Brexit

[C8RKH]

[Bibs]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Only this week the BoE revised it's forecast for growth in 17/18 upwards.

Was front page news today in the Telegraph Business. Carney needs to go for sure.

[C8RKH]

Bloody hell @Bibs, the Telegraph. Had you down as a Metro reader!   hahaha

I guess what annoys me, and sporned my rant above, is this unshakeable view that Remainers seem to have that Brexit can only be calamatous. Equivalent to the wrath of the gods being rained down on us.  There seems to be very little capacity within the Remain camp to recognise any good or potential.

FFS, we are going into uncharted territory. We're on a mission into the unknown. We're going to a new Frontier with the opportunity to boldly go where no man, woman or lunatic has gone before. Like the great explorers who proved the world was round. Like Armstrong and Aldrin who conquered the moon. Like my mate Pete who proved you could eat a Phaal curry without Uranus then going into meltdown. We need to have an open mind and the courage to see this through.

Yes, it might be a disaster and we might sail off the end of the world or our fuel tanks might blow on lift off. But also it just might be the opportunity we need to overcome, to strive for, and to deliver, something wonderful.

All this talk about burning down houses and other negativity is not helpng us to move forward. Yes, there are risks. But history teaches us we are at our best as a people. As a country. When the odds are stacked against and the impossible needs to achieved.

The common market has been good. It's been good for us and for Europe. Butthe other bit. The Federal EU State and Parliament. The bloated political beaureacracy of the Parliament, The unelected dictatorship of the commission. Do we really believe that these are total forces for good?

Let's accept the risks of change. Lets unite together to make it work for all. Let's not bicker and fight between us - as that path and the weakening of our negotiating position is what will, more than anything else, deliver the burning house.

[Chillidoggy]

"Bloody hell @Bibs, the Telegraph. Had you down as a Metro reader!   hahaha"

 

I had Bibs down as a Metrosexual until I realised he'd sold his Metro.

[100th_Idiot]

Excellent.

 

Well done beeb for poking a pompous twat in the eye.

 

https://youtu.be/WwsQ_5Wm4oo

[molemot]

It was culled from elsewhere....included to poke the ant's nest a bit. I am surprised at how totally convinced you all are, though; also the way in which you instantly resort to insult and bad language.

[Andyww]

7 minutes ago, molemot said:

I am surprised at how totally convinced you all are, though; also the way in which you instantly resort to insult and bad language.

This.

Using insults is a cop-out and means the argument is being lost. I have posted many somewhat long reasoned explanations of why I voted leave, on Facebook and the Remainers usually seem to quieten down after that. Fact is, many Remainers believe that all Leavers are thick/stupid/racist and its our job to rationally explain why we are not.

We also need to acknowledge there are huge risks. The "growth" figures are largely irrelevant, the fact is the UK economy is a disaster and the "growth" is only happening because of immigration, which is one reason successive governments have encouraged it.

The legal challenge is made, that is done, and no use ranting over it. I believe Mrs May has made a huge mistake in saying that she will appeal and win. She really should let it stand, much as I disagree with the initial aims of the challenge, which surely must be to derail Brexit, the law must be respected.

[100th_Idiot]

I think the appeal is a mistake as well. The supreme court can draft new laws and set legal precedent on which future judgements will be based. Setting a precedent that enables the government to bypass parliament could be very dangerous. They will not do this lightly. The government could lose twice which will make them lok even worse and undermine them.

Better to get the parliamentary thing done and dusted. It will get approved after some grandstanding as although many MPs were in favour of remain a large number of those will be of the opinion that they should respect the referendum result.

Meanwhile some of the ministers reactions to the judgement is appalling. Liz Truss refusing to state that an independent judiciary should be respected. The rabid tabloids savaging them for being gay or and UK. 

An independent judiciary is vital to a functioning democracy. There need to be mechanisms to hold the government to account according to the laws of the land. This whipping up of anti judiciary fervour is dangerous.

[molemot]

I'd been reading this thread and seeing everyone patting each other on the back and telling each other how right they all were. Thought it was time to introduce an opposing point of view, to see what happened. Personally, I think that any referendum that does not have the support of at least half of the total electorate has to be unsafe. Arguments about elections and majorities don't cut it for me...as election results are only temporary, and not the permanently binding decision that this one is. There is no way back, once we're gone. Had the result been 70% to leave and 30% to remain...of the total electorate....I'd be quite happy; in that case, "the people" would truly "have spoken".

But it wasn't.

And basing the entire future of the UK on such a marginal result does seem to me to be parlous.

A friend of mine, a dedicated Brexiteer, replied to the diatribe I posted by saying that they weren't trying to burn the house down, quite the opposite...they wanted to build a new, better house instead. I pointed out that, although that was a praiseworthy idea, what they were proposing was equivalent to "buying off plan"... where the new house doesn't exist, has no planning permission, the price is variable, there's no drainage or other services, the roads haven't been built and there is nobody with any real idea as to what it might end up like.

I have never said all Brexiteers are thick, stupid and racist; I know they aren't and have engaged in some interesting discussions on the subject of the referendum....but I haven't changed my point of view, that such a marginal result should not be allowed to stand. The thing should be fought out until a proper majority exists. "Get over it" does not qualify as a reasoned response. 

[Chillidoggy]

Was he proposing to build a house in Greece?

[Barrykearley]

46 minutes ago, molemot said:

I'd been reading this thread and seeing everyone patting each other on the back and telling each other how right they all were. Thought it was time to introduce an opposing point of view, to see what happened. Personally, I think that any referendum that does not have the support of at least half of the total electorate has to be unsafe. Arguments about elections and majorities don't cut it for me...as election results are only temporary, and not the permanently binding decision that this one is. There is no way back, once we're gone. Had the result been 70% to leave and 30% to remain...of the total electorate....I'd be quite happy; in that case, "the people" would truly "have spoken".

But it wasn't.

In that case - I would argue for independence for areas which voted on that basis then 

the reality is more stark frankly. In the high remain areas - you will see a much higher proportion of residents who are actually foriegn migrant workers from other parts - less than 20 years or so resident. When you look deeper and consider areas where the migration came after the war - they are even more against free movement and that's been widely reported in the media. This is where the works or mr kalergi come into play - move enough people around the shores and countries - undermine identity and you can have an eu superstate

Mr Cameron made us have a simple question - what I'd like to see is a simple solution and let's get on with it. He should have invoked a50 as he shut the door walking out of downing st

And let's not forget that successive temporary governments have signed us into this mess only after the electorate agreed to free trade.

in the 1970s no one mentioned what a monster this would turn into - again - the works of mr kalergi.

[C8RKH]

5 hours ago, molemot said:

It was culled from elsewhere....included to poke the ant's nest a bit. I am surprised at how totally convinced you all are, though; also the way in which you instantly resort to insult and bad language.

We're not all convinced, have you not read our posts? I think you read and see what you want to read and see.

We Brexiteers know this is a journey into the unknown. We're scared by it. But at the same time we're excited by it. By the opportunities that it might present. Just think about it. When was anything worth having or worth achieving done without some sort of a struggle? Be it a political, academic, or sporting or scientific anything?

Instead of posting anecdotes about houses being burned down and other tidings of woe and destruction and negativity, why don't you put some real thought into convincing us about the value of remaining. Educating us in how things will be better if we remain?  You  know, really add something positive instead of spreading fear? Or is this me, a Brexiteer, instantly resorting to insult and bad language?   Frankly, I'me getting a little tired of the generic broad brush that Remainers keep taring all Brexiteers with as being ignorant, uneducated, racists. It is total noncense.

I see you live in France. Let's see how the debate about Europe develops in France over the next 12 months especially with the elections there.  I have many French friends and work colleagues. To start off with, they thought we Brexiteers were lunatics. However, after many a positive and thought provoking discussion, without the need for bad language and insults from either side, a surprising number of them now see that this indeed could be an ideal opportunity for change as many of them believe the EU conglomerate and corporate entity is corrupt. Self serving and even miss-guided.

I see many Brexiteers passionately post about their rationale and reasons for their stance. I see many stones just being thrown back by Remainers who either are unwilling, or unable, to really join into a sensible debate and truly try to convince and educate, through reasoned argument and passionate displays, their position. Just look at the huffing, puffing, chest projectioning threats coming out of EU politicians, especially the French ones (what are they really scared off, or is it, that at long last they sense the opportunity to kick us out of club they tried so hard, and lied and decieved to keep us out of, when we first wanted to join?), that want to exorcise us of our demons.

Can we please remember that what the electorate signed up in the first place was membership of a common market. A free trading area. We did not, I believe, ever, sign up for membership of a Federalised Superstate ruled by un-elected and un-impeachable Bureaucrats. How did we sleep walk into that?  It's funny, well it makes me laugh, when you calmly listen to all the Reaminers, all they really want is "access to the common market" - that's what they are fearful of losing -not the other bits like the EUCHR, The EU Pariliament, The EU commission, etc etc. I can't for the life of me think why when our trading within the EU as a % of exports has been steadily decling for over 10 years. Our imports have been growing. Yet our exports and trade virtually everywhere else in the world is growing!  Why is the common market so important?

@molemot the way I see it is that you have, and do, poke the bear. And then complain when it wakes us and tries to bite you.  By all means poke away, but don't whinge and cry about the response.

And just to b e very clear. I do not condone, support and will not tolerate the language and abuse that has been aimed at judges and others as a result of the recent court case. I do believe that the complainants are not being fully truthful re their reasons for it, their motivations, etc. But I do not believe the threatening and insulting response has any place in a modern civilised society.

 

4 hours ago, Buddsy said:

I heard the head of the Catholic Church saying there has been an increase in racist targeting and that the feeling in the country is this is ok now since the Brexit vote. I just dont see this myself. He goes on to blame the politicians and media for fear mongering but I would argue his fear mongering is just as bad.

Given the history and track record of the Catholic Church's joyful and enthusiastic support for the displacing, killing and the persecution of people on race and religion grounds I really do think the Head of the Catholic Church should humbly look at the roots, actions and bedrock of the foundations of his church, and its wealth, before he deems it appropriate to throw stones at any one else. Preists and religion should never be mixed with politics. Too many wars have been fought as a result. Too many people killed and persecuted. Too many displaced.

[Chillidoggy]

It might be worth reading this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

 

 

[molemot]

Please reveal the "whinge and cry" bit.....bite back all you like.  Such is discussion....

My main point has always been the miniscule majority that resulted from the referendum, and I find the idea of the entire future of this country being decided by such a small percentage of the electorate to be very worrying.  I would be equally unhappy if the vote had gone the other way, by the same sort of percentage; I really think we need a consensus on this decision. (Oh, by the way, I currently live in Englefield Green....I do move about a lot.)

 

I did vote in the 1975 referendum...took a lot of thought, but I voted to remain on that occasion, and haven't changed my mind since. A quote from the article you cite, attributed to Harold Wilson, after the result...

 

"The verdict has been given by a vote with a bigger majority than has been received by any Government in any general election. Nobody in Britain or the wider world should have any doubt about its meaning. It was a free vote, without constraint, following a free democratic campaign conducted constructively and without rancour. It means that fourteen years of national argument are over. It means that all those who have had reservations about Britain’s commitment should now join wholeheartedly with our partners in Europe, and our friends everywhere to meet the challenge confronting the whole nation."

The same cannot be said about our current position.

[C8RKH]

5 minutes ago, ian29gte said:

It might be worth reading this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum,_1975

 

 

Was not aware of that, my bad. However, the questions was  Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?   That is not what we have now though is it? It has quietly morphed, whilst we have sleepwalked along, into some thing very much darker, more sinister, and above the law of countries!

[C8RKH]

4 minutes ago, molemot said:

Please reveal the "whinge and cry" bit.....bite back all you like.  Such is discussion....

My main point has always been the miniscule majority that resulted from the referendum, and I find the idea of the entire future of this country being decided by such a small percentage of the electorate to be very worrying.  I would be equally unhappy if the vote had gone the other way, by the same sort of percentage; I really think we need a consensus on this decision. (Oh, by the way, I currently live in Englefield Green....I do move about a lot.)

 

I did vote in the 1975 referendum...took a lot of thought, but I voted to remain on that occasion, and haven't changed my mind since.

Sorry - your country flag on here is French and I thought that represented where the member lived. Again my bad.

The small majority is a worry yes. And as you say it would have been a worry either way. We only have to look at Scotland, the county where I live, hence the Union Flag (  ) to see what can happen when a referendum is won, or lost, by a small majority.  The losers in Scotland have reacted just as badly as the remainers in the UK, even though they lost by a greater majority in Scotland too!  What does that say about losers of a referendum?

However, the basic principle is one person, one vote, all who are entitled to vote can vote. So, if you do not use your vote, then as far as I am concerned you cannot then say, "Oh, damn, I should have voted, but I did not vote, so as I don't like the result you need to change it / anull it". The rules of the game are known. A simple majority is all it takes. I would have been mightily annoyed if the Remain camp had won. But actually, I would have accepted it and moved on.

I'm all for a discussion. I just don't think "prodiing" negatively toned anecdotes/stories add anything to one, or to the wider debate. Hence my reaction. But I am not going to fall out with you about it, or send you hate mail or threaten to kill or injure you. We Brexiteers are not all like that!

 

[molemot]

I have one foot either side of the Channel. In the UK for the winter having chemotherapy for the prostate cancer....hoping to be back on my boat in France in the spring. I have taken full advantage of the "free movement" bit....and spent 13 years as an Immigration Officer too.

 

[C8RKH]

Sorry to hear you are ill.  I think free movement is a good thing. That may surprise some people. I just do not agree with the way it is done now.

[Andyww]

Free movement would be absolutely fine if between UK and France, Germany, USA, Australia, Canada etc.

It does not work between UK and Latvia, Romania, Poland etc. Thats not to say that movement should not be permitted but it cant be completely open. That is where the EU fails. It permits free movement between an arbitrary set of countries based loosely on geography. It should be based on economic status otherwise it causes a one-way movement of skills to the detriment of the country the people come from. 

One of many reasons why the original Common Market was fine. The EU in it present form is not.

[molemot]

I refuse to be ILL!! Been up against the prostate cancer for 10 years, now....hoping for another ten more, at least. We shall see!!

The UK is like a shining jewel to the rest of the world, pretty much the "destination of choice"....so we must be doing something right. Or wrong....(!)

[Steve V8]

5 hours ago, molemot said:

 

And basing the entire future of the UK on such a marginal result does seem to me to be parlous.

 

No, but it is democratic, that's what we were promised, a vote to stay or to leave, and we voted to leave.

It's time for the naysayers and doom mongers to shut up and accept that this is what the people want. Surely the remainers can see, there is no future for us in a Europe which won't allow us to make our own decisions for the benefit of our country.

Like many of the people who voted to leave, level headed, practical minded, British people who can clearly see that the UK is on a downward slippery slope, and change is the only option. 

And those who voted to stay, who are they?  possibly the very intelligent, learned people, who in my experience haven't got an ounce of common sense between them, teachers students doctors, they believe everything they read in the paper, without the ability to see through the bullshit, they can't see that Europe wouldn't survive without a mutual deal with the UK, and are scared to take a chance to make that desperately needed change.

And as far as the non voters go (FAO John Douglas) who are they? The people who couldn't give a shit, the people who don't care, and these are normally the brainless people in society, these are the racists, the anti social youth, the drunks and druggies, do you seriously think these people voted, no, and if they had do you think they would have voted to remain, no.

In fairness we don't need to leave the European Union, but our politicians need to grow some bollocks and say NO to Europe,  we will close our borders, we will defy the European Court and deport terrorists, we will make our own decisions about important british matters. If they don't like it stuff them. They can boot us out. Their loss..!

Rant over.

 

[Barrykearley]

Haha @Steve V8 what you don't realise - is just like me a white working class 40 year old English family man - our politicians couldn't give a flying f£ck what we think......

[C8RKH]

Apologies. I have the same outlook on life and do not "do" being ill  I wish you a full recovery, though realise it might take some time.

Freedom of movement is a real issue. For instance, part of the problem is down to the definition and how it is used and miss-used. For instance, when it suits, it is referred to the "freedom, or right to freedom of movement for people from EU state to EU state".  This seems to be the generic term that is rolled out and has little, if no, restrictions.

However, what we often hear, ironically from the EU, and in particular France, Germany and Poland, is that what must be protected is the "freedom or right to freedom of movement for people to work"

I have a problem with the first definition used, as by its very definition it places no restrictions on movement nor the reasons for movement. This has resulted in the creation of a belief that it is OK for people to move from one country to another for improved benefits, whether they be unemployment, housing, child, etc.  I know this is not everyone, before you all start shouting racist etc.  But it does happen, and it does happen quite a bit. I don't pay my taxes to support people who come here as an economic migrant.

I have no problem with the second definition at all. You got a job, come on over. Welcome, You pay your taxes, you get ill, get made unemployed, we support you.

There is a difference, but it is not well explained in general to the public etc.  Basically there is a quid pro quo. Move where you want if you have a job to go to and/or the means to support yourself. But don't move just because you can get a better benefits deal somewhere else.

[Steve V8]

I don't think it's that @Barrykearley the only thing the politicians seem to be interested in are themselves, yes there are a few good ones out there, but the majority haven't got a clue what's going on in the real world. 

[Steve V8]

1 hour ago, molemot said:

I refuse to be ILL!! Been up against the prostate cancer for 10 years, now....hoping for another ten more, at least. We shall see!!

The UK is like a shining jewel to the rest of the world, pretty much the "destination of choice"....so we must be doing something right. Or wrong....(!)

This is part of the problem John. A lot of the European politicians have a deep seated jealousy of the UK. They seem to think, that we think we are better than them, which often causes a problem when a proposal from UK is put forward it's just vetoed in their stupid games of oneupmanship. It's why we need to get out of there. Let Angela and Francois get married and run Europe,  I personally don't want to be a part of that match made in hell.

Sorry to hear about the cancer John, I understand it's manageable these days, so we can look forward to debating with you for many years to come.

Steve