Brexit

[Barrykearley]

Says it all really....... 

Bloody kinnock - and I thought ed milliband was a champagne socialist......

come the revolution - they all need stringing up

[Bibs]

The wage pales into insignificance when you look at their expense bills! 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

[Andyww]

Dan, I fail to see why stating all the differences between us and the rest of Europe is an argument for staying in. Its surely the opposite.

Peace is NATO. In fact the EU, in particular the EU foreign minister Baroness Ashton, almost started a war by provoking Putin over Ukraine. That episode was an almost textbook case of how wars start.

The bent bananas thing, unimportant but did the tabloids really make this up? http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:1994R2257:20060217:EN:PDF

I cant understand why anyone would like politicians enough to want a whole other layer of them which ours, who are bad enough on their own, have to answer to.

[Barrykearley]

It's clear the whole European Union is indeed perfection personified. Consider.

Greece, immigrants, unused Spanish airports, massive swathes of youth unemployment, mass Eastern European migration, human rights act abuses, our nhs benign used as a free European health service, corruption at the highest levels, a whole chamber of folks who we have no power to elect,a gravy train from Strasbourg to Brussels. 

Thank god we now have one less rubbish item on a beech and a telephone call on holiday is fractionally cheaper now.  Yeah - thems really good reasons for staying with the status quo.

If it helps - I promise next time I go to the beach I will look for 10 bits of rubbish to personally pick up - and I will leave my mobile at Home next time I am unlucky enough to step foot on mainland Europe.

im voting out - and I hope we have someone whining like sturgeon does about Scottish independence if we don't get set free.

[rocket63]

Its quite interesting how the mantra of leaving Europe is going to be our down fall. There is a distinct possibility that Europe are crapping their pants that the 6th largest economy on this planet wont be part of the federal vision. Funny that. We managed pretty well as a Nation for several hundred years before this common market became a reality. 

The country cant see whats coming either way, whether we stay in Europe or not. What we do have is visibility of the impotence of Europe and the dominant position of Germany in this so called federation. Sound familiar? 

As someone who lives and works in this country, im not bothered about whether my mobile rates are higher abroad or if I have to spend 5 minutes presenting my passport at the borders.

I do care about the financial impact of supporting a Federal state and other countries who cant or wont manage their own affairs and lied and deceived to join the community (Greece)

 

I care about the security of this land and the current infrastructure which I pay for that cannot and should not support economic migration to the detriment of the the Nations citizens.

 

Im not against migration, that works both ways but when affects the overburdened NHS, Education and Welfare systems, then enough is enough.

 

The trouble is, a large proportion of this nations citizens have become idle and take no responsibility to change things but have enough energy to challenge and moan about those who put their head above the parapet either way and at least have a say.

 

I've been paying my dues for  nearly 40 years. That's PAYING. None of it free. Over this time our country has been raped and pillaged. I want to see my taxes invested in this countries future not in Europe's.

 

Out out out.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by rocket63

[JayEmm]

Well, clearly this is a topic which polarises people - so I'm going to say one last bit and then bow out quietly...

As previously mentioned, I don't trust any politician to ever give me unbiased and straight facts. Most people on this website also think (and I agree) that a lot of journalists can't give an unbiased opinion when reviewing a car - so I doubt international politics is any different. In the absence of faith in any "facts", statistics or otherwise - I base my opinion solely on my experiences.

I have not experienced many of the issues that people write about. This is not to say they're wrong, or invalid, but I haven't seen them as a problem.

I've recently had two people close to me become terminally ill and found the NHS to be very effective in both cases. I've not had my village taken over with immigrants (although the bloke next door was from Romford, which might as well be Baghdad as far as locals are concerned), nor has anyone from Brussels turned up and told me my porch can't be painted that colour due to health and safety. And my bananas are bent as a nine bob note.

I enjoy the *perceived* benefits of being in the EU - and I believe that for me, both personally and professionally, being in is advantageous. There are a number of jobs/sales/purchases I have made recently which would have been simply impossible were I dealing with non-EU states. I am always going to vote for what benefits *me*, sod everyone else

I totally agree with many others here in that we genuinely don't know what will happen in either case. No doubt things will change whatever happens.

I did have the luxury of studying politics many moons ago, and my general feeling from having done so was that it tends to be much more popular to blame issues on a "broken system", which we may try and replace with a new one, and wind up spending more money and ending up with all the same problems. This mostly applies to internal issues, but I can see many problems that may be perceived as being EU issues remaining even if we leave.

Additionally, I really quite like Germany and the Germans as it happens. So that'll certainly be influencing my decision. 

So that's my opinion on the subject. I'm now going to slip off to keep looking for more Evora 400 videos

[j2 lot]

I have to say I am not strongly opinionated on the Euro vote like I was on the Scottish Indy vote (No vote then and always), I probably sway towards leaving the EU but don't know enough about it to be sure, but I sure as hell won't be voting based on phone roaming charges!!  Anyone who makes such a decision made on the strength of a (£20?) phone bill a couple of times a year isn't clever enough to be given a vote ...... 

[JayEmm]

12 minutes ago, j2 lot said:

I have to say I am not strongly opinionated on the Euro vote like I was on the Scottish Indy vote (No vote then and always), I probably sway towards leaving the EU but don't know enough about it to be sure, but I sure as hell won't be voting based on phone roaming charges!!  Anyone who makes such a decision made on the strength of a (£20?) phone bill a couple of times a year isn't clever enough to be given a vote ...... 

It was a £900 bill actually. You only ever need one of those

[j2 lot]

You're possibly not clever enough to be given a phone either.............

?

[Andyww]

Great piece from Hitchens as usual in the MoS. He mentions the decision to produce medals in France (now recinded I think owing to protests) in context of the EU:

Of course France would never in a thousand years have considered giving a British firm the contract to make its medals. Quite right, too. 

The reason why we have even discussed awarding such a contract to the French is that we believe, as they do not, in the absolute rule of law – the thing which distinguishes us from all the rest of Europe. 

So when we sign an agreement saying our markets are open, we mean it. And when they sign it, they don’t. The only way we would ever prosper in the EU is if we sank to their standards.

[ChrisJ]

I will be voting out as I don't think we should have joined in the first place - I was given a detention at school (aged 11) prior to the referendum in 1975 for trying to persuade fellow students to vote out!

Isn't one of the main differences between the way things and done in the UK (and other Anglophone countries) and the continental way is that in the UK system everything is allowed unless specifically legislated otherwise, whereas on the continent everything is banned unless specifically legislated to be allowed, hence the reason why the EU sticks it's oar in everywhere with regulations for everything under the sun.

For those people who support the remain side, I'd ask the question if we did not belong to the EU and this was a vote on joining, would you be voting to join?

[Andyww]

12 minutes ago, ChrisJ said:

Isn't one of the main differences between the way things and done in the UK (and other Anglophone countries) and the continental way is that in the UK system everything is allowed unless specifically legislated otherwise, whereas on the continent everything is banned unless specifically legislated to be allowed, hence the reason why the EU sticks it's oar in everywhere with regulations for everything under the sun.

No I dont think that is the case. I think the difference is that in the UK (and USA) the rule of law is absolute, whereas in other European countries laws often seem to be treated as a rough guide only, with adherence optional. The UK "gold plates" much EU legislation and enforces it, which in many cases puts us at a disadvantage. This difference in attitudes extends to corruption. It is far less likely to be stamped upon in other countries. Hence the example of FIFA which took the USA to bring to book. 

The reason the EU sticks its oar in is simply to do with power and control, and justifying their existence.

Fact is, we are much more aligned to the USA in the way the country operates, than any EU country. This extends to business, the Americans just get on with things whereas the EU seems to be obsessed with meaningless paperwork. Only yesterday I had an email from a German company about a product on our website, which costs $20 and they wanted me to put together a "business case" for them to buy it from us. We sell hundreds of these at a time to US customers. I politely declined.

[Barrykearley]

Opting in - to a mess that's collapsing in its own filth??? It just would not happen

i just hope it all unravels and the European  Union as we know it ceases to exist. Would be nice to see the German motoring industry start to decline

[Andyww]

10 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

Opting in - to a mess that's collapsing in its own filth??? It just would not happen

i just hope it all unravels and the European  Union as we know it ceases to exist. Would be nice to see the German motoring industry start to decline

Hope so too. There is no reason why it should be so big. The cars are no better designed. In fact many German cars have basic design flaws.

My wife has just bought a Honda Civic. Whilst being an extremely boring car image-wise, the Swindon-built Japanese/UK designed car is absolutely flawless as a piece of design and engineering and beats the crap out of any WV/Merc/BMW.

I have to say I might be a bit biased though. I have a hatred of the 911 which borders on the obsessive. 

[C8RKH]

Read the earlier link on the Kinnochs. One of the things that struck me was the "secrecy" surrounding pay, packages and expenses for MEPs.

Where is the public accountability in that?

Where is the independent scrutiny?

FIFA behaves that way and it takes the Americans to sort it out, whilst apparently the European and Swiss Authorities turned and looked away.

Ecclestone is accused of Bribery in Germany. But after a multi-million payment to the German Courts the case is settled and no further action. In my non legal opinion is the not the court taking a bribe?

The UK plays by the letter of the EU law, everyone else in Europe takes the piss and finds ways around it. 

Everyone is worried about access to trade. We are one of the largest net importers of European, and especially German manufactured, goods and services in the world. On our own yhe UK is the 6th largest economy, we've displaced France that is in terminal decline and we are catching up to Germany.

British quality, design and the British label make our goods highly desirable and our brands regional leaders across Asia, still one of the fastest growing markets.

We have strong trade ties with India, where British has a strong quality reputation and India has the fastest growing upper middle and upper class in the world, and population wise is set to out grow China.

Are we really saying all of this will disappear because we are no longer a part of the EU?

Anyone who does not think the that Euro politicians end goal is a federal European Super State is quite frankly, in my opinion deluded.

Please don't vote based on stupid things like phone tariffs. We already have to show our passports when travelling to Europe. Nothing will change there.

I work for a global French company. The UK business is the second largest contributor of nett profit and revenues. Do I think my company will pull out? Of course not. They'll beef up their treasury market and make a killing trading pounds versus Euros actually making the UK even more valuable to them.

Vote what you believe is tight for you. But please, do some research and vote on the important things, not the insignificant dross and drivel.

[Barrykearley]

If your too busy to do your research - simply vote out.

mr Blair run a whole campaign for office based on time for a change - and this is no different. We have had decades of this bull with Europe. We are a cash cow to them and we are treated like Cinderella....... 

Out out out

[Kimbers]

I will reiterate why the vote to stay in will win. Simple stupidity of our school system teaching people to pass exams and with no understanding of how the world works or common sense. I reiterate what the 2 young ladies said:

"I won't be able to go to Spain on holiday anymore"

"I will lose my job because we came out" Who works in Next...nothing to do with the EU.

[C8RKH]

You are probably right Kimbers, but the fun is in the debate. I'm increasingly veering towards out, just in case anyone had not noticed.

I think the Euro is going to crash and burn, and Germany will change its stance once Merkel is out. Don't get me wrong, I think Merkel has done an excellent job for Germany and for Europe, however, I think the tide of change is now starting to sweep over her and her time is nearing an end. A new, more centre right German Chancellor will not wish to continue to pay for the southern European states lethargy and lax tax regimes. France is struggling really bad, it will collapse under its expensive socialist policies - already a migration of wealthy French to neighbouring Belgium is underway as the punitive tax regime in France starts to really take hold. Switzerland has said no thanks. And I think some of the Scandinavians are starting to think again.

In 10 years the Eurozone could be the Eastern European states plus Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Spain, Italy and Greece.........  Good luck with that one.

[march]

I agree with Kimbers that the vote to stay will unfortunately win. I don't think it is just stupidity that will do it but also that many individuals are risk averse and short sighted.

At the moment we know what it is like like to be within the EU but no-one really knows what it will be like be outside at this point in history. I have seen or heard very little true objective debate on what it will be like on the outside, there is a lot of scaremongering, misinformation and extreme views (from both sides) drowning out any chance of true debate all of which sticks in peoples minds. As stated I have come to believe that the vast majority of people are very short sighted as well as being both selfish and greedy (human nature I am told), this leads to the view 'what's in it for me now'. Include this approach with peoples stupidity we are unlikely to come out with a solution that is best for the United Kingdom. Very few will be looking at what is potentially best for society and the country over the coming years.

There are articles available showing what the EU has achieved both good and bad but how many people are really going to investigate this in an objective manner?

For example:

The creation of the EU and Common Market had entirely appropriate goals : http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/1945-1959/index_en.htm 

So where has it gone wrong and where has it gone right? This question if answered honestly may help many people (and I include myself) arrive at a more informed decision but finding quality and objective reporting on this subject seems to be quite difficult at the moment.

My view at the moment is that we should leave (as can be seen in previous posts) but is it the correct decision? When I see such things as this the answer seems obvious:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11486817/France-is-Europes-big-problem-warns-Mario-Monti.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192894/Revealed-How-Kinnocks-enjoyed-astonishing-10m-ride-EU-gravy-train.html

and many more along with such matters as the complete and utter failure to handle the migrant crisis, Excessive Regulation, Bloated Bureaucracy, Financial Waste, Empire Building, the Common Agricultural Policy, EU grants being clawed back ruining companies and charities, countries taking the EU rules as 'more of a guideline' to be bent whenever they feel the need... this list goes on...

But the EU must have done some good (It does seem odd however that the Stay camp seems determined to say how bad it will be if we leave rather than promoting the benefits we get from the EU) so in the immortal words of Monty Python - "What have the Romans ever done for us"?. Does anyone know the answer as I am not sure I do. This is a genuine question, does anyone know?

 

[Kimbers]

The Countries who have so much to lose from the EU (those that get billions more than they put in, of which we aren't one) are getting more and more desperate.

Spain has now said it will "Take back" Gibraltar should the UK leave the EU......so they basically want to invade it?!?!?!?!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650355/Brexit-threat-Spain-will-control-Gibralter-soon-as-Britain-leaves-EU

[silverfrost]

I for one will be wanting to opt out of the EU.   It is dead in the water and has been for years,  The one man who is the most concerened is Mr Cameron 

as he wants to stay in because otherwise he will actually have to work for a living instead of just doing everything the EU says.

 

All the goverment does is scare monger, we can still have the trading rights without been in the EU..   The EU let too many poor countries join that should of had no

place in the EU, for gods sake some of these countries are still going round on horses and carts !   And with the likes of the Turkish looking into joining in the future...............    

 It is our only chance to cut the cord and it needs doing now.  We have more to loose staying in and the other states in the EU know it, thats why they want us to remain

 in the EU.  

 The general public are more worried about what we export ?  the fact is we buy more in than we export. ! 

 

 We should be spending our taxes on looking after our old people and building a better future for our children not giving money away to the EU.   

 For those of you who think the EU is good and our goverment helps us,  Just ask yourself this, as we are in the EU, we are all supposed to follow the same

 laws but tell me this why is that in other EU states men retire at 60 !  and yet our age is 67, now 71 and now talk of 78. ?  WTF. 

 How is this fair...................... 

 Will be intresting to see the final vote though 

 

 

 

[C8RKH]

49 minutes ago, Kimbers said:

The Countries who have so much to lose from the EU (those that get billions more than they put in, of which we aren't one) are getting more and more desperate.

Spain has now said it will "Take back" Gibraltar should the UK leave the EU......so they basically want to invade it?!?!?!?!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/650355/Brexit-threat-Spain-will-control-Gibralter-soon-as-Britain-leaves-EU

Well at least Spain is being consistent, they were similarly intransigent / arrogant / and stupid with Scotland during the indyref. I think it is time Cameron grew some and responded with a motion to the EU to start accession talks with Catalonia....   This is all getting rather silly.

[Jacques]

Being a frequent traveler in East europe for the last 23 years, I can just say, that it is not the wish of the general public, to have been joining the ec, it is solely the interest of the political and economical establishment, who thrive on the membership. Before say Romania became member, they had a Little Money and managed, despite their former dictator and his evil wife Elena, sucking every single bit of ressource and life out of the land and the population. After the 89' uprise in which a few thousands were killed with machine guns, they won freedom.  But what happened? All the banks and international Companies infested the country with their sick advertising, products and misbehaviour and misconduct, in reality setting the country under an enormous dept, they cannot pay, while "buying" the natural ressources off the land for petty Money. And I mean petty Money. No Wonder they have changed their view on the West from being very curious and positive, to more like, nah, I whink we want to stay alone and manage ourselves. Don't make the mistake in thinking, that the West incl. britain, is all good. Because in every country is a hoarde of lawmakers, politicians and Companies, who make a collective system of enforcement that deprive the population here in Denmark, the UK, Greece, Romania and all the other countries, of their own land and it possibilities. Being in a cart with a skinny horse in front, or not.

Honestly, In reality we, the population, are dead sick and tired of how the establishment are misusing democracy and economical powers, to thrive only for themselves. UK and all the others. The same happens all over the World, for that matter. Voting out of the ec, makes them dead scared, because it installs a small cavity in their bulletproof system of Laws and abilty of acting behind the scenes, in reality not being responsible to any nation as they are hiding behing a thick velvet of intricate Company Constructions and boards. This Means, that for the first time in a long time, in effect since wwII, the people in power, I mean real power, not someone on election, cannot keep on pressing the lemon insensebly. I seroiusly doubt if in reality it would make any real difference, but still. I don't think one should take the position and say "them and us"; in reality most people amongst the general population in nations, wants the same: a happy long prosperous life. Some with a  religious aspect in front. So be it. But it's a bit odd in my view, to take a Whole nation or even a whole part of European continent captive in saying, that they are running around as stone age people, when in fact we, also in Denmark, have done so and so much to deprive them from their own nation and possibilities, for example during earlier times. Fortunately that's mostly stopped by now. Instead, I think it's more interesting to investigate for example who were bombed by the alied forced during the wwII and what exactly were hit. Like: did some of the big german companies go free? Did some of the scientists deeply involved in the nazi regime go free to other parts of the World? Hmm... I think that a bit of monetary interest went into the equation. A bit of multinational interest as well. A bit of acting behind the curtain.

I cannot retire at age 60. For me, it's 69 and that number is regulated to be higher the younger you are. I fully agree, that some systems are highly unfair, as people are forced to do this and that, in contrast to others who don't have to. Well, I can retire at age 60, but it's fully at my own exppense, not getting a dime till' I'm 69. And by the way, the way the ec and it's member countries are spending Money, there won't be many pence to spend, when I hopefully reach pension. So we have to save up ourselves. Note: 0% interet rate in banks. No public help if you have saved up as much as two.pence, during 50 years or working. But paying 50% in tak off that saving: well, hell yeah! Let's steal the peoples ressources! I pay effectively around 79% in tax in my country. I called them up to say I want out, as any membership in a Club is voluntary, but they refused and told me, that I am a lifetime member. "Sorry sir, you cannot refuse, we have to rip you off".

Instead, I think we as ordinary people should lay the small differences aside (and thanks for that, and not all being straightened out cuecumbers in the name of socalled ec when in fact it is not the european community; well not the population anyway) and should continue to make it visible and clear to the politicians, and thereby their bosses, the multinational Companies and Little intricate society of "brothers", that we are aware of what's going on, and we don't like it. I mean, it's hardly because of a local pesant or university professor living their local life somewhere Deep in Eastern europe or Greece working 10 hours a day till he drops dead at the age of 78, that we have so many problems in Denmark or UK or... There are other reasons behind. The power behind the EC being one of them. Get out, please, you have a Unique chance, and we would take it too, if we could.

Your best friends in europe

Jacques.

[Andyww]

I find it strange that the Labour party is supporting staying in. The EU mantra seems to be the opposite of that preached by the Left in many ways.

Tony Benn had it right about the EU all those years ago. Although I disagreed with him on pretty much everything else his opposition to the EU made sense.

The current Labour party seems to be completely different, they are more entrenched with the establishment than the Tories in some ways. Corbyn seems to think he can reform the EU. Not a chance of course. If we can get no reform when threatening to leave do we really have any chance of reform after deciding to stay in? Once the referendum is over, make no mistake, it will be open season, they can pretty much do what they like with us.

[Jacques]

I agree, Andy.

Jacques.