Alignment settings for X180 NA

[hspeck]

I was looking at my car's alignment and realized they were off.

I looked at the service manual and I am a little confused.

There are 2 sets of parameters for the front alignment in the service notes. "Prior VIN 82 D 3582, 85 D 3887, 82/F-2728" and "From VIN 82 D 3582, 85 D 3587, 82/F-2728, 82/F-5000".

My VIN is SCC085912LHD13680. So I assume it should be read as "85 D 3680", which is "Prior 85 D 3887" but also "From 85 D 3587" ..... so, which parameter should I be following?

Also, what does it means when they indicate " -.02°; +0, -0.5°" for the camber, and "+1.0°; 0.5°, -0" for the castor? 

My local machines for the toe is measured in degrees and minutes, but the specs in the service manual is in millimeters. Can I know if there is a formula to convert the degrees to mm? 

I have not send the car to do the alignment again, but I would like to find out more information so I will not be "smoked" by the alignment shop as it does take time to set the car's alignment and they are charging me quite a sum for it.   

Another point to note, my car is on the Sports 350 Mag wheels, so they are plus 2 sizes to the original, running on 225/45/17 and 285/35/18 tyres.

Thank you. 

 

[Escape]

The workshop manual was typed out from other notes, and does contain a number of typo's. I'd say in this case the '8' in 3887 was probably a poorly written '5'. That way all the numbers are consistent. The changepoint is the introduction of the Eagle chassis, with different settings. Your car has the Eagle chassis, so you should use the second set of settings.

Filip

[fjmuurling]

6 hours ago, hspeck said:

Also, what does it means when they indicate " -.2°; +0, -0.5°" for the camber, and "+1.0°; 0.5°, -0" for the castor

The first number is the value with the second and third one indicating the tolerances.

For example: Camber: -.2°; +0, -0.5° means that the Camber angle should be between -.2° + 0 = -.2° and -.2°  -0.5° = 0.7°. The same applies for the Castor.

 

As for the Toe in:

The indicated value is for the original 15" front wheels. The Toe in (2nd column) numbers are: 0.6mm each side, + 1.8 mm, -0mm. So the Toe in for each side should be between 0.6 + 1.8 = 2.4mm and 0.6 - 0 = 0.6mm.

A little bit of math: ARCSIN (2.4 / (15 * 25.4)) = 0.3609° = 0° 22'.                       ARCSIN (0.6 / (15 * 25.4)) = 0.0902° = 0° 5.4'.

 

The values in the manual are for the original sized wheels, as you are running bigger wheels the values are probably not right. Ask Travis @Vulcan Grey what his settings are as he is also running bigger wheels on his SE.

[hspeck]

2 hours ago, Escape said:

The workshop manual was typed out from other notes, and does contain a number of typo's. I'd say in this case the '8' in 3887 was probably a poorly written '5'. That way all the numbers are consistent. The changepoint is the introduction of the Eagle chassis, with different settings. Your car has the Eagle chassis, so you should use the second set of settings.

Filip

That makes sense.. Thank you very much

[hspeck]

19 minutes ago, fjmuurling said:

The first number is the value with the second and third one indicating the tolerances.

For example: Camber: -.2°; +0, -0.5° means that the Camber angle should be between -.2° + 0 = -.2° and -.2°  -0.5° = 0.7°. The same applies for the Castor.

 

As for the Toe in:

The indicated value is for the original 15" front wheels. The Toe in (2nd column) numbers are: 0.6mm each side, + 1.8 mm, -0mm. So the Toe in for each side should be between 0.6 + 1.8 = 2.4mm and 0.6 - 0 = 0.6mm.

A little bit of math: ARCSIN (2.4 / (15 * 25.4)) = 0.3609° = 0° 22'.                       ARCSIN (0.6 / (15 * 25.4)) = 0.0902° = 0° 5.4'.

 

The values in the manual are for the original sized wheels, as you are running bigger wheels the values are probably not right. Ask Travis @Vulcan Grey what his settings are as he is also running bigger wheels on his SE.

That was very clear explanation. Will keep your formula in mind.

As with regard to the toe in for up size wheels, i read that the toe in in degrees will be the same, but the toe in measurement in mm will be greater for bigger wheels. So by knowing the original toe in measurements in degrees, if we adjust it to that, it should be correct although the toe in measurement in mm will be greater. I hope you understand what i mean..

[fjmuurling]

If you keep the toe in angle (in deg) the same and increase the wheel (rim) size the measurement in mm will be greater.

SIN (0.3609°) * 17 * 25.4 = 2.7mm. etc.

 

[hspeck]

52 minutes ago, fjmuurling said:

If you keep the toe in angle (in deg) the same and increase the wheel (rim) size the measurement in mm will be greater.

SIN (0.3609°) * 17 * 25.4 = 2.7mm. etc.

 

Yes, that's what i read.

Maybe that's why the newer alignment machines uses degrees instead of mm

Thanks!

[hspeck]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 19:02, fjmuurling said:

If you keep the toe in angle (in deg) the same and increase the wheel (rim) size the measurement in mm will be greater.

SIN (0.3609°) * 17 * 25.4 = 2.7mm. etc.

 

sorry, I relooked at the formula but I can't get 2.7mm.

Can you clarify? thanks.

[Escape]

When you calculate the SIN, make sure your calculator is set to degrees, not radials.

[fjmuurling]

Like Filip said Calculator set to degrees.

[hspeck]

Thanks guys.

Was never good in maths and still is ...  hahha

[hspeck]

I send my car to check the alignment, and this was the readings i got.

The front castor is way out, and so is the rear camber and toe.

What are the effects of the current readings? Is it safe to drive at speed?

I was told i needed to be careful when raining.

Thanks.

[Vulcan Grey]

Rear Toe should NOT be negative... That will cause the rear to come around fast.

[hspeck]

7 hours ago, Vulcan Grey said:

Rear Toe should NOT be negative... That will cause the rear to come around fast.

I see... I had the wrong impression that a negative sign indicates a toe in and positive indicates a toe out... I understood the readings wrongly...

Looking at the entire printout my toes and front castor are really screwed up (ignore the specified range as they did not have the specs for a Stevens)...

Need to find someone willing to undertake the alignment job.. Sadly most of the shops i went to deemed it too much work and are unwillingly to take on the job...

Thanks

[hspeck]

Just an update ...

So I send my car to an alignment shop about 2.5 weeks back. Still in progress, as the workshop will only do it as and when they have spare time..

However, we found out that there was more than the misalignment.

The previous shop used the original spring for the AVOs I bought for the front, resulting in high ride height(I have a set of lower springs). And because they compressed the springs too much, there was no rebound, and caused very bad bump steer. Some of the bushes also went out of shape. 

At the rear, for some reason, the stud for the lower link to hub carrier was slightly bend, and the locknut has lose its thread. We are not sure why... They also place some sort of rubber hat on the top of the damper, which went out of shape and resulting in the springs not sitting properly..

So, more work to do before I can fully enjoy the car ...

 

[hspeck]

And so, the suspension and alignment has finally been sorted, and the car corners much better and I am able to push it a little harder than before.

Will need to take it to the track before I can test the limit and how it handles when the rear breaks loose..

Thanks everyone for the advise!

Cheers.