Brexit

[pete]

And now to win the older vote Cameron says pensions will suffer

[Barrykearley]

Is that the same mr Cameron who's government is considering plundering steel workers pension schemes ???

i wouldn't trust any of them to look after a dead badger.....

[pete]

And they called Robert maxwell a crook and Gordon Brown plundered everybody's private pensions

[Andyww]

Not sure if anyone saw BBC Question Time last night but I thought Steve Hilton and David Davies (who should be Tory leader) absolutely nailed it. They both gave logical clearly-explained reasoning for why we should come out.

 

[ChrisJ]

In The Washington Post

Quote

The E.U. has a flag no one salutes, an anthem no one sings, a president no one can name, a parliament that no one other than its members wants to have more power (which must be subtracted from national legislatures), a capital of coagulated bureaucracies that no one admires or controls, a currency that presupposes what neither does nor should exist (a European central government administering fiscal policy), and rules of fiscal behavior (limits on debt-to-gross domestic product ratios) that few if any members obey and none have been penalized for ignoring.

 

[Barrykearley]

Sums it up just nicely.

that weasel tony Blair was on to this morning trumping about how important it is we stay in......

come on folks - that alone must mean everyone should vote "Leave"

[Andyww]

Blair has probably just given the out campaign a boost.

This is a very good article which surely nobody on the remain side can possibly disagree with:  http://www.adamsmith.org/the-liberal-case-for-leave/

 

[rocket63]

If you're undecided...........

On June 23rd, I am expected to make one of the most important decisions in my life which could affect my children and grandchildren in a way I don’t even understand yet. I am an average guy with a family, a house, and a normal lifestyle. I am sort of Joe average. Some people have asked me recently about how I’m voting, mainly because they don’t know themselves and want another view or opinion. I’ve actually been quite interested in the opportunity to vote in the referendum and I’ve done some research and a lot of thinking and I know how I’m going to vote and why.

I am however, concerned about the broadcasting from our elected government. They also know what they want and why but we, the people, need our government to provide us with a balanced view so we, the people, can make our own mind up. For that to happen, we need to understand all the good points, and all the bad points. At the moment, I can understand why some people are gripped by fear that the world will end if we leave the EU.

But will it?

Well, I see 3 main areas, which I thought about. Political, economic and immigration.

Before I go any further, I have already accepted one thing. Any change will result in good things and not so good things. I can’t think of one example, which has changed, which hasn’t created some benefits and burdens.

Let’s get the easy one’s out of the way….

Political. – As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, I can live without a law that stipulates that cucumbers must not have a bend in excess of 10 degrees. Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

Economic – This is where I see, and accept, that things will be a little worse before they get better. Let’s get one thing clear though. Big business leaders only want one thing. More sales and bigger profits. That’s not wrong, it’s their job, and what shareholders expect. Quite simply, if the companies they’re running don’t make more money every year, they lose their job.

Imagine owning the only supermarket in a town where for the past 10 years, more and more people have come to live there and for the next 10 years, more and more people will arrive. If you owned that supermarket, you’d be rubbing your hands together. Now imagine that someone said that no more houses could be built and some people had to leave. You wouldn’t want that to happen so would disagree. And that’s what the impact will be, less people spending less money is not good for business. You can’t blame them for voting for Remain, but they’re only concerned about themselves.

I’ve also thought about the impact on house prices and rent. In 2000, I remember renting a massive house while I was in between house moves. The rent was £750 per month. Since the bulk addition of several European counties in 2004, rents have consistently increased beyond the rate of inflation. This is easy to understand, more people, not the equal number of more house increases competition for housing and increased rents. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so people start to buy houses to rent out. Competition for houses increases which increases house prices.

And we all think this is great that the house some of us bought in the 90’s is now worth 3 times what we bought it for, we’re rich! But then I think of my children who can’t afford to buy a house now and I sometimes wonder whether they ever will. I was chatting to a guy at work last week who at the age of 32 had bought his first modest house with a 30 year mortgage. He was so pleased. But that doesn’t sit with me right. I bought my house (3 bed semi) when I was 22 with a 5% deposit and 3.5 times my salary. If the average salary is £22k, £77k doesn’t buy you anything now.

It might be an unpopular thought, but I want house prices to come down so my children can buy a 3 bed semi with a 5% deposit for 3.5 times their salary. And house prices will only come down if there is less competition and more houses built. I’m afraid you can’t achieve that by staying in the EU with an unlimited amount of potential people able to live and work here.

Also, on an economic front, there are too many people telling us that our economy will fall dramatically as we’ll have to negotiate new trade agreements with all the current EU countries. And let’s not forget Obama telling us all that we’ll be at the back of the queue with a trade deal with the USA.

Firstly, we’re a bigger importer than exporter, it’s always been that way. We buy more than we sell so therefore our buying power is more important than our selling power. For sure, some UK goods might be less attractive if import taxes are imposed on them from the EU if we leave but our customer is the world.

We have some of the most prestigious brands in the world. In no particular order, the one’s which come to mind are JCB, Rolls Royce, Burberry, Hotpoint, HSBC, Barclays, Tesco etc etc. I think we can confidently go global. Why do we want the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

And now for immigration. I have no idea why we’re all afraid to even bring up the subject but it does have a big impact and affects us all personally, socially and economically.

Over the past 12 years, since our immigration started to boom, I’ve met a lot of people who have moved to the UK to live and work. In general, I find the people I’ve met to be honest, hard working people with families who intend to make the most of the opportunity of living and working in the UK.

Our service industry is better for it, with many EU migrants choosing to work in many different sectors from coffee shops, to supermarkets. We’ve benefitted from many skills including the main building trades. Many trained nurses and doctors have joined our NHS. No doubt many more have arrived who have filled a skills gap we just don’t have and we, as a society have and are benefitting.

But there’s a problem that comes with this.

As a UK citizen, my personal belief is that the UK is the most attractive country in the EU. If you create a law that says that any citizen can freely choose where in the EU they can live and work, many will naturally choose to move to what they believe will give them the best opportunity to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, it’s completely normal behaviour.

But if that country does not invest in infrastructure and services at the same rate of population growth two things happen. Things go up in price e.g. houses. And services become overstreched e.g. Doctors, schools, hospitals, roads etc.

The other thing I have an issue with is the type of immigration we have. I am absolutely convinced that we need immigration to thrive and prosper. Not just to ensure we have the right skills but also to make our society richer.

OK, so I can have my car hand washed for £3 just about anywhere now but how many unskilled people do we really need? I don’t think we need any. We have around 2 million of them sitting at home most days looking for a job. The broader problem is that we have created a society that believes not working is a choice and if they can’t be an instant celebrity, they refuse to work for minimum wage. We could solve that problem if we really wanted to.

I also see communities within communities. There are street’s I walk down now that I used to walk down 12 years ago where I only ever hear foreign languages being spoken and European shops selling European goods to European people. That doesn’t feel like an integrated society and I don’t really like it.

I want immigration, but I want to attract people from all over the world who have skills we need and who can add value to the place I live and work. I want those people to choose to come here because they like the values we live by, and want to be part of it.

I also don’t like the laws which are imposed on us that says we have to pay all EU immigrants the same social security benefits as UK citizens when we have no control over where that money is spent. At least the 2 million people sitting at home claiming job seekers allowance are spending that money here, benefitting our own economy but I can’t get my head around how a working father from the EU can claim working families tax credits, family allowance, income support and send as much back to his family in his native country as he chooses. When the minimum wage in the UK is 10 times higher than some eastern European countries and benefits are higher, how can we allow that money to be used in another economy where the cost of living is a fraction of the UK?

Imagine being a call handler in a call centre, a pretty average job on £18k to £20k a year. Now imagine another country you could move to, to do the same job for £200k a year. It’s an opportunity not to be missed. You’d live as cheaply as possible and send every spare penny home.

There are many people who are doing just that in the UAE. But the UAE are a growing country who need and want our skills. They’ve already stated to create laws themselves to ensure emirate people are at the front of the queue for jobs and skills. And there’s no hand outs or public services, everything is private sector and when you have no work, it’s goodbye.

I completely understand why Churchill had his vision for a “United States of Europe” after world war two. When created, the common market was brilliant and has served us well over the decades. But nothing lasts forever and things change.

I don’t remember agreeing to or voting for all the things which have been imposed on me. And I certainly don’t like what’s ahead of me either.

So on balance I’m voting to leave the EU. I accept it will have an economic impact. My house may reduce in value, some people may lose their jobs, the £ may fall in value so holidays might cost a bit more.

But if my children can buy a house and pay off a mortgage within their working life, if their children can go to a school that they choose, if I can get an appointment at the doctors or hospital treatment and not sit in hours of traffic every day then I’ll be happy with that.

And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world that attracts the most talented people from all over the world who create the industries and brands that create job opportunities for the future generations, I can look back and feel that I did the right thing.

‪#‎VoteOut‬ ‪#‎Remain‬ ‪#‎Brexit‬

[Barrykearley]

^ superbly put 

 

[Advantage]

What's the turnout going to be? Sure, in some Postal Vote areas it'll be around 120%, but in non-Labour councils how many citizens will cast their votes?

[Barrykearley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36413097

and we really want to be part of this ??? Turkey will be joining the eu in the next couple of years - and we will have no say whatsoever on that. 

 

[Andyww]

But that nice Mr Cameron said that there is no way they will be joining.

Oh hold on, just remembered for the past few years he has been campaigning for them to join and the first step was to sack all the Ford Transit factory workers in Southampton and use our taxes to pay for the plant to be moved to Turkey.

[Barrykearley]

Treaty change after treaty change.... We will have little of no choice - they all lie - and massively. They will look after their own interests ahead of the working man.

its amazing how this monster has morphed over time to what it is now.

will be interesting to see how ukip will fly just like the snp in the event we remain. 

The interesting part is if a democratically elected party is put into office with a manifesto of coming out of the eu - then we can come straight out......I think it's really only a matter of time now.

roll on Greek default, Spanish and Italian bankruptcy and more exposure of corrupt German company practices........

oh - and up the revolution 

[pete]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36412728

now 2 different lots of Albanians have been rescued on boats in the English Channel.Where will they be sent back to or will we grant them asylum?.They have other relatives waiting in Calais to join them and Albania are one of the countries waiting the join the EU so another country whose population can`t wait to come here

[Barrykearley]

We will no doubt take them straight in. Give them a nice house, healthcare, school places for their kids at the local school, taxis for them to get back and forth. A load of money for new household items and chuck them thousands in benefits payments every month.

 

whilst just up the road there will be and Iraq war veteran sleeping on a piece of cardboard in a doorway. We should hang our heads in shame

[Barrykearley]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36357174

are the Germans utterly taking the p&ss here or what !! 

[USAndretti42]

At times this thread looks like the Daily Mail letters page with xenophobic myths being repeated and saying the media which don't agree with your point of view are biased.

i'm a don't know.  The Leave campaign seem to be saying "no problem" to any concern that's raised and are promising to spend our gross comtribution on the NHS and again on reducing tax on fuel while the remain lot aren't selling the idea that being in the EU is a good thing, just not as bad as being out.  Whatever one side says, the other refutes and they both use dubious figures and taken them as fact.

I worry when immigration goes to the top of the list.  I don't believe the recession was caused by immigrants nor the years of government over-spending.  Almost half the immigrants who came last year (nett numbers) were from outside the EU so why should that change if we were to leave?  I don't forsee the big drop in immigration that the Leave campaign promise.  The European Court of Human Rights is not an EU thing so nothing would change there.

However, while we would still have to meet many European regulations, rules and laws to sell merchandise and services there, I do worry apbut the evef-inceasing powers the EU have over us and the lack of control of our own destiny we have which is swinging me to the out vote but I don't find it as compelling as many of you.

[C8RKH]

I think it is obvious much of what is being said is hypothetical and bullshit, equally so from BOTH sides. But then what do you expect from politicians and others who are arguing and trying to win support for their point of view?

We know Cameron is a Eurosceptic. That is a fact. Yet he has to campaign for in as that is what he committed to do when he got his latest (pathetic) deal from the EU. Incidentally I have no trust or faith in the EU honouring that deal if we vote to stay.

We now have Corbyn. An anti EU activist campaigning for us to stay, yet somehow convincing us we should leave. Go figure that one.

For much of its existence the SNP, and Salmond when he was leader, were anti EU and anti Euro. Look how quickly they changed shirts during the Indyref. You cannot trust any of them.

Immigration has generally been good for the UK and I for one am for more of it. HOWEVER, I do not believe in handing out benefits to immigrants who DO NOT work here. So, if you come here, you either have a job lined up, or the means to support yourself. If neither. Bye bye, there is the door.

Asylum is different to immigration, but people who are economic asylum seekers are not the same as those for instance fleeing genocide. The latter we need to help. The former. Bye bye. Go back home and help fix your countries economic problems.  I don't think my views expressed here are Xenophobic, but am happy to be educated.

Frredom to work across the EU is good, and I would be in for that reason. However, freedom of movement for benefits is bad and not good for anyone - our taxes pay the benefits and the home nation loses its younger more mobile citizens further compounding their economic woes. We can be outside the EU and allow EU nationals to migrate here for work, we will never be able to stop benefits roaming. So, overall, for these reasons I am out on immigration grounds.

The EU court of Human Rights is very much a part of the EU problem for me. So here we disagree. I believe that we in the UK have a stable and fair political system, and a politically unbiased and effective judiciary. As such, we do not need the HR act nor interference from Strasbourg. I would strongly argue that we are much better governed than 90% or more of the rest of Europe when it comes to the justice system, fairness, and its ability to resist political interference. So for me, Europe has nothing to offer here. I'm out.

As for trade. It is a fact that the volume of our exports to the EU has been declining for the past 18 years, year on year. Yet our imports from the EU have risen. I would therefore argue that Europe needs us more than we need them, and indeed, the EUs trade balance is worsening as the EUzone economy continues to be a dog. India, Asia, China and indeed Africa all offer better markets, or at least as good, markets for our goods and services here. So on balance, we don't NEED the EU here and we are more important to them as a market for their goods and services. Therefore, I'm an out for trade reasons.

Ever closer political union and tge move to a federal European superstate scares the shit out of me to be honest. No further debate needed, I'm out for that reason.

There are more than 10000 unelected Eurocrats in Brussels and Strasbourg that earn more than our Prime Minister. They even gave themselves a non state federal low tax rate. Moving from Brussels to Strasbourg every months costs us £100m a year. A pointless exercise to placate the French pride. For reasons of governance I am out here.

The Euro is doomed. Even the IMF recognises it is unworkable. We will never accept the Euro. So for currency reasons. I am out.

There are many good things about Europe and Europeans and I like mu cousibs across the channel. We can coexist and trade with them without being a part of the EU. We need to be civil, we need to be fair, we need to be honest. We need to be out. Then we can have a positive relationship with our cousins across the channel.

So, I don't think any of the above was xenophobic or sensationalist or divisive or rude. And just in case anyone was in diubt. I'm for Brexit!

 

[USAndretti42]

I didn't see anything xenophobic in your post, Andy.  It's more the articles in links that people have posted.

What I meant about the European Court of Human Rights is that it's not an EU thing.  It's separate as this link explains.  Leaving the EU won't make us any less subjugated to the rulings of ECHR.

[mdw]

On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 19:10, Barrykearley said:

We will no doubt take them straight in. Give them a nice house, healthcare, school places for their kids at the local school, taxis for them to get back and forth. A load of money for new household items and chuck them thousands in benefits payments every month

An over 16 asylum seeker will be housed in a shared house (3-4) with rent, water, gas and elec paid. They will then have £45 per week to pay for everything else, food clothes etc.  If given asylum or leave to stay until they are 18 they are allowed to work.  If they are refused asylum they get £35 a week until they are removed which would not be until they are at least 17.5 years old. The reason being you cant return a child alone to their home country.  The rules are tighter than they were even a year ago so only Eritreans and Syrians stand a good chance.  So a lot of Egyptians  say they are Syrian  for example but get weeded out in the immigration  interviews.

Under 16 they are put in foster care until they are 18.  If the local authority is full they will go  to an IFA (independent fostering agency) who charge between £800 and £1000 PER WEEK to the local authority. The foster carers are paid £375 per week to look after and provide for them.( same as an indigenous child).  If they look even faintly near 16 they will go for it  and pretend to be 15 on arrival at Dover. Kent has an enormous number of asylum seekers "born" on 1/1/2000 ( we have one and know of 3 others locally).  Once in care they are treated like an indigenous child so when they say " I want my teeth straightened" the carer HAS to take them to an orthodontist or receive a bollocking from the childs social worker . One of ours has upper and lower braces courtesy of you and me and I know of others.  

We foster 2 eritreans.  Some times I am disgusted at myself  for not throwing them out due to their self entitled, arrogant , self absorbed and selfish ways. However that's  teenagers for you.  We are taking these people forward 500 years in the space of a few months.  1 year prior  to arriving here one of ours was walking behind the arse end of a cow dragging a plow of the type we stopped using here probably in the 1300s. We either  send them straight back, or integrate them into our society and our ways.  The ones we look after will speak English, know how to do please and thank you,  and operate in our society.  The 16+ yr old boys in the community speak little English and have no family hierarchy to grow up in just the company of 3 other 16-20 yr olds.  

You have to remember they have been sold a package deal by the people smugglers. Both of ours said they were going  to go to Oxford or  Cambridge and be doctors and their view of the west is twisted by what they have seen on the internet and footballers on tv.   They were quite surprised to see in the land of milk and honey drugged up and  homeless people comatose in doorways in the town centre at 11am. 

At his main interview one of ours was really pissed off that the immigration officer kept asking him why he didn't stay in Italy or France. He said he didn't know he could!!! In the car on the way home  I asked him again and he said "because in France and Italy they don't give  you house and money".  Frankly I am surprised more don't try to get here.  They all have mobiles  and facebook and this info is all going back and forth.  They know their  human rights  before they even set foot in the UK.  Their solicitor paid for by you and me advises them  that they don't have to provide their medical details to immigration if they don't want to.   To put that in perspective apart from check for ebola you have no idea what they are carrying  when they arrive.  

Its not the fostering we went into fostering for but not many people want to foster older teenagers let alone asylum seekers. The previous carers for one of ours had him removed after he invited the husband outside for a fight!!!  I know they are disappointed on a daily basis but  Its our job to spec them up to  a point they can operate in OUR society  to the best of their ability by the time they are 18.  

[Bibs]

IFA's make £400-600 per week profit from this?

Rather you than me Malcolm, I don't think I've the constitution to stomach that kind of entitled behaviour from those who aren't entitled to it. While I appreciate that they are human beings and deserve a shot at life, biting our arms off and then taking a decent chunk of the rest of us just isn't fair.

[mdw]

Its not all profit as they do replace some of the social workers in the LA system.  But its so profitable I read an article a few months back  that some IFA are being bought up by private equity firms  from abroad. 

And trust me they know exactly where they stand and are pulled up every time they take the piss.

Its not all bad and remember indigenous teenagers are selfish little  gits a  lot of the time  but re the asylum seekers  the horse has bolted. They were not stopped at Calais so its too late.   We either change the rules or integrate them in to the way we live.  The other option is they go underground and join the blackmarket.   Only a few weeks back they broke up an exploitation gang in medway both sexual and slavery exploitation. 

Its an interesting journey we take them on ,  for example some  can use a smart phone but  not cutlery.  As a carer we have to remove phones  from under 16s at night time and monitor in day time.  Some get contacted shortly after arrival to be collected by trafficers to start  paying back their journey costs.  Its great fun explaining to a 16 year old that's got themselves thousands and thousands of miles through war zones, viewed drowning, rape and murder on the way that you want their phone over night please!! 

The scary thing is 18 months ago one of ours came in on a lorry with 23 others and wasn't stopped.   12 came out of a lorry a couple of days ago and 18 a week before that.  These are the ones we see reported.  We really have no idea whats coming into the UK especially re the gun  smugglers that got sentenced yesterday. Those are the ones they found.

 

[Bibs]

It's certainly not the country we grew up in anymore, is it! 

[C8RKH]

No it is not. We have gone soft. We have allowed ourselves to be exploited and we allow people from all over, to take the piss and take advantage.

We need to do more, both UK and EU and rest of the world, to encourage people to stay in situ, in the countries of their birth, and we need to work with them and support them to make those countries a better place to live, grow up and work. Mass migration is not the answer and will not fix the problem long term. It just moves it and allows scumbag traffickers and the like an opportunity to get rich quick whilst others die and suffer.

Unfortunately, we (the rest of the world) are all too happy to continue to exploit the mineral and wealth wealth of many of these countries for our own selfish gains, propping up dictators and allowing huge swathes of the UK to be bought up with "bad" money that we are effectively legally laundering, as, it generates wealth in this country for the minority.

The UN has no teeth. The EU does not really give a shit. The US, China and Russia just continue to plunder as is there right as global superpowers (or so they believe). It's normal people, home and abroad, who actually pay the price for all of this.

The world really is at times a shitty place and sometimes I really do believe the human race is a plague, an infestation, that needs to be controlled by something other than, the human race. We are not going to fix the problem by self governing, nature will intervene and take action eventually on our behalf. And, before anyone says otherwise, I mean the HUMAN RACE, not a specific race, religion, colour, creed, economic or other sub group of it! We are all part of the problem. We could be part of the solution, but we do not really have the appetite for it.

[clivef38]

On a lighter note can TLF leave the EU if it's an in vote for the UK.