Brexit

[Colin P]

24 minutes ago, Neal H said:

the question was a simple one - do you want to leave, or do you want to remain.

That is part of the problem really. Do you want to leave - yes. Do you want to leave at all costs even if it screws the country for generations - probably not.

I don't really want to get involved in this, because I can see both sides of it. For me personally it comes down to us being an overpopulated country (and for the record I'm just talking numbers here I really don't care what background people have) and I live in one of the most overpopulated parts of it, and being dictated to from Brussels, versus the financial consequences. 

Crashing out without ANYTHING in place is a disaster to which just about anything is preferable and is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face - this is our politicians fault in trying to make the exit in name only and/or failing to organise themselves to work together to best serve the country.

What we need is some time to get some basic agreements in place. The last thing we need is crashing out with nothing in place, closely followed by more uncertainty from an election or a second referendum.

[JG220]

11 hours ago, Steve V8 said:

@JG220 could I ask what you do for a living? And what were your reasons for wanting to remain?

Steve, I run a medium size software & systems integration business.

I’ll try a short answer on Europe:

I believe in Europe, the reasons it came about and what it stands for. It has held us to account in ways which we had seemed unable to (EHS, working directives, the environment more generally, fiscal regulation and so on and so on. The fact we are putting all European directives into British law points to that. I accept we might repeal some of them in future if we seek less alignment with the EU). Fundamentally as a nation we have agreed with the vast majority of the European mission evidenced by our voting rates and the use of our veto. European collaboration can rival the US and the now rapidly emerging superpower of China. Whether that is in space, in military, in IT, in finance,  in the automotive sector and many others. I like working with our European colleagues and I speak 3 languages (well, alright, two fluently and just about get away with the other) joined up working, in the same conditions, without friction helps towards collaboration and success. 

Our most successful delivery teams (back to the job for a moment) are the most diverse, in experience, in thought, in gender, in ethnicity and so on. Diversity breeds performance and so I believe in free movement as an enabler (it can be done outside of Europe too, its just harder) to our prosperity. 

It is imperfect, all good things are. Overly beaurocratic, inefficient, slow to change. I accept all those things. I also think that the good outweighs all the bad by a factor of many. 

Fundamentally i’m embarrassed that when we have some significant issues in our nation to solve, child poverty, knife crime, the higher edu system (and schools more generally at the moment - £10 per student per year for all their kit is a discrace), House of Lords reform, the NHS, our defence spending, our critical national infrastructure we will have wasted not only the money (the £2b above) but the time and  the energy on something which increasingly looks like will be a slightly less good position than we were in before. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by JG220

[Neal H]

All good points, well made. I don't share it, but I do respect it. I believe we can and will achieve all those things while remaining self-governing.

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, Colin P said:

Crashing out without ANYTHING in place is a disaster to which just about anything is preferable and is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face - this is our politicians fault in trying to make the exit in name only and/or failing to organise themselves to work together to best serve the country.

What we need is some time to get some basic agreements in place. The last thing we need is crashing out with nothing in place, closely followed by more uncertainty from an election or a second referendum.

Sorry Colin, I disagree. We don't need time. We have had ample time.  We now need to do what we could have done over two years ago and just leave and then sort the mess out. Instead what we are doing is to create more mess whilst avoiding to sort out the mess we had!

2 years ago we had the chance to say to the EU, here, we are invoking article 50 and we will leave within the 24 month period.  We are willing to work with you on securing a deal, however, unless your waive your insistence that we cannot negotiated in parallel with other trading blocks and countries on trade, to provide the stability our businesses, economy and people need. If you cannot do that then we will leave under WTO terms in 9 months with no negotiations and no financial settlement. You have 1 month to provide us your response.

At this point, we would have been dealing with the EU as equals and we could and should have made clear our position including:

1. All EU citizens that are currently residing in the UK will be allowed to stay. If they have been a resident here for 5 years or more, they will automatically be eligible for UK permanent residency or citizenship with the same rights as any other UK national.  If less than 5 years, then they can still stay, with full entitlement and on their 5th year anniversary they can automatically apply for and get permanent residency or citizenship. Can you please advise your reciprocal agreements for Uk citizens in the EU.

2. Visitors to the UK from the EU will need to pay for access to medical and other services, unless you reciprocate for UK visitors to any country in the EU.

2. We will continue to honour all relevant EU standards for goods and services for all things that we export or provide to the EU so we can trade under WTO rules with no issues around compatibility or standards

3. We will not invoke any tariffs for EU products or goods coming in to the UK, and instead we will use the money set aside for any settlement of a deal with the EU to compensate our businesses for the increased cost to their goods or services in the EU.

4. We will continue to provide financial support to all investment (space, defence, medical, educational) pledges to EU programmes and support in return for the same rights of access as we get now.

5. People in the EU will be able to apply for jobs in the Uk and reside here as temporary citizens for as long as they are employed, we expect the same reciprocal agreement from the EU otherwise it will be withdrawn

 

I think a simple statement along those lines, would have made our intent crystal clear and provide a very clear direction of travel for business, for people and for trade. We would have had a position. Instead, we have had a mess.that has been largely created by the politicians and groups who from the outset have refused to accept the decision of the referendum.

Instead, from day 1 of the result, we had obfuscation, utter disbelief and a position of subservity to the EU taken to not upset them.  Our politicians have made a complete hash of this and if we could, we should hold them in contempt, remove every last one of them and disbar them from holding a public office again for at least 10 years. Wipe the slate clean and start again.

[Andyww]

I also run a business but disagree with James, above regarding Europe. The reasons I have for voting leave are more a matter of principle and are as follows:

The EU changed without anyone in the UK being consulted, from a common market to a progressively federalist body. This was not what was originally promised.

EU membership promotes a massively discriminatory immigration and skills transfer system. Its almost impossible for a small company to employ someone from outside the EU despite having the required skills. I know as I have tried and failed. Whereas anyone from the EU can enter freely regardless of skill or lack of.

The EU is a self-serving organisation which is run in a manner which would not be acceptable domestically. For example expenses are kept secret. This is not acceptable here in the UK so why should we allow it? Why do they move their entire HQ to France and back every month at huge cost?

The EU is geared to big business and corporations and has more than 20,000 corporate lobbyists operating in Brussels. They care not at all for small business. In contrast with the USA which has a policy that every rule they make must be audited for any extra work caused to business. The EU facilitates tax avoidance on a massive scale by failing to prevent free movement of capital. Some of its tax avoidance deals were set up by Juncker who was later rewarded with the presidency. Just Ebay and Paypal alone have avoided paying huge amounts of UK tax by being allowed to invoice in Luxembourg. Apple recently shopped around for tax avoidance, settling on Jersey, all with the permission of the EU and we also lose their VAT revenue. They have also failed to close down the method whereby fake royalties are paid across borders, mainly involving Holland, as used by Starbucks. All of this because the corporations lobby hard to maintain these dodges. Then they have the gall to give the illusion they are anti tax avoidance, which many remainers appear to believe.

The VAT system within the EU is hugely complex and facilitates fraud on a massive scale. The UK has lobbied for years for the system to be changed because we lose out the most, all falls on deaf ears.

I could go on, there is so much wrong. I would be a remainer if there was any evidence we could change any of this behaviour, as we did with MPs expenses, but this simply will never happen.

In my own business I find the USA is a delight to deal with compared to EU countries who seem to be obsessed with paperwork and process rather than innovation and getting things done. Although I have to admit the products we sell are all tariff-free in the USA which does make trade very easy. I am in the process of turning away a big order from Germany as they want us to sign a 5-page agreement, in German, which I will not do.

[JG220]

All good points. I still think that the benefits outweigh those clear issues and downsides. 

The ammemdment selection for tonight is very interesting! 

- 2nd referendum made it through despite 100 MPs agains it

- Preventing May from bringing her deal back again also made it through. 

[Colin P]

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Sorry Colin, I disagree.

I'm both shocked and surprised 

So accepting that the vote was to leave, as such that does need to be actioned. Whether you agree or not we live in a democracy so a vote needs to be carried through. The Leave/Remain argument at this point is, in my view, moot.

This has not been done. I don't particularly disagree with any of your thoughts around how that should have been done. There are undoubtedly other ways that those negotiations could have been done.

However, what has happened is essentially nothing. This arising out of Parliament as a whole trying to avoid implementing the vote. This is detrimental to everyone, both UK and the rest of the EU.

We've missed the opportunity to do it properly in any form and as a result of this political posturing there is still  basic admin to do to agree things that are really immaterial to anyone, but will in themselves cause a whole load of grief for no benefit and should be easily resolved in a short period.

Things like green cards, visas, driving licence extensions etc which really should be just a tick box to agree and equal benefit for all to just mutually accept - but 15 days isn't enough to do this. 

Yes, this should have been done 2 years ago, as should other things, but it wasn't.

2 hours ago, C8RKH said:

I think a simple statement along those lines, would have made our intent crystal clear and provide a very clear direction of travel for business, for people and for trade. We would have had a position. Instead, we have had a mess.that has been largely created by the politicians and groups who from the outset have refused to accept the decision of the referendum.

And that can be served now. "This is what we are doing, we think it would be an idea to try and knock the simple stuff on the head before we leave. If you'll agree a month or two to do this it is probably a sensible thing to do."

 

[JG220]

I can’t remember three days in a row like these in parliament. 

[PaulCP]

Parliament just appears to be voting against doing anything.

Since it’s Comic Relief day tomorrow maybe we should put the remaining cast of Monty Pythons Flying Circus in charge of the process?

[C8RKH]

1 hour ago, JG220 said:

I can’t remember three days in a row like these in parliament. 

That's because we have never had such a bunch of self serving, inward looking, conniving b@stards in the house before!  My thinking is we look at how every constituency voted in Brexit and what their elected member has voted. If they have voted against the will of their constituents (either for remain or leave) then each and every one of them should be hit with a legal charge of misrepresentation of duty in a public office.  We are in this mess BECAUSE the politicians, form all sides, are trying their damndest to NOT implement the will of the people.

[Andyww]

31 minutes ago, PaulCP said:

Parliament just appears to be voting against doing anything.

Since it’s Comic Relief day tomorrow maybe we should put the remaining cast of Monty Pythons Flying Circus in charge of the process?

Yes, this bunch got just as much done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFrdqQZ8FFc 

 

 

[Barrykearley]

Never in our history have so many been stabbed in the back by so few

[PaulCP]

WTF is Corbyn playing at? .

Just shows that his one and only agenda is to secure a GE. He doesn’t give a flying fcuk for anything other than his own personal glory moment. 

MPs earlier rejected an attempt to secure another Brexit referendum by 334 votes to 85.
And they also rejected a cross-party plan, to allow MPs to take control of the Brexit process to hold a series of votes on the next steps, by the narrow margin of two votes.
Following the votes, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn reiterated his support for a further referendum after earlier ordering his MPs not to vote for one.
He said: "Today I reiterate my conviction that a deal can be agreed based on our alternative plan that can command support across the House.
"I also reiterate our support for a People's Vote - not as a political point-scoring exercise but as a realistic option to break the deadlock."

[JG220]

1 hour ago, C8RKH said:

That's because we have never had such a bunch of self serving, inward looking, conniving b@stards in the house before!  My thinking is we look at how every constituency voted in Brexit and what their elected member has voted. If they have voted against the will of their constituents (either for remain or leave) then each and every one of them should be hit with a legal charge of misrepresentation of duty in a public office.  We are in this mess BECAUSE the politicians, form all sides, are trying their damndest to NOT implement the will of the people.

Its about more than Brexit though isn' t it. its now all about their own personal prospects. No one really believes in anything. Bit depressing really . 

[LotusFella]

11 hours ago, JG220 said:

This is just as interpretative as your accusations of my postings. 

$1T of assets have been moved out of London since the Brexit process started (that’s about %10)

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/07/investing/brexit-banks-moving-assets/index.html

On the other hand, Fintech investment is at all time high and that’s brilliant for us.

https://qz.com/1549956/investors-are-shrugging-off-brexit-and-pouring-money-into-uk-fintech-startups/

So it’s probably a bit more mixed that your statement. 

None if this is black and white. I’m very happy to celebrate the successes, but just imagine how much further on we would be if we had not spent £2b on Brexit. 

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/summary-costing-brexit

I wouldn’t underestimate the other European nations either, and certainly wouldn’t couch them in those terms. Germany and France especially. 

The people vote to leave the EU was not about money.  I don’t understand when everyone boils it down to that!

[Barrykearley]

For the greedy and disgraceful it’s all about money.

for the normal hardworking folk - it’s all about principle. The MPs and business have sold out to the greed and money chasing unsustainable constant growth.

come the revolution 

[LotusFella]

19 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

For the greedy and disgraceful it’s all about money.

for the normal hardworking folk - it’s all about principle. The MPs and business have sold out to the greed and money chasing unsustainable constant growth.

come the revolution 

Yes you’ve hit the nail on the head.

I’ve been bleeding on for years saying that the modern capitalist model of constant growth is simply not sustainable in terms of money (that’s why there are recessions) but more importantly for the planet.  Everything is now designed to work for 12 or 24 months then fail and be thrown away rather than repaired. I work in IT and they are the worst.  A computer is out of date in a mater of months.  It’s destroying our planet. 

Actually the real elephant in the room. Is population growth. But every politician dodges/talks about other ways of saving the planet.  There are already too many humans on it now!

 I can sleep at night as both my wife and I have not contributed to the increase, but adopted our beautiful daughter (now 14)!

We need an alien invasion.  

this will

1. Reduce the population dramtically

2.force all of humanity to hamonise against a new enemy instead of fiting between themselves.

Job done!

Just hope my family and I will be part of the survivors!  ...... assuming there is a decent world left to live in.. 

[Colin P]

Completely agree. You only need an economy to support the population and the population is too big. I’ve been saying this all my adult life. 

However I always have to admit that I am also a hypocrite as we have 3 kids. 

This tickled me and is slightly on thread so thought I’d take a picture for this thread. 

 

[LotusFella]

24 minutes ago, Colin P said:

Completely agree. You only need an economy to support the population and the population is too big. I’ve been saying this all my adult life. 

However I always have to admit that I am also a hypocrite as we have 3 kids. 

 

 

It’s ok.  If we were able, we would probably also be hypocrites. Mind you the one costs me a fortune.  Bloody horses😫😫😫😫

 

[C8RKH]

We need a cull followed by stringent population controls. I know it sounds extreme or harsh, but the reality is too many people on the planet.

[PhillC]

6 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

We need a cull followed by stringent population controls. I know it sounds extreme or harsh, but the reality is too many people on the planet.

A cull? FFS Didn't Hitler try that?

[oilmagnet477]

A 'cull' might be extreme and evoke way too many issues around war crimes and historical events but let's face it, when Hitler was in power, I suspect life expectancy didn't extend much into your 60s, never mind 70s and 80s. Whilst I wish no one ill, having a Mrs who works in a Hospital, it is evident that as a society we have become obsessed with keeping people alive for the sake of it because life is 'sacred'.

If someone is old and to all intents and purposes fit and healthy and enjoys a good quality of life then do your best for them but I simply do not understand the policy of keeping people alive at all costs. My MIL spends all day sitting in a chair, is generally bloody miserable, has advanced diabetes, heart problems, limited mobility and the beginnings of dementia yet receives enough meds a day to support a small 3rd World country. Just stop the meds and manage her end of life in a dignified manner.

And before you say it, I'm not being mercenary. We moved her from Lancashire (where she lived alone) to Norfolk over 3 years ago, after her 4th fall and built her a bungalow style building in our Garden. There is little money left except what she receives as a modest pension. Yes, we have gained a building in our garden but we would never have done this had we suddenly found ourselves in receipt of £150k. If she had been in a home (which no one wanted as an outcome) we would likely have spent £85k per annum to pay for her care.

Maybe slightly 'off topic' but over population has many causes and I fear we worry to much about the little things that will ultimately make little difference whilst ignoring the elephant in the room.

There are at least 650 people in Westminster who no one would miss - it would be a great start............

[C8RKH]

Sorry, bad use of a word and no I was not putting forward anything sinister from the past. Apologies if it came over wrong. The point I was clumsily trying to make is that we need to reduce the population on the planet. As people die ( hopefully naturally and at a grand old age) we need to be having less children. So in effect the population is culled or managed lower. We cannot continue to grow our infestation of the planet. 

Of course, the issue there is that older people generally have more care needs and that approach is counter productive as we shift the age democratic to the right, compounding the issue is that people are living longer, so you have more old than young people to look after them. 

Any solution is not going to be easy, but the total answer is not just down to less consumption, we need to accept that the issue is we are a plague that is consuming the planets resources too quickly and unsustainably.

Anything else is in my opinion just trying to sugar coat or deny the real issue. Too many people. Too much consumption.

And I suspect the issue is further compounded as we all want to live long, happy, healthy lives and consume resources for fun and enjoyment. Me included.

@oilmagnet477 i agree with you 100%. Great post in my opinion. I loved how at the start you thought a cull too extreme but finish with, er, a cull. Lol.  On a serious point, we do raise several excellent points re our "sanctity of life" and I do believe we need to have some adult conversations on the points you raise. 

I recently watched a much love Aunts life being decimated by a horrible disease. She was a wonderful lady. Full of life. A friend to everyone and a pillar of the community. By the end she had lost her sparkle, zest, dignity and any means of movement or communication. It was distressing. She was 72.

I have vowed that I will not end up that way. If that is the prognosis I'll be buying a one way ticket to dignatas but I'll be doing it while I can myself, as the issue is if my wife or children helped me then in this country they could be prosecuted. All because of an outdated view on the sanctity of life and a western view of life to be preserved however limited it is and at a huge cost (financial and emotional) 

[Barrykearley]

Big companies and governments - they need more consumers. Hence why the EU absolutely love the mass immigration from Africa. Where else could you get a massive immediate supply of adult consumers 👍

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Here's an interesting statistic. The average age of a human in the UK is 40 years old. The average age of a human in India is only 27 years old,  yet there are 1.3 billion of them and increasing by 1.2% year on year. Our little island won't make much difference to the world's resources.