Eagle7

The end of the ICE era... what a ride it's turning out to be.

45 years later, and those are still beautiful cars. I remember seeing one at the Auto Expo in Los Angeles when it came out, and it was so much better looking than just about anything else at the show.

Any pictures, especially of Dark Verdant?

Another reason why the Emira will be my last new car. As is always the case, this really has nothing to do with saving lives, nor will it save the percentages that are being claimed. Those kinds of things are typically claimed to con people into letting them do what this is really about, and what they really (and always) want; control. I just want to be able to get in my car and drive, without constant intrusion and interference from nanny-state control freaks, whose lives are so empty and meaningless, the only way they can fill the void is by inserting themselves into your life whether you want them to or not. And also, isn't it odd that the same side that claims they want to "save lives", also wants to reduce the world population by 2/3? In my book, anyone who has that dichotomy going on in their head is mad as a hatter. The Emira is going to be a wonderful car in many many ways.

How tall are you?

I actually thought it was pretty good. They addressed the few things they felt might need improvement, but overall were quite complimentary. This was a good statement: "Unlike an Elise, which practically crackled with unfiltered analogue feedback, the Emira takes more time and miles to get to know. But once you’ve spent time with it, it’s a really pleasing, engaging and feedback-rich road car: balanced, fast, and involving. With a sweeter gearshift, a less annoying steering wheel and perhaps a fruitier sounding engine, it would be unbeatable." and I thought THIS was VERY interesting: I was fully expecting the Emira would be down around the 16mpg area when being driving in an "excitable" fashion, but if they got 24, and on a long steady speed trip you can possibly get 30, that's impressive!

Every forum has its problem people. When I first put my deposit down on the Emira, I went to LotusTalk expecting there would be all kinds of enthusiasm. I met a solid wall of "we don't like your kind around here" from the good old boy group. Continuous downplaying of the Emira or any excitement or enthusiasm about it. They pretty much succeeded in driving everybody away. My next stop was here at this one, which I still frequent, although I don't say all that much. By and large the membership here are much more polite and civil, which I like. At the time I was eagerly looking for anything and everything about the Emira, and wound up over on the EmiraForum. That's where pretty much most of the people either getting, or interested in getting an Emira seem to have wound up. There wasn't much of the good old boy syndrome over there, so it was much easier to talk, ask questions, make comments, etc. about the Emira without being belittled, or spoken to as though you're being easily mislead by the con artists at Lotus blah blah, and you don't know Lotus like we know Lotus, so don't get excited about the Emira, etc. That's not to say there wasn't some of that, there certainly was and still is from a very small number of people, but most just ignore them now I think. The bulk of my participation is over there, mostly due to the ability to post the 3D images I was creating last year for people when the Lotus configurator wasn't really very useful (which they greatly improved), and I kept trying to balance out the negativity from the few aggressive types who constantly have to say something negative over every little thing, comment, picture (it looks like the front was in an accident "lol", etc.), and that sort of elementary school bully behavior. And of course, I was branded a fanboy, "How much is Lotus paying you?" etc., simply because i was trying to see both sides of an issue, or wanting to give praise to the efforts the people at Lotus were making through all the issues that have plagued everyone the last year. I felt it was very unfair to constantly speak negatively of them, and wanted to show any of them that might have been reading the forum, that not everyone felt that way. I was and still am in favor of them triumphing over the issues they've been struggling with, and want to cheer them on. I got severely blasted by a few for doing that. This was in the EmiraForum no less. Nevertheless, the mods there have done a decent job of getting the majority of that under control, and the forum over there is pretty good now. Just as I appreciate the unseen and unappreciated work the people at Lotus do, I feel the same way about forum moderators who wind up having to be baby sitters in some cases, just to keep things from getting out of control or becoming unpleasant. That's the world we live in now. The negative types always seem to be the most aggressive, and if not dealt with accordingly by someone who can, they'll ruin a forum. They'll constantly attack those who are participating, because they're not happy unless they have a victim (classic bully behavior), so either those participating fight back, or just get tired of it and go elsewhere. The greater majority who you usually don't hear from, won't say anything because they don't want to get attacked, and they too will go somewhere else if the aggressors have succeeded in dominating the forum. Kudos to you and any other mods for caring, putting in the time to watch over and manage things here, and doing it in a way that makes this forum a decent place to visit and be in.

So what do you think; Positive? In the middle undecided? Or disappointed? I think his verdict will be positive. I expect he'll talk about the fun of it rather than numbers and what it doesn't have.

Based on the reviews, it seems that instead of tuning for the top end, Lotus has tuned the Emira for low to midrange performance, which is what you want on the street and a smart move on the part of Lotus. They've said they remove the gears in the manual box and make their own gears, so it sounds like they've geared it more for low and midrange as well. This is in contrast to Porsche which (and this is a complaint I've seen) has gone with tall gearing, and you have to be above 4,500-5,000 rpm to really feel the performance. Lotus has chosen to end their ICE era with a car that appeals to a much wider customer base than their old one, which under the circumstances is a good move business-wise. The order book confirms this was/is the right move for them. It's going to be interesting to see how this new-found awareness and knowledge carries over to their electric future.

That's what I would do. I know that will be difficult for some early orders if their car isn't being delivered, but others who ordered later are getting their cars. Under the circumstances though, it would make sense as a business decision.

I wonder, if they have everything they need for later order builds, will they go ahead and build them, and put the earlier orders they can't build on hold until they can get the parts? For example, let's say they have early orders (date-wise) for a V6 with an auto, but those transmissions aren't shipping at the moment. They have later orders (date-wise) for V6's with manual trans, and they have a supply of those. Will they build the ones they can build, regardless of when they were ordered so they can get at least some customer cars produced?

I'm really glad to see this video. It confirms what we've known must have been going on behind the scenes with delays and other frustrations, but it's also extremely good to hear the price we were quoted when we placed our deposits/orders is going to be honored. Now we know for a fact that final production spec has been settled on, and customer cars are being built. When you think of where they were one year ago with a hand-assembled non-running studio model, and a gray proof-of-concept car that ran, I think it's quite an achievement to have gone through everything they had to go through, to be able to start producing customer cars at this point in time. Hopefully we'll start to see photos and videos of customer cars, and start to see some road tests from Road&Track, Motortrend, Car&Driver, etc. with actual performance numbers. Here's hoping there are no more delays!

Somebody put a green filter or something on it. It's gray. Look at the area below the front where the intakes are, you can see it's Shadow Gray. Also, look at the front wheel where you can see either a green light or filter at work.

Why? If people who drive like that want to buy a Lotus and help keep the company in business so they can make the kinds of cars you and I like to drive, I say bring 'em on.

Well I think there's an important difference between a sports car buyer, and what's called a "real enthusiast". A sports car buyer isn't necessarily a track car buyer. They want the looks, performance and fun of a sports car, but not at the expense of reasonable comfort and drivability on the street. This includes NVH. They are an enthusiast, just not a track enthusiast. Track enthusiasts consider themselves "real" enthusiasts, which is a bit of a conceit in my opinion. A track enthusiast wants track performance which means certain things like power and handling take priority over everything else. They're okay with minimalist comforts and NVH because they want to blast around on a track. Track enthusiasts are a very small segment of the market. Sports car enthusiasts are a much bigger segment, and that's where Lotus needs to be aiming at like they are with the Emira. The orders for the Emira show the wisdom of that approach as a business decision.

You're upset because you see what you want to see so you can be upset. Nowhere am I saying previous Lotus cars or principles were "shite" as you say. And you haven't ripped anything out of me, you vastly over-estimate your importance and abilities. Colin Chapman himself couldn't make his automobile company profitable. He himself recognized that he needed to change from the Elite, Elan, Europa and upgrade his cars to be more than just minimalist track cars that were street legal. The Elan was a terrific little car, albeit with some issues which owners were willing to deal with because they loved the car otherwise. The Esprit was a beautiful car. After he passed away, the company struggled and continued to. The Elise was a beautiful little car, but the problem is with all those small, light cars is they were not mass market cars. They were specialty cars for a special but very small segment of the customer base, and unfortunately that base isn't profitable enough to stay in business, management issues or not. Statements some make like: "I've had my Lotus (whatever) for the past 15 years and I love it" is fantastic as a statement about the car, but terrible for business. In order to stay in business, you need more than your customer buying one car every 15 years. You need a continuous stream of buyers every year, and enough of them to stay in business. The old cars, as nice as they were for the specialty segment that loved them, just weren't enough. Yes of course Geely did not buy Lotus for the cars, that's quite obvious, and why Lotus had to discontinue everything they were making.... because IT WASN'T AND ISN'T PROFITABLE. NOT viable as a philosophy for BUSINESS. There's nothing in that statement that slights the products themselves for what they were; they just weren't marketable enough to be able to work to stay in business. You think it's solely about management, yet the same management of the last 4 years comes out with a new car that IS marketable for the bigger marketplace, and suddenly they have more orders in 12 months than sales for the Evora in the last 12 YEARS. That's the result of recognizing that the very small market segment of people Lotus had struggled to stay in business catering to, needed to be expanded to include more than that segment. That original small segment is now wearing sackcloth and ashes lamenting the change, but it had to be for Lotus to stay in business. Well yeah Geely bought Lotus for the brand and engineering; it certainly wasn't for their highly profitable sales portfolio. My posts are in fact thoughtful and researched, it's just that you are more emotional about this change than you want to admit, and you're seeing things through that lens that you don't realize is coloring your perception of what's being said and why. The Elite was beautiful; didn't sell enough. It had a 6 year run and sold about 1,000 cars total. Then the automotive world really became very aware of Lotus when Jim Clark and Graham Hill were winning races with Colin's cars, built with his design principles and philosophy. They continued to be aware when Collin's F1 cars kept winning F1 championships into the 1970's. The non-automotive world became aware of Lotus because Emma Peel drove an Elan in The Avengers television show; because Patrick McGoohan drove a Lotus 7 in The Prisoner; because it became a James Bond car in The Spy Who Loved Me. People knew about Lotus. The Elan was produced for 12 years, and sold about 11,000 cars in total. 60 years later at the end of its run, the Evora sells about 6,000 cars total after a 12 year run. Meanwhile GM, Ford, etc. were outselling Lotus hundreds of thousands to one each year because they understood where the money was. It wasn't because of any defects in Chapman's engineering or design principles. It was because those principles by themselves as a strict philosophy don't produce a car that appeals to the mass market, where the money is. It's all now water under the bridge. The old era is coming to an end, along with the times where you could make a car that weighs less than a ton and legally sell it. The Emira is a great move on the part of Lotus, because it shows they've adjusted and are now able to reach enough of the market segment where the money is, to stay in business. I recognize and applaud them for that. And on that note, I'm done with this conversation.

Well what if those principles that made Lotus cars special were responsible for the company going out of business? Then what? The 'masses' want something other than what you value, so that automatically makes them wrong? And while you can defend your viewpoint, if they defend there's it's "brainless hype, unreasonable defensiveness and unfounded assumptions"? Manufacturers aren't making cars heavier and heavier because they love weight, they're doing it because of government regulations requiring them to in order to meet those regulations. Lotus wants to stay in business. Without saying anything negative about the older cars, they weren't selling enough to keep the company in business. The new Emira clearly is superior in that regard, but that doesn't stop you from speaking of it the way you lament others are speaking of the older cars. Stand in the middle so you can see both sides equally, you'll get a better understanding of what's going on and why. Lotus had to make a decision about how to stay in business long enough to get to the electric future, and they came up with the Emira. Judging by the response, they made the right decision. It's real easy for anybody to criticize and pretend things could have been done some other way, but hey; put together your proposal and approach Geely with it. If it makes sense business-wise, they may decide to give you a billion dollars to put it into action. In the meantime, the people who were in that position and had to choose what to do, made their decision. It is what it is. And for the record, I for one am NOT turning on the principles that made Lotus cars special. Whether I like it or not, I have to recognize and acknowledge that those days are gone. Blame the governments for that, not Lotus or the auto industry.

Wow. You honestly can't read what you've posted and not see that you're upset, and you honestly believe your posts are "reasonably balanced". Ok, have a nice day.

With a 2 year backlog already, and 7,000 deposits/orders, you don't consider that a success? Compared to their entire history? So let's say just for your sake, that 30% of those who deposited have in fact withdrawn their deposits. That's 2,100 cars out of 7,000. There's still 4,900 waiting for their cars, and there's still a 2 year backlog, and the i4 hasn't even come out yet, and production cars aren't out in the wild yet! Even with your fall-away number, that's still a resounding success! If "in its current form it is not desirable" then why is there already a 2 year backlog of deposits/orders for it? I know it's not desirable for you, but if you're going to be realistic, there's obviously a LOT of people who have different values and views than you do. I don't know why that's so upsetting to you. That's life. Yes they are quirky cars. Hard to get in and out of, compromises in many areas for the sake of lightness and raw performance. That's great for the minority that like and want that kind of thing, but there aren't enough like that to keep the company in business. I had a 1972 Twincam Europa. Try getting in and out of one of those. And MAYBE in your opinion they were the best driving and handling cars ever. MAYBE in your opinion padding and tech is being bloated. MAYBE in your opinion hard core, more dynamic and focused is better than daily livability. And maybe you're in the very small minority and the vast majority disagree with you. Again, that's life. Sorry that's so upsetting for you. Just remember that the cars you love so much are out there, so you can always still buy a used one. All is not lost.

If the electric future wasn't being forced down our throats whether we like it, want it or not, then things could be quite different. Thinking or saying what Lotus could have done, should have done, etc. just doesn't address the harsh realities facing not only Lotus, but every automotive manufacturer. If the cutoff date for ICE cars was 2040 even, that would allow for plenty of time to plan for more options. Problem is, the cutoff is only 7 1/2 years from now, and considering the development cycle for a new car is usually at least 3-4 years, that basically means one more iteration. None of the major manufacturers are planning on throwing billions into and hurrying to design as many ICE cars as they can right up to the last minute. They're all pretty much done already, with maybe one last car coming out between now and then. All their development money is going into electric already. This leaves those of us who still want a great ICE car with not much of a choice, especially a sports car with a manual. While the Emira is not like a Lotus of old, I honestly think if Chapman were alive today, he'd still approve of it. He was also enough of a realist to understand the necessities of business, and he wanted Lotus to succeed as a business. He'd be pouring his engineering and inventive genius into starting simple and adding lightness to an electric car, and hopefully that's what the team at Lotus is doing. With new materials and 3D printing techniques for creating actual manufacturing capable parts, it would be quite an interesting challenge to figure out how to incorporate batteries, keep the driving characteristics and feel of a Lotus, and add lightness in the process. Then do all that at a price that's competitive in each vehicle's target market segment. The success of the Emira means there's a future for Lotus. Sadly the charming, quirky cars of the old Lotus are gone, but that's true about the entire ICE era, not just Lotus. They chose to survive. I personally think that's a good thing.

And without Geely buying it, it would be over. Actually it pretty much does have to be binary. Regulations and emissions standards cannot be ignored by the manufacturers, and that's what has forced the changes you lament. I wasn't slating the old cars or their owners, just stating the hard reality. Even Colin Chapman couldn't make his automotive business work and be sustainable. At the point where Lotus was at, it wasn't about liking or not liking what needed to be done. It was either do it or die. I'm 70 and believe me, I know what it feels like to not like changes that can't be avoided or stopped. My world is gone. Half my family is gone. My childhood friends are gone. People I worked with and enjoyed many good times with are gone. You have to adjust to changes to survive, that's just the way it is. If you and others want to prefer the Evora, Exige and Elise, that's fine, just don't criticize Lotus for adapting to the changes they had to adapt to in order to survive, otherwise they'd have gone under and there wouldn't be any new cars to talk about. Unless you're a very small specialty car maker, that makes so few cars you aren't required to comply with safety crash regulations, no manufacturer can make cars the way they used to be. It simply isn't legal anymore. The world has changed, and it's about to change again in a big way. This is the end of an era, and such things bring a sense of sadness and a feeling of loss because it's part of the world you grew up in that's coming to an end. It makes you feel dislocated, unconnected. I wish I could tell you of a great way to cope with it but I don't know of one. Getting drunk isn't it, it just makes it worse. Enjoy what you can while you can, and be thankful you got to enjoy it, because it doesn't last. This is why there's such a market for nostalgia. It's hard to let go, and even harder when it's taken from you. I'm not looking forward to the electric future because I know it's going to bring a hideous level of control over our lives that will make these days look so much better than we currently realize, and people think things now are bad. I'm going to enjoy my Emira, be thankful I've got one and could get one, go on many drives and even a few trips. I'll go past lines of cars at charging stations that are going to have to wait hours to get their cars charged so they can continue on, and they'll hate me as I pull into a gas station, fill up in 5 minutes and be on my way. They'll be saving money by not having to buy gas, but I'll be saving time which at age 70 is more important to me than saving a few bucks on gas. I'm sorry you and some others are not happy with the Emira, but it's all we've got at the end of this era, and it's actually pretty nice overall when you look at it. It could be worse; Lotus could have gone out of business and we wouldn't have anything new at all.

Here's something interesting to consider. The type of cars the purists think Lotus should still be producing would put them out of business. Those kinds of cars just weren't selling enough to keep the company afloat. Something had to change or it was over, and there wouldn't be any more anything, including parts, support, etc. Here's the numbers for the 2020 Evora GT as tested by Car&Driver: Two things to note here: this is with the optional carbon fiber pack which reduced weight, and the car still weighed 3112 lbs. (1412 kg), and the price-as-tested which is $131,795 U.S. Same engine and trans as the Emira. We don't have final production car numbers for the Emira yet, but so far we've been told the Emira FE is going to weigh 1458 kg (54kg heavier than the "lightest configuration" which it's assumed is the base i4) which converts to 3214 lbs. The U.S. price for the FE is $93,900. What Lotus has done is in my opinion, an incredible achievement. To create a brand new car with the exception of the motor and trans, that has a stunning body, brand new fully upgraded interior, fit and finish better than any Lotus they've ever made, a better sound system than they've ever had from a company of the pedigree of KEF no less, modern electronics and systems, and bring all that in for $37,895 LESS than the outgoing car is remarkable. The penalty (performance-wise) that is being lamented by some is: Weight of Evora GT = 3112 lbs. Weight of Emira FE = 3214 lbs. - an increase of 102 lbs. The Emira FE is heavier, but since the FE bundle adds 54kg (119 lbs.), the base model is supposed to be 1405 kg or 3097 lbs, which is actually 15 lbs lighter than the Evora GT. 0-60 Evora GT = 4.0 secs 0-60 Emira FE = 4.3 secs (estimated based on pre-production numbers) - .3 seconds slower Price Evora GT = $131,795 (as tested by Car&Driver) Price Emira FE = $93,900 - $37,895 LESS Sales of Evora of all models over its 12 year lifetime from 2009-2021, about 6,000. Orders for Emira within the first 12 months of it's debut before a single production car has been built, about 7,000 and a 2 year waiting list already. More orders in 12 months than the Evora sold in 12 years. When you consider it from a business standpoint, not an emotional standpoint, this is remarkable. Like it or not (from the purist's and a few other's perspective), Lotus is doing exactly what they needed to do, and it's paying off big-time. This is better than going out of business. This means parts and support for previous Lotus models and owners. It means new sports cars, and Lotus as a viable player in the upcoming electric automotive world. Well done Lotus, well done.

Problem with all the great reviews for the Evora was, the general public didn't buy it. They're lined up 2 years deep for the Emira already. What the general public is interested in, and what journos are interested in are quite often two different things. Journos have to get clicks, likes and subscribers; customers have to buy and live with the car. Lotus addressed the things the general public is interested in, not what the journos wanted. The other issue is having pre-production cars that don't even have the final production spec software tune, being put up against in-production, finished competitors. This is most likely, literally, the worst the Emira will look against everything. Even with that, it still doesn't come out as terrible, OMG don't buy it. I thought it actually held it's own fairly well under the circumstances. It's unquestionably the better looking car. Harry's review as a potential customer, was the one that I felt aligned the closest to what the general public will identify with. It's a fun car to be in and drive. The final production car should be very much what the general public will want, irregardless of what journos or the hardcore say. They weren't keeping the company in business; Lotus needs the greater general public customer. I think they've got them with the Emira.

Depends on what the spec is. If it's a U.S. spec, yes any dealer in the U.S. would be able to sell it immediately. If it's a U.K. spec, customers buy from Lotus directly so they would have to find somebody who is either willing to change from their spec and accept this other one, or just wait until somebody orders one like it, or just build it and try and sell it. That's the downside of the factory-direct sales model, the factory becomes the dealer and is now subject to those kinds of issues. Although honestly, right now considering the demand, I don't see them having a problem selling any Emira they can produce.

Once production runs have been completed, and especially if it's an ongoing order, then suppliers will have a small amount of over-runs available for order changes, but right now everything is happening for the first time for Lotus and their entire supply chain. There's always a certain amount ordered extra specifically for things like repairs, maintenance, build issues, etc., but those won't be available until full production is underway. I know everyone is antsy to get their cars, and they want this all to be like other companies who've been doing this for years, but at this particular time, this is a huge first in a lot of ways for Lotus. We're all pioneers along with them right now, so we just have to be patient. We'll be rewarded with great cars at a price they'll probably never be at again.