The restoration of S1 234G

[Paul Coleman]

8 minutes ago, omegaman said:

1413 looks like the front indicator (1417) holder for a federal car. 

 

Re the fuel sender from SJ, I have the tank still out of the car, I can take some photos and resistance readings if you like. Yes I still have the Veglia dash. 

 

That makes sense as the previous owner sold a Federal car and a UK car together.

Re sender: yes please. Does it have 3 holes in the top like an s1 sender?

1 minute ago, omegaman said:

Surely it works a bit like a Scalextric controller, in which case you can just swap the ground wire and the fuel level wire around. So if it had a sweep of 0 to 300 it would then have a sweep of 300 to 0...assuming you don't ground the fuel tank that is. 

Afraid not, pure resistance has no polarity.

[omegaman]

1 minute ago, Paul Coleman said:

That makes sense as the previous owner sold a Federal car and a UK car together.

Re sender: yes please. Does it have 3 holes in the top like an s1 sender?

Afraid not, pure resistance has no polarity.

I know but the gauge input wire is referenced to ground isn't it? 

The sender has the body of the sender for ground and then a choice of 2 terminals .......one at each end of the resistor track doesn't it?

[Paul Coleman]

It's been 5 years since I saw mine but the two terminals are normally electrically isolated from the case iirc. The resistance between the two terminals is just a resistance and assuming they are isolated it would make no difference which way you connect it up. The tanks are normally grounded through an earth strap to the chassis but that's just for safety.

[drdoom]

18 hours ago, Fridge said:

 This and many other forum platforms have shockingly bad usability issues.

In my experience this forum website functions head and shoulders better than most any hosted elsewhere, whether in pursuit of commercial, government, or recreational interests. Bloody well done! 

[Fridge]

7 minutes ago, drdoom said:

In my experience this forum website functions head and shoulders better than most any hosted elsewhere, whether in pursuit of commercial, government, or recreational interests. Bloody well done! 

As an ex-Usability consultant I find they are often not the most intuitive of platforms. The fact that simple embedding images and video flummoxes individuals is rather telling. As I said above, I still find the latter confusing, and I now run a business providing video content, often for online use! Others have commented on this specifically in the last few months.

17 minutes ago, Paul Coleman said:

It's been 5 years since I saw mine but the two terminals are normally electrically isolated from the case iirc. The resistance between the two terminals is just a resistance and assuming they are isolated it would make no difference which way you connect it up. The tanks are normally grounded through an earth strap to the chassis but that's just for safety.

As far as I remember @Paul Coleman one of the wires is screwed into the fuel tank, which is grounded. However, this could be part of my problem .... I await the outcome of this topic with interest *breaks out the  popcorn*

Edited January 23, 2021 by Fridge

[Paul Coleman]

8 minutes ago, Fridge said:

As far as I remember @Paul Coleman one of the wires is screwed into the fuel tank, which is grounded. However, this could be part of my problem .... I await the outcome of this topic with interest *breaks out the  popcorn*

Ah okay, well either way it's just a variable resistor from the gauge to ground so it won't make a blind bit of difference. The movement of the arm affects the resistance and nothing else. To reverse it you would have to rewire the sender.

[Paul Coleman]

Going through some of the boxes today and tried to put things together if they belonged to something...
https://i.ibb.co/gvqpBN0/100-1411.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fYzw5vh/100-1412.jpg

I managed to find all the bits for the tailgate release and put them back together as a unit (you have to be grateful for small victories!)...
https://i.ibb.co/4Zq699k/100-1419.jpg

I did a stock take of the interior and it's all there apart from the binnacle but I had one already that I have been able to donate...
https://i.ibb.co/gvLR6Mr/100-1452.jpg

The engine is not seized and looks pretty complete although it will no doubt need a full rebuild...
https://i.ibb.co/Th4gqRw/100-1421.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/JrwV8mX/100-1422.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LtHK0Jg/100-1423.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/wSFYH2P/100-1424.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/CBdg9fp/100-1425.jpg

The bodywork has been butchered by some Philistine in a number of ways. It has had the front lower corners cut off to fit an S2 spoiler. It has had Turbo sills on it which have a great big pipe at the back end so two big circles have been hacked out. It's had an 'ear' cut into it on the driver's side (but not on the passenger side) and of course the obligatory 80s sunroof. Down the passenger side somebody has deseamed it along the waistline but not all the way (that'll be fun to try and repair that!). The lower section of the firewall has been hacked out behind the driver's seat and there's a bit of cracking and damage in the rear of the engine bay... 
https://i.ibb.co/xs1FVFm/100-1426.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/8d8jqYv/100-1428.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/TKJ3fM1/100-1444.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/6WqVwJk/100-1445.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/k8KsdK0/100-1446.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/n8svtH4/100-1447.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/d2QSgPd/100-1448.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/txwD872/100-1449.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sVSwyW7/100-1450.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/PgfQmhv/100-1451.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/RHCs0Fr/100-1454.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/kMsP7Wz/100-1456.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WzLNWWZ/100-1457.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/xYXmQNQ/100-1458.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/Pg3hP7H/100-1459.jpg

I have managed to find a pair of ABS rear light surrounds and an ABS number plate surround. I already had a pair of rear lights I can donate...
https://i.ibb.co/vJ5BmyF/100-1429.jpg

I have a boot full of electric string...
https://i.ibb.co/RYp2tK8/100-1433.jpg

All 4 corners have the suspension and brakes (the front brakes are in one of the boxes). It's funny but there always seems to be a brand new set of brake pads whenever you buy a car like this for some reason...
https://i.ibb.co/MRNvRkp/100-1430.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/S6RcG6K/100-1431.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/GFs0w96/100-1437.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/xSX9Nmt/100-1438.jpg

It would have had an upright radiator (long gone and no longer available other than an expensive alloy one) but the twin cooling fans are still there...
https://i.ibb.co/7kFg7Zx/100-1436.jpg

The chassis doesn't look too bad although it's had its fair share of jacking damage at the front as most of them have. So I'll probably cut that section out and weld a new bit in...
https://i.ibb.co/NtWFTfn/100-1440.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HBN4qyj/100-1441.jpg

Both doors are complete and the window mechanism for one of the doors is not fitted but it is present and correct...
https://i.ibb.co/MBZpGJv/100-1442.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/qYJksfp/100-1443.jpg

Unfortunately they both have aftermarket wing mirrors...
https://i.ibb.co/NYBjszv/100-1401.jpg

I need another one of these, so if anybody happens to have one they're willing to sell please let me know...
https://i.ibb.co/KsHfpLV/100-1464.jpg

And finally it's not just any old common or garden S1 I'll have you know. Do you think I should leave these?
https://i.ibb.co/yk7V2tf/100-1427.jpg

So that's my first appraisal of it, not looking too good is it hahaha However, it shall be raped no more!

[Fridge]

Cue: "I'd replace that red hose and timing belt..." comments.

I can see this thread battling @Lotusfab's epic tome. Perhaps @Bibs could arrange some sort of annual award for the highest page count?...

[Paul Coleman]

Okay, as promised here is the spreadsheet which will be used to detail all the costings... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13KeyABpkwt11CuFeXZTxFuqGJ45u7_e5BqilOlExYVM/edit#gid=0

Hope my wife doesn't find this post

We should have a poll as to what colour I do it...

1. Leave it red with a brown marcasite interior as it left the factory

2.White & tartan 

3. Orange & tartan

4. something else - you suggest

Edited January 23, 2021 by Paul Coleman

[Fridge]

3 minutes ago, Paul Coleman said:

Okay, as promised here is the spreadsheet which will be used to detail all the costings... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13KeyABpkwt11CuFeXZTxFuqGJ45u7_e5BqilOlExYVM/edit#gid=0

Hope my wife doesn't find this post

What's it worth?....

[v39]

Orange

[Paul Coleman]

1 hour ago, v39 said:

Orange

I have to say that orange is my favourite colour for the S1 and when I was looking for a car 15 years ago it was orange that was at the top of my wish list but I ended up finding a white/tartan car which was my second choice and at £2,000 I couldn't turn it down. I do have a problem with the idea of changing the colour of a car, I would find it very difficult to do.

[LOTUSMAN33]

Paul

This is going to be a fantastic journey saving possibly one of the biggest S1 projects I’ve seen other than a fire car. It makes mine look pretty simple but with everyone’s help should be a stunner like your white car. 
My vote is red everyday but I have a thing for red S1’s as you know.

The body is certainly more hacked than I thought and we have been talking offline so that’s going to present a few challenges along the way but all fixable.

The chassis looks excellent so that’s a massive bonus and being a matching number car definitely makes the project worth that extra effort.

The parts are out there hiding in peoples garages and come in handy stock so it will all come together in time.

Looking forward to seeing that body come off so a full assessment can be done then the rather costly parts orders can commence.

Good luck

Dave

 

[lotus-62]

Nr 4, something else:   I love blue on an S1, with a nice set of polished wolfrace wheels.  

 

[Paul Coleman]

1 hour ago, lotus-62 said:

Nr 4, something else:   I love blue on an S1, with a nice set of polished wolfrace wheels.  

 

Yes, not many blue ones about. In fact I don't think I've ever seen one in the flesh although @LOTUSMAN33 has an original lagoon blue S1 to restore.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Paul Coleman

[LOTUSMAN33]

Still not sure I’m going blue as never seen one and photos always make it look like quite a dull colour.

Matt Watts blue S2.2 was a really nice shade of blue and I did like.

Lagoon blue just doesn’t quite do it although this could be just poor photographs.

I will get the paint shop to do me a test strip then decide after.

This blue looks better but more a royal blue I think?

I think Red and Marcasite will be the way Paul goes which will look really smart and not many red ones about these days.

Dave  

[lotus-62]

I would love to see a bright blue S1 with an blue tartan interior (does not exsist I know but just the thought of it)

 

[lotus-62]

 I am a sucker for bright blue on a car  like the first series countach, a G-esprit Alpine A110 and don't forget my little banks europa 62

[Dan E]

12 minutes ago, lotus-62 said:

 I am a sucker for bright blue on a car  like the first series countach, a G-esprit Alpine A110 and don't forget my little banks europa 62

That is bloody lovely 

[omegaman]

On 23/01/2021 at 17:56, Paul Coleman said:

Ah okay, well either way it's just a variable resistor from the gauge to ground so it won't make a blind bit of difference. The movement of the arm affects the resistance and nothing else. To reverse it you would have to rewire the sender.

It's easy enough to rewire some senders or you can swap the wires around at the gauge.....if it's an amp meter style setup. I don't know which style the Veglia is without taking a good look, if it's a thermostatic style then it would likely fry the sender if you did that. 

[Paul Coleman]

1 hour ago, omegaman said:

It's easy enough to rewire some senders or you can swap the wires around at the gauge.....if it's an amp meter style setup. I don't know which style the Veglia is without taking a good look, if it's a thermostatic style then it would likely fry the sender if you did that. 

I would imagine that it's just a simple moving coil meter with the sender acting as a variable resistor down to ground. If it is a moving coil meter then if you swap the wires on it you will try and wrap the needle round the wrong way, it won't compensate for the sender being the wrong way around.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Paul Coleman

[Lotusfab]

Well done Paul at getting the parts, can’t believe you have already found a lot of them! 

[omegaman]

Actually the Veglia is a differential coil meter, I removed mine from the dash yesterday to have a look. Looking from the back you have 3 pins, top left is 12v, top right is sender input, bottom pin is ground. The "full" coil 117 ohms is wired between 12v and sender pin and the "empty" coil is wired between the sender pin and  ground. If you ground the sender pin you effectively short out the "empty" coil which cause full deflection to "full".

 

You could reverse the polarity by using some chassis mount transistor insulating washers and pigtails for power, to avoid damaging the plastic circuit sheet on the back of the cluster, then add a shunt resistor to balance the coils.

 

I'll hook up the S2 sender on the bench and let you know what kind of range it has and if it acts as it should. 

 

[Paul Coleman]

1 hour ago, omegaman said:

Actually the Veglia is a differential coil meter, I removed mine from the dash yesterday to have a look. Looking from the back you have 3 pins, top left is 12v, top right is sender input, bottom pin is ground. The "full" coil 117 ohms is wired between 12v and sender pin and the "empty" coil is wired between the sender pin and  ground. If you ground the sender pin you effectively short out the "empty" coil which cause full deflection to "full".

You could reverse the polarity by using some chassis mount transistor insulating washers and pigtails for power, to avoid damaging the plastic circuit sheet on the back of the cluster, then add a shunt resistor to balance the coils.

I'll hook up the S2 sender on the bench and let you know what kind of range it has and if it acts as it should. 

Interesting. 

I asked Steve at SJ about the S2 sender and his reply was "The senders are electrically compatible but the S2 will not fit in the tank, unless it is a very early one.  The best way round this is for us to make you a special S1 tank with an Aftermarket sender fitted."

Not sure what constitutes a very early one?

[Paul Coleman]

5 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Well done Paul at getting the parts, can’t believe you have already found a lot of them! 

I bought the correct brown leather steering wheel yesterday including the original crash pad and boss. A black steering wheel/pad/boss is hard enough to find but the brown ones are even harder. My car had brown marcasite so would probably have had a brown wheel. I'm using Jon Roberts's car as a reference as his is the car after mine in terms of chassis numbers (I know the build dates are really what counts but it's as close as I've got). I thought last night how ironic it would be if the wheel I've just bought actually came from this car to start with!

I have also hopefully found the correct heater (fingers crossed) although I haven't actually bought it yet. The plenum for the early cars is obsolete and not available from SJ but I know somebody who may be able to sort that for me

There were a number of different style heaters because the demist vents changed from having 3 small rectangular dash vents initially to then having two long thin dash demisters and then later on there was also a demister in the binnacle. So mine is the middle one which means I need 4 hoses out of the heater, not five. Where's my anorak...