Brexit

[910Esprit]

On 15/09/2016 at 10:07, basalte said:

I think Socialism is indeed obsolete in the political sense of wanting to control culture and peoples` lives but in its classic sense it was always about empowering people to free themselves from wage-slavery and to give them freedom from ill-health and insecurity in particular. I do not believe that this can be achieved by the private sector.   

I suspect I've spent more time in the last European communist state than most people on here (Belarus).   Although some things are a nightmare, it still has some fantastic qualities that seem to have been lost in the western world - such as the family support structure.  Also, not surprisingly, there is perhaps more of a 'society' feel, as everyone is in the same dodgy boat.        

NB Well cooked cabbage is delicious (its sort of cooked for many hours until it caramelises and takes on a sweet flavour.  Smetana (sour cream) is also a joy (in a myriad of variations).   There is also an endless variation of cheap strong beer (which does not work out too well for certain members of society).  I also enjoy being able to pop into a bakery or whatever and get an ice cold draft beer.    

Corbyn clearly represents many people in this country, so it seems to me his position is entirely legitimate and credible (but unelectable).  Is it not a case of history repeating itself?   Did not the same thing happen in the 80's when the SDP (the gang of four) formed to manage the untenable division within the labour party?   It seems inevitable that needs to happen again. 

    

[basalte]

Interesting post Steve, it`s sad to see how ideas like Socialism and Communism which originally meant real freedom from sweatshops and slums got mixed up with the power-projects of gangsters like Stalin and total psychos like Mao and Pol Pot,  (although others like Che Guevara and Ho Chi Minh seemed much more approachable and  are revered as patriotic heroes in their countries ) . With Corbyn I will have to say that he has been constantly misrepresented in the media.  If you examine his policies they are basically those most similar to those of  Scandinavian countries. I think that the economic system here in particular is now so far to the Right (privatised everything) that anything like we had 50 years ago seems communistic (free school milk ? How dare they ?)  The problems of Labour are down to our completely unfair electoral system (where UKIP got 3 million votes and no new MPs -absurd and I am not a UKIP supporter!). To get power a party  has to accommodate wide variances of view and Corbyn and Brexit has of course stretched that to the limit .

I personally think that most of the "rebel" Labour MPs would be better of in the Lib-Dems. In defecting they would isolate Corbyn in Parliament but would have to lose the Labour tag- but then, as Brexit showed,   Parliament is not where change is happening.   

[Clive59]

More good news for Brexit supporters:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/713287/More-good-Brexit-news-EU-needs-us-much-more-we-need-it-new-report

 

[silverfrost]

Good article Clive,  We all new the UK imported more than it exports, Just glad they have finally started to put it in reports,  If they impose the trading not in our favour to cut of their noses to spite thier face, then i personally think the UK will just start building more stuff in the UK.  I think its a good time for the UK as the EU and the rest of its remaining members are in for a ruff ride in the next few years as the EU collapses.   

The french are getting the Vote to opt out, and its also on the cards with Germany.  like rats from a sinking ship just glad the UK where the first rats 

[Andyww]

Much as I am in favour of Brexit, in the interests of accuracy there has always been a big problem with these figures.

The issue is that our figure is for the UK but their figure is a total for all countries. So if each country acts in its national interest, as they do, then the trade is unbalanced the other way, not in our favour. 

Despite that though, I still believe its the best way forward if we assume for now that we exit the single market and work on that basis. We will be in the same position as all other non-EU countries and any negotiation of tariff-free access would be a bonus.

[Iconic Ride]

[C8RKH]

Lol - you sure got that right!  

Now let's see one of Trump v Clinton?

And in other news, despite the harbingers of doom when Brexit was voted for, the economy is growing. Retail sales are growing. The NHS has not failed. We can still travel to Europe. And the rest of the world, in particular in Africa, Asia and South America has decided that without the UK's market the trade deals the EU is trying to impose on them are pish and not fair, bordering on being exploitative and bullying, and so they are all withdrawing from them and buying first class tickets to London for afternoon tea and cakes. Something to do with the value of their historic commonwealth ties and the more open and adaptable approach of the British to fair trade.

Meanwhile, Hungary and former eastern Bloc countries want all immigrants/refugees to be sent back whence they came. The French Prime Minister has decided that immigrants/refugees in Calais need sorting out and they will have 4 months to apply for asylum or be deported and that immigrants/refugees should not be allowed to "surf" across the EU from country to country picking and choosing their destination of choice for asylum requests.  Belgium police are offering free rides back to France, whether they want the ride or not, for all refugees who turned right rather than left and ended up in Belgium (let's face it, no one ever really wants to go to Belgium so after all they were obviously confused, or lost, anyway). Four or five EU member states have told Sturgeon that over their dead bodies will an Independent Scotland be allowed into Europe. Oh, and increasingly it looks like the French, Belgian, Dutch and possibly Danish governments will look to allow their people a voice on whether they stay.

Finally, in the face of this revolt, the EU Commission is pressing ahead with its goals of creating a new Federal EU army that will clamp down on dissent and threaten all those who wish to leave and have warned Britain that as we have Brexited we have no say in this and should keep our noses out of it.

In other shattering news, after 18 years, Zoe Ball and Norman Cook have announced that they are to have a Brexit of their own. The worlds gone slightly mad. 

So, it's good morning from me. And good morning from him.

[Andyww]

Its quite amusing seeing the EU leaders wondering exactly what to do about Hungary PM Victor Orban, who they see as a very naughty boy.

Its becoming more apparent by the day that they are starting to worry that the game is up. Once Merkel is dumped the EU demise will no doubt accelerate.

[DaveyT]

What's the phrase? :

"Every great movement starts out as a cause, turns into a business, and ends up as a racket"?

pretty much sums up the EU politicians for me.

[Iconic Ride]

[Iconic Ride]

11 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Now let's see one of Trump v Clinton?

[C8RKH]

Lol. Very good. Like those....

[C8RKH]

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/64138/compensation-for-the-brexit-or-well-build-the-all-new-qashqai-elsewhere-nissan-tells-britain

Well Mr. Ghosn, my wife has a top of the line Nissan Qashqai. Guess, what. You've had millions of pounds from the UK government ( that's UK tax payers like me ) to support your Sunderland operations in the form of grants. Well you want to threaten us or demand "compensation" well that's fine by me. But be assured that she will not be buying a new Qashqai next time around, or a Renault, or another Nissan if this is your attitude and behaviour.

There are plenty of other cars out there she can and will buy.  You've lost us for ever!  So long. Bye bye. Switch off the light and lock the door as you leave.

[Barrykearley]

Good man @C8RKH. That's exactly the spirit that will enable us to come through this.

its amazing that mr Corbyn is not telling everyone exactly that - since this must be in line with his real value sets

[basalte]

C8RKH ,I have genuine respect for your decision not to buy Nissan again , I wish more people would shun businesses they dislike for moral reasons and not always looking to the wallet. I never go to Tesco`s personally (as I don`t dig on the geegees in my shepherds pie and resent Tesco`s massive scrounge off the State by paying their staff poverty wages forcing the staff to claim State benefits ). 

Problem is, Mr, Ghosn  has got a business to run, Nissan ain`t the DWP. If business conditions are not favourable they will move elsewhere (rather like James Dyson`s factories relocated  to Malaysia despite his support for Brexit). We are going to see a lot of businesses move elsewhere simply because of the uncertain climate.  If we want a motor industry there usually have to be regional incentives and subsidies these days.

The big backstory is that we are paying the price for getting rid of our own indigenous motor industry and concentrating on services not production for the past 30 years.

-Oh and that Nissan Juke looks like a bloody Rhinoceros, not a bad drive but a tiny boot....   

[Barrykearley]

We have been unable to give subsides to the motor industry since we joined the EU - doesn't seem to have stopped the French or Germans - however we Brits do tend to stick to the rules.

Brexit will bring all sorts of new and as yet unknown opportunities once we loose the shackles of the 1920 German superstate concept that is the EU.

for every business that decides to leave - it's just going to leave a bigger opportunity to others. All this huff and puff is exactly that - hot air. Let's ride the ride and enjoy the bright future we have.

[Andyww]

Companies are still investing:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/07/french-train-firm-unveils-plans-for-20m-plant-in-north-west-england

[C8RKH]

3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

We have been unable to give subsides to the motor industry since we joined the EU - doesn't seem to have stopped the French or Germans - however we Brits do tend to stick to the rules.

Brexit will bring all sorts of new and as yet unknown opportunities once we loose the shackles of the 1920 German superstate concept that is the EU.

for every business that decides to leave - it's just going to leave a bigger opportunity to others. All this huff and puff is exactly that - hot air. Let's ride the ride and enjoy the bright future we have.

Nissan is one of several businesses in the automotive sector to receive conditional offers from the £2.4 billion Regional Growth Fund (RGF), which aims to support projects that will create jobs in areas of England dependent on the public sector and which are supported by private investment.

[Barrykearley]

So what @C8RKH 

that 2.4 billion is just money that's being taken from us anyway, top sliced and given back. We can now choose who we give it to without the top slice loss......

 

win win win

[C8RKH]

Just pointing out that Nissan has had it's fair share of our tax money already and I do not like being "threatened". They've done well out of the UK, they have world calls efficiency levels, and they have many people here who have bought their UK made cars.

Contrast that with Renault, the lardy, state propped up manufacturer with nowhere near the efficiency levels. Let them go elsewhere to Europe. We'll stop buying their cars and they will lose money in Europe from a poorer performing workforce. Just my opinion of course

 

[Barrykearley]

that's the spirit chap - I'm right there with you

[Andyww]

This is pretty much as I predicted earlier and what Germany does the EU follows:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/237320-germany-votes-to-ban-internal-combustion-engine-cars-by-2030

 

[Iconic Ride]

Potential positive side...

[C8RKH]

The UK runs a £60bn trade deficit with the EU, despite single market access, while generating a £30bn surplus when trading with the rest of the world, with no single market. The EU is a declining bloc, its GDP growth having lagged every other region for a generation. The 85pc of the world economy outside the EU is growing far faster, offering Britain all kinds of trading opportunities.

 

Why do we need to pay to trade less with the Common Market? Pay to retain a £60bn trading deficit? Totally bonkers... can some Remain supporters remind me again of the benefits to the UK of European trade?

[Andyww]

The BBC seemed to lose the plot completely earlier this week. They had a report saying that if we are outside the single market our food prices will rise "because of tariffs". I think they had forgotten the difference between imports and exports. Any tariffs on imports will be decided by the UK not by the EU and its highly unlikely the UK government would impose tariffs on food imports.

Also any tariffs which EU countries might impose on our exports have been wiped out by the decline in the pound so no issue there.

James Dyson raised the point in his pro-Brexit article that if a situation developed in which the EU imposed 10% tariffs and we also did the same, we would be £10 billion better off per year owing to the trade imbalance.