Formula One

[Chillidoggy]

3 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Yup. But then instead of working 60-70hours a week I'd be working roughly 22 weeks a year, giving me around 34 weeks to splash millions of dollars on champagne, cigars, hookers and fast cars. The rest of course would just be wasted....

(with apologies to Channing Pollock the original author of the quote that was plagiarised from!)

You are James Hunt, and I claim my £10.

[C8RKH]

I'm actually Spartacus

[Chillidoggy]

That will explain the leather skirt, then.

[KAS-118]

I see that a $145m budget cap (excluding drivers salaries) has been agreed for next year https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52723209

The new rules will be delayed until 2022, and major aerodynamic will be restricted.

The article suggests that's Ferrari are aware their car isn't as good as they would have hoped - and that this agreement may mean they will not be competitive again until 2022. 

[pete]

Coulthard suggesting that Aston Martin might be a good fit for Vettel. 

[PAR]

He won’t want to stay at all cost and  with the 2021 car being the 2020 cars, he will have full insight on what each car will be worth which is why he will stay away if he doesn’t get a Mercedes seat. 

[Neal H]

Williams GP team is up for sale if anyone fancies a group buy. They have also announced they have parted company with sponsor Rokit with immediate effect.

In other news, Renault have confirmed they will continue in F1 beyond this season.

[C8RKH]

It's probably not PC to say that since Sir Frank stepped back and Claire took the reigns the wheels have come off?

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

I was inclined to agree with you, but did some research. Clare took over March 2012. In 2011 they finished 9th with 5 points. 2012  8th with 76 points. 2013 9th with 5 points, but then things improved markedly. 2014 3rd with 320 points. 2015 3rd again with 257 points. 2016 5th with 138 points. 2017 5th again with 83 points. By then the rot had set in and last in 2018 and a measly 1 point and last again in 2019. Time for a change certainly, but who wants to buy a back row F1 team in the current climate?

[Neal H]

I think it’s impossible to run a modern F1 team as a going concern. You’ve basically got to be a billionaire who’s prepared to throw large sums of money at it as ‘marketing’ for your other business interests.

who are the other independents?

Red Bull & Alpha Tauri - Marketing for RedBull group so self funding

HAAS - Self funding (until they get fed up and return to Indy car)

Sauber - Ferrari B-team funded by Fiat (Alfa Romeo)

Racing Point/Aston Martin - Billionaire Lawrence Stroll

McLaren - Self funded by their Arab share holders
 

Even with a budget cap of $145m that’s a crazy amount of money to find if you need a sponsor. In 1990 when McLaren won the world championship they spent £20m. In 2018 they spent £237m an increase of over 1000%. In real terms, £20m in 1990 is worth about £40m in 2020.

[Chillidoggy]

Are you sure those teams don’t have any other sponsorship, Neal? I just had a quick look at the Red Bull car and I spotted logos for AT&T, Esso, Citrix, Rauch, and Mobil 1. The Racing Point shows BET, JCB, Claro, Canadalife, Bombardier and infinitium.

Billionaires don’t usually end up being billionaires by spending their own money, rather persuading other to do so, Mateschitz and Stroll included. I’m sure I read somewhere how much money a second a lap costs, and it’s crazy, maybe the cap will address that, but I think it will be extremely difficult for the FIA to police effectively.

[pete]

On 22/05/2020 at 10:11, pete said:

don`t forget Hamilton is out of contract too and his wage demands maybe too much for the mercedes board in this strange time. Also not certain that Toto Wolf is staying at mercedes

Looks like Toto Wolff is stepping down from Mercedes.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-news-toto-wolff-stepping-down-as-team-principal-of-mercedes-f1-reports/

[C8RKH]

53 minutes ago, Chillidoggy said:

Billionaires don’t usually end up being billionaires by spending their own money

As they say, how do you turn a billionaire into a millionaire? Get them to buy an F1 team or a football club!

[Neal H]

They may all have other sponsors,  but I seriously doubt those third party sponsors come anywhere near covering the costs incurred by those teams.

McLaren spent £237m in 2018 to finish second last, imagine how much Red Bull must have spent to regularly challenge Mercedes and Ferrari. Bear in mind that Force India had many of those same sponsors that Racing Point inherited and Force India went bust. 

As for billionaires not being willing to spend their own money, if that’s the case why do so many buy football clubs? In the 15 years that Mr Abramovic has owned Chelsea, they have lost a cumulative £769m. Chelsea have been one of Europe’s most successful clubs through that period with multiple premier league and European titles. We all have hobbies, billionaires like to own football clubs and F1 teams!

[Chillidoggy]

Whilst I’d agree that they may not provide the bulk of the funds for some teams, I don’t think the third party sponsors can be dismissed, as they do contribute millions to the running of the programmes. Even Haas had ten sponsors in 2019, albeit on the least amount of sponsorship income, but it was still there. As I said, the FIA agreed cap may ease the financial pressures on teams, but it remains to be seen whether that has any effect on the grid line-up. Theoretically, if they all spend the same money, they’ll all be equal in terms of performance, but we all know that ain’t gonna happen!

As for billionaires, I can’t help but wonder how much Abromovich wrote off in taxes with his Chelsea ownership? I think it’s a business, not a plaything! I’m sure you’re right, billionaires do want their toys, but if they’re smart, they will do everything possible to reduce the losses they know they’re going to make. The rest of us just keep on paying for our toys and get poorer!

EDIT - I read this morning that despite God knows how many job losses in the main company, Renault have committed to remaining in F1.

[Neal H]

I certainly wouldn’t dismiss those other sponsors, I’m sure they contribute tens of millions of dollars between them, but that’s going to be well short of even the budget cap, so the deficit has to be covered from somewhere.

I think the days are long gone where you could make an independent F1 team cover it’s costs by purely commercial activities. I still find it incredible that in 1990 the world championship was won by a team spending £40m in today’s terms, that’s about one third of even the budget cap. How on earth did F1 get so expensive!?

I have no doubt that the budget cap will be like football’s financial fair play rules - a cat and mouse game between the competitors and the governing body as the competitors find innovative ways to circumvent them.

 

[PAR]

Renault is going to cut 15,000 job. It would be easy to cut the F1 to make t look like savings but this is  the worst time to do it as they would need to give money to give the team away so closing the F1 program now would be even more expensive that keeping it running.

On the Mclaren 1990 budget at just over £20m, this is not fully comparable to current team budgets. Honda was spending at least as much on their engine and other. Tag support for electronics was also « in kind » accounting standards are a bit different now so what your partners gives you for free comes into your budget. Also sponsors like Marlboro used to pay Drivers directly.

Every team is getting substantial TV money to help them running which has changed the baseline a lot as well.

I personally regret that it is not possible to get customer cars anymore, would be fun to see more new drivers getting a chance this way but I assume cars have gone too complicated for someone to have a shot and being efficient with a customer car.

Stroll is quite cautious with his money, he invests it more than he spends it and he always had the plan to make force India a factory team. Not sure that Aston Martin can afford it though.

[Bibs]

Last time I heard, headline sponsorship (eg Lotus with the Enstone team) was £20m a year. Remember the teams get a nice bit of cash from FOM which I assume is almost entirely funded by TV. 

[Neal H]

The prize money fund is certainly huge, but the vast bulk of it goes to those who don’t need it - Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull as the most successful teams. But even those sums don’t cover half their likely budgets.

I’m not sure how it changes next year, but in 2019 Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull all received prize money in excess of the budget cap so they won’t need any sponsors in future!
 

Ferrari - $205m (including $73m for being Ferrari)

Mercedes - $177m

RedBull - $152m

There’s then a huge drop to the others.

I love F1, but as a commercial model it’s broken.

[PAR]

Drivers salary and top engineer are not included in the budget cap so you can expect those to keep going through the roof.

 

Ferrari is like Manchester United, they should make a profit of this and not breakeven so it sounds like the cap will help them there.

Res Bull is putting a lot of their marketing money into the team, with the owner getting older they are most likely revisiting and the budget cap will allow them to be more sustainable.

The aim is to get to an NBA like model where the team are turning profits and worth something meaningful with a chance to catch up from time to time to the top and  then make sure no-one wants to leave.

i won’t be surprised if Williams end up receding American or Chinese money but they probably need to demonstrate that they’ve are not as bad as last year first which may be a big tally.

[pete]

the government is going to relax the quarantine rules for [money] elite sports so silverstone will probably go ahead

[Chillidoggy]

Just shows you money talks, eh?

[pete]

Looks like another boring year,mercedes streets in front

[C8RKH]

Really? I think the race tomorrow could be a real hoot.

In positions 3 - 7 on the grid you've got 4 different manufacturers in 5 places. You've got Verscrasheshappen in 3rd on the mediums to the Mercedes soft tyres so there is a real chance the undercut will make things very exciting. Also, if I recall, pole is not necessarily the best starting position as you got a good tow do you not to the first corner so we could see a three way into that corner with Bottas, Hamilton and Vercrasheshappen all arriving together.

Positions 3 - 8 are all separated in qualifying by only 0.5 seconds.

I'm actually looking forward to watching it and think it could be a cracker. Yes, Mercedes might go up the road to get 1 and 2, but the rest could be well exciting and it's nice to see a welcome return to speed for McLaren.

I suppose on the other hand I could just assume it is going to be boring and go and play in the rain instead

 

[Chillidoggy]

For me, it’ll be yet another Yawnfest, but even worse than usual. Mercs will be 1&2, Max 3, and the usual squabble midfield.

 FIA has stated the Merc steering system is legal. But if it’s legal, why is it banned for next year? Fishy.