Lotus owner!

As is every Evora owner! 😉

All good. 

[tim_marra]

Blimey. Thanks Pete.

Takes two to tango though 

[pete757]

Nothing like a good dance mate! 🤣

[Techyd]

I’ve spent the day in a 410 today, I pretty much agree with this topics first post about the car with the single exception on the ride - for me I found it very firm, and just a bit more more than I would be comfortable with long term as Jonny says it’s not jarring but it is very firm and too much for long distances, at least for me. That being said it settles in to a much more fluid ride above ~50mph.

The noise was epic and the attention it seemed to draw really surprised me!!

I was about all set on an S1 SR but this is making me consider a 400....will mean saving for a while longer yet....I think I’ve been upsold damn!!!!

[jonnyboy]

Well another bit of an update. I've been without the car for 2 weeks while the various warranty stuff is worked through and Williams are making steady progress. I suspect we will be on 3-4 weeks away with no loan car. 

Unfortunately Lotus have said that they won't  sort out my roof panel which mentioned but not pictured in my earlier posts has two defects in the carbon weave. Not insignificant ones I may add. In direct sunlight you see these two things every time you get into the car. I have emailed Neil at Lotus and was given a total brush off which is surprising as I have heard he was about the only person in the factory that helps people with anything. 

So at the moment with great sadness I am taking steps to reject the car. 

I love the car despite all the stupid faults it was delivered with and have persevered with Williams in the hope that I would just get what I paid £80,000 English pounds for.  I have put extra into it in terms of the sound system and having the ceramic protection etc taking pride in it so it's deeply disappointing that Lotus don't have pride in their own products given that this car is out there representing to other potential customers what their standards are. 

It would appear I got a bit of a Friday afternoon car as unless people on here are keeping it very quiet nobody else appear to have had the number of issues I have. But let my misfortune be a cautionary tale. Just buy a Porsche. If you really really must buy a Lotus for god's sake look over it in very very minute detail before you accept it as you are buggered once you have the keys. 

Yours, absolutely gutted of Wakefield. 

 

[Bruss]

Very sad to Jon. Gutted for you, as well as for Lotus' future.

[jonnyboy]

With an approach like they have had here they simply do not have one in the premium sportscar market. They are unable to do it. 

[pete]

don`t think we have heard the last of this😨

[DJW]

Sometimes I despair at the factory responses

[tim_marra]

Jonnyboy, why not write a letter to the new CEO explaining your issues, the response(S) to date, and your intention to reject the car if it cannot be resolved amicably?

Stick to facts, leave out any emotion, and be polite.....you never know what may result 

[CocoPops]

I’m fairly sure they’re already reading this thread...

[tim_marra]

Perhaps, but some direct communication could get a more positive outcome.

[jonnyboy]

Feel free to give me a reality check but I don't feel like it's an unreasonable request? I think that pic only just captures one of the defects in direct sun it looks really bad.  The tailgate (that was replaced) wasn't as bad as the roof. Obviously the roof is probably quite a big job. Maybe it's not possible to replace the roof skin and they don't want anyone to know? 

Tim might be worth a try but to be honest I'm a busy guy I don't really have time for battles like this. I just wanted it to be right even it meant sacrificing having it for the summer I can get over that.  I don't know what else to say apart from I'm just really disappointed. Want to love the brand. Brand kicks you in the nuts. It's hard. 

 

[PaulCP]

Shame to hear this Jon, I hope you get things settled, one way or another, to your satisfaction

[bosshog]

9 hours ago, jonnyboy said:

Feel free to give me a reality check but I don't feel like it's an unreasonable request? I think that pic only just captures one of the defects in direct sun it looks really bad.  The tailgate (that was replaced) wasn't as bad as the roof. Obviously the roof is probably quite a big job. Maybe it's not possible to replace the roof skin and they don't want anyone to know? 

Tim might be worth a try but to be honest I'm a busy guy I don't really have time for battles like this. I just wanted it to be right even it meant sacrificing having it for the summer I can get over that.  I don't know what else to say apart from I'm just really disappointed. Want to love the brand. Brand kicks you in the nuts. It's hard. 

 

Have you not seem B for Build ? The roof is basically impossible to take off once its bonded on and makes a total mess of the car. I'm not too surprised TBH they are saying no as much as they might want to help. It would basically ruin the car. Sh*t for you though and I do sympathise. I can't actually see whats wrong in that photo mind - is the weave not perfect?

[Stubox]

Sorry to hear this , and though can’t see the defect in the pics once you know it’s there...it’s there. Pity Lotus action is not at least a bit more conciliatory.

[C8RKH]

I absolutely sympathise a lot and if I am honest I have a few "weave issues" on the roof of my  410 but I can live with it.  It does not affect the structural integrity of the car. It does not look bad unless you really scrutinise it - one of those things where if you know it is there you know, if you don't, you'll probably miss it.  However, we are all different and will all accept different things - on a scale of 1-10 re OCD'ness I am probably a 1 so I can live with it. I can see though how it would irritate others.

I will go back to some of my earlier points though re the "fault" or "blame" for this:

Fault 1: The original manufacturer of the panels should never have let them out the door with these issues on them - where was THEIR Quality Control

Fault 2: How did they not get picked up by Lotus QC when the roofs were delivered and inspected prior to be released to the production line?

Fault 3: Final factory inspection - how or why were these passed with these errors obvious?

Fault 4: Pre-handover/pre-delivery inspection from the dealers should have picked this up and the dealers should have resolved this - many of these 410's have been in stock for some time so what is the excuse for not having these fully checked and prep'd prior to selling and release to the end customer?

Fault 1 and 4 are NOT down to Lotus, 2 and 3 are. 

To be clear, when you buy a car (new or old) you are buying it from the Dealer (the Retailer) and not from Lotus so your beef is actually with the Dealer and NOT Lotus and it is the Dealer who has the legal responsibility to put it right (along with the Finance company which is why it is always good to buy a chunk of the car with some finance and then pay it off after a couple of months as you get 100x more consumer protection that way).

The fact that you can get direct access to people at the manufacturer and in many many documented circumstances they have gone the extra mile to support the end customer is impressive. Try that with Porsche and see how far you get! Even getting a call back from the Dealer can be an "event" with them.  Also, to say that Lotus have no place (due to these cosmetic issues - that is what they are, they are not mechanical issues) to play in the premium sports car market is just emotive tosh.  Porsche's may not have the cosmetic issues, but their woes with engines eating themselves and transmissions crumbling are very well documented and for a company that sells +1000 times (yes, +1000 times more!) by the logic being expressed above they should be soundly beaten out of the market for just one error. A sense of realism is needed and an emotion check and balance?  Porsche is not the byword for reliability,.

McLaren sell cars at twice the price of what was paid for the 410 sport (Jonny says he paid £80k) and there are many McLaren owners who will NEVER buy another due to the various issues they have. The MP4-12C (a car personally I would love to own) does not have a particularly great reputation for its electronics/engine reliability nor build quality. So are we saying that McLaren too has no right to play in the premium sports market?  Some Aston Martin models suffered from bad build/issues and Ferrari and Lamborghini have all had their special moments....  This is not JUST a Lotus issue.

To some, my post above will be dismissed as a typical fan boy response. however, to do that misses the point being made which is with all cars you have the chance of issues, regardless of whether you have paid £30, £50, £80, £100, £150 or £200k for it. Shit does happen and things do slip through. it is just that with some brands the level of fanaticalism (or is it just denial) is greater and it does not allow them to talk out aloud about the issues they have faced? However, with Lotus, it almost seems as though it is acceptable just slag them off as being crap. hardly fair.

So, whilst I am truly to sorry to hear of the issues Jonny, i do not accept that the answer is "just to buy a Porsche" (or a Macca, of a Fezza or an AM etc) as they all have well documented stories from SOME owners of misery, issues, woe, failures and issues. I can understand how personally for you Jonny you are gutted and disappointed by the issues with your carbon loveliness.  But let's not just write off the whole brand and the whole cars as a result of issues with 3rd party produced Carbon body panels.  Yes, lotus really needs to up its game with regards to Quality Control. totally agree. But they do seem to listen and do seem to try to respond to customers when they are asked to get involved. As a small manufacturer and retailer I am sure you can appreciate the constraints Lotus, selling 1600 cars a year, is under compared to the mighty Porsche selling +220k cars per year the majority of which are over priced, profit generating, SUV's that subsidise their sports car operation. All I would ask for is some balance when the evaluation between the brands is done. I don't think that is an unfair ask.

[Techyd]

I have to say, well put Andy!  Porsche really do have reliability issues, they trade off the back their German reputation, but look under the hood and they have their issues as everyone else does - I always say, its not the issue that's the problem, its how its dealt with.  I am surprised to hear of Lotus' response on this occasion, perhaps (and I'm not making excuses) there's a lot going on at Lotus as they transition between management and they're ball has dropped in dealing with Jonnys case.  Comparing what I've read and heard from my friends with Porsches Lotus customer care is several steps up.  Porsche still don't officially acknowledge the bore scoring issue (an inherent design flaw as I understand it) with their Caymen engines and any attempt for compensation hits a stone wall. 

I really would implore persistence on this occasion - with both Lotus and the dealer - tricky when you're busy, I appreciate that, but when it matters to you as it does, then it matters.

For what its worth, I'd probably be somewhere around a 7 on Andys OCD scale above!  I test drove a 410 for a day just the other week and I inspected the roof in bright sunlight and didn't spot any issues with it - incredible car BTW!!  It had one annoying thing for me which was a recurring beep and irregular intervals in the cabin, no idea what that was!

[Bibs]

9 minutes ago, Techyd said:

It had one annoying thing for me which was a recurring beep and irregular intervals in the cabin, no idea what that was!

Sat nav speed warning

[jonnyboy]

The beep is hidden away in the stereo options Techyd something to do with one of the speed warnings. 

Andy I take on board your points but I'm not here to sustain Lotus' status as some kind of charity. I invested in the brand and I expect Lotus to take the same pride in their product that I have when I bought it. Bruss has obviously hit the nail on the head it's just too big a job. Maybe if Lotus or the dealer had made some attempt to explain more fully why they aren't doing it my reaction might have been less incredulous but the answer was that it had "passed QC" so it's now just for me to put up with is an appalling response.  If I had bought a Porsche with the same issues I may well have been on a Porsche forum saying I might as well have bought a Lotus. Right on page 1 of this thread I said I wasn't here to do anything other than provide an honest representation. TLF is very blinkered I think that's undeniable. You cay you have problems with the weave in your car. Why is that OK?! That's now an out there fact as with my car that will probably knock money off on resale! If it was a Ford fiesta at 15k I would have had the same response. I can take a bit of a battering from the fanboys Andy it's not unexpected but sitting on issues in the long term will not help Lotus but maybe a mouthy Northern git might make a difference. Tough love if you will. 

I found a slightly clearer pic of the smaller defect it is quite hard to get a picture of but the weave is distorted. If it was on the splitter I probably woudl't be arsed but this area is on the drivers side right where your line of sight is when you get in the car. Believe me when the light catches it it looks awful and a couple of people with no prior prompting have spotted it when admiring the car. 

 

 

 

[Techyd]

2 minutes ago, Bibs said:

Sat nav speed warning

haha yeah I thought that as well, but it did beep below 30 as well.  I started to think it may have been a dealer tracker or something!!

[Simon Bateman]

To be honest all the bleeps were doing my head in.  There are warning bleeps coming from the Nav for just about everything and not just excessive speed.  These seem to happen even if the map if hidden and a route not actually being used.

We tend to use the car on roads we know and I haven't used the Nav for a while, so we found a menu and just turned them all down and it is now fine.

If you do use the Nav and want the voice to instruct you, then unfortunately we couldn't find a way to separate the two, so you would have to put up with them at that point.

 

[C8RKH]

Jonny, I think you are letting the emotions take over here, understandable I know (as acknowledged before), but not fair. I was very clear about the failings not being acceptable and pointed out clearly the four "failure points"  that allowed it to happen and where the responsibility for each lay. I even declared that I had a similar issue on my roof (I never said it was OK, I said I could live with it - a big difference - I have been very clear that the major thing that has pissed me off hugely is the fact that the dealer screwed through my carbon lip at the front, 5 times to put a bloody number plate holder on DESPITE me asking them not to - see picture below of the vandalism inflicted! - so again, not blinkered, not hiding things).

I also did not suggest to sit on the issues - again the long term and future issue resolution is clear - the suppliers need to up their game, Lotus QC needs to up its game and the dealers need to do proper and thorough PDI's BEFORE the cars get to the customer. Get all these four things done and 99% of the issues you have raised will disappear. Again, this is not being blinkered nor throwing the issues under a rug to be ignored.

I get that you are pissed off. I truly do. I agree that @Bruss has hit the real issue on the head - they cannot change the roof - and also agree if they had just been honest about it with you, and come to a compromise (sounds like you are worried about future resale so money) you'd have been happy? But I do expect the Dealer to be dealing with this and keeping you informed and getting the answers etc. That is THEIR job.

My roof is not perfect but it is not bad. I'm hugely pissed off re the front lip. But, in the big scheme of things I love the car. I love owning it. I love driving it. I bought it for the long term, so, I live with it and I do not believe a couple of carbon weave issues below the lacquer will affect the future value of the car at all. But then I have written off the purchase price anyway. That cash is gone. It's dead to me. It's in the past - that is just how I am - I agonised for months re spending the money, but once justified and spent, well, decision made. Job done. It's gone. If I was worried about a return, I'd have kept it in the ISA etc. ISA's for savings, cars for drivings.  Simple life outlook. I'm happy with that. You might not be. But that is OK. i am not judging your stance or mine as the better one at all.

I've got no problem with you being a mouthy Northern Git either. I'm a fat grumpy foul mouthed big Northern Git and am quite happy to snap at stuff and point out the error of ways. However, I also like to think I bring a bit of fairness and balance to it too - pointing out the positives and the negatives rather than just focusing on the negatives - but then I have always been a glass half full type of guy. Life for me is too short to be anything but.

I do hope you get the issues sorted to your ultimate satisfaction. I can assure I really do. Not least because I think as a long term owner and a manufacturer/supplier you will probably build upon your eagerly awaited seat brackets and maybe come out with more useful stuff for the Evora in the future.

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Techyd said:

haha yeah I thought that as well, but it did beep below 30 as well.  I started to think it may have been a dealer tracker or something!!

One of the settings is for audible warnings. if you look at the satnav you can set it up for all sorts of warnings including the signs - so if on, it will beep for:

1. Caution re sharp bends (the triangle with the curve on it)

2. Entering a school zone (the triangle with kids on it)

3. Caution deer (the triangle with the deer on it)

4. Beep when you are exceeding speed limit of the road

5. Beep for speed camera sites

6. etc etc etc etc.....

You can have a play in the settings and switch these things on/off (even if you have satnav voice on) and between visible (shows the sign) and visible and an annoying little shit of a beep! (but you can ajust the volume of the beep too). So, all customisable to personal preferences. IF, you have the time!

 

[Bruss]

roof?

Not me guv

@bosshog.