Type 135

[Bibs]

Some info in here around 45 mins in...

https://play.acast.com/s/the-driven-chat-podcast/lotusmdmattwindle-andamysbroughtanothernewcar..-

Early designs are complete in the design studio. 

Some more info in this interview...

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43250/lotus-boss-matt-windle-talks-evija-delays-emira-hype-and-big-plans-for-the-2020s

 

[KusaKusa]

I wanted to make this thread to consolidate discussion and all the known information on Type 135, especially since now that I have a huge breakdown of some LEVA platform white papers.  This post will contain the LEVA white paper info and I'll have a separate follow-up comment of the other currently known info.  Sub-bulleted points are my editorial comments.  Full white paper documents are attached, but I tried to take out all the important bits and bold more important ones.

 

General Structure:

• The compactness and close proximity of the battery enclosure, electric drive units (EDU), and rear structure open significant space for interior storage and underbody aero such as diffusers
• 
• Overall other than the aluminum low pressure die cast structure, pretty much the rest of the platform is good ol’ extruded bonded aluminum
• The cast structure is incredibly stiff from the low pressure diecast and BD1 alloy.  It carries all (except 1) of the suspension components, which results in accurate suspension tolerances which is key for Lotus ride and handling characteristics vs standard attachment to different components.
  • The cast stiffness could be correlated to the smaller size of other extrusion components vs the Evora platform, like the crash structure
• The stiff cast structure is directly connected to the battery structure, the stiffest part of the platform.  This reduces weight vs standard separate subframe designs
  • This will likely lead to higher overall vehicle rigidity
• The platform can be adapted for a high pressure die cast structure instead if high volumes are necessary.
• Computer aided design of the multilink suspension components led to a 38% unsprung mass reduction vs a standard suspension
• 
• Example picture of the entire e-sports platform built from LEVA:
• 

Motor:

• High level vehicle critical targets:
• 
• Entry level vehicle versions can have some relaxed performance targets at around 200-250 km/h top speed and < 4-5 seconds 0-100 km/h acceleration.
• Overall, the paper dives into an “In-House Storm Twin Unit” for details.  With this context, it’s likely the actual EDU details and specs are still in development or being chosen.
• 
• The EDU is an integrated unit that combines the motor, transmission, control unit, and inverter into a single overall unit. 
  • This is a somewhat common approach and has been utilized by Tesla for a while
• Lotus is looking for the power electronics, specifically the inverter, to handle significantly high-power demands over time such as 800-900 Amps rms for 10 seconds.  They will utilize silicon carbide semiconductors to process high levels of electric power and efficiency.  They are looking into cooling EDU components with a flooded dielectric coolant, which will allow even higher peak power for 30 seconds, higher power density, and less cost from less silicon carbide.
  • Dielectric coolant is rare in automotive, but it is a mature technology from industrial power conversion and likely tech industries.  Silicon carbide semiconductors are currently uncommon in automotive and are only in newer Teslas like the Model S Plaid
• Lotus is looking into an axial flux motor design supplied by YASA compared to the essentially ubiquitous radial flux design. Generally, axial flux motors are much lighter, more torque dense, and more efficient.  Current designs can reach a 5-10% WLTP range increase and 14kW/kg, vs Tesla motors reaching 5kW/kg.  Current hurdles with known designs are low top RPMs (often leading to low top horsepower or top speed) and high cost.
  • YASA was recently acquired by Daimler for Mercedes-AMG future high performance vehicles.  I wonder if this is coincidence since YASA is based in the UK or if Lotus and AMG have more collaboration than we expect including the Emira 2.0L M139 engine.
• The YASA motor has 200-250kW (268-335 hp) continuous power and 250-350kW (335-469 hp) of peak power (like for the Porsche Taycan Sport Response button). 
  • Honestly, the power figures seem significantly low, especially for continuous power.  I have to wonder if the axial flux motor and weight savings are worth that power figure
  • The 350kW figure matches up to what was in the LEVA announcement, so this was likely the motor in the considered design. 
• Torque vectoring is a significant consideration for Lotus as it can specifically control understeer gradient and yaw rate gain, optimize high speed stability and low speed agility, and maximize traction per tire.  It can also provide stability during rear motor regen braking. 
  • On regen braking, most EVs are dual motor AWD to regen with the front wheels, but stating this fact means Lotus is heavily considering on only focusing on RWD
• A dual isolation bushing arrangement holds the EDU(s) and removes the need for a normal dedicated rear subframe
• Alternative EDUs have been explored and can be packaged in the LEVA setup with minor adjustments

Battery:

• Lotus is utilizing a structural battery pack, where the components of the battery are developed holistically with the entire vehicle structure to have multi-functional parts for structure and rigidity and reduce redundant parts.  The vehicle structure is made to protect occupants and have natural stiffness, while also doubling as the battery protective outer housing and structural members for its weight.  The body and battery enclosure being made of aluminum have it serve as EMC protection as well.
• The rectangular-shaped battery modules are positioned in the pack vertically with the long sides top-down.  With the pack cross brace and base plate on the top and bottom, this creates a stiff I-beam design for the entire pack.  This in the overall chest-shaped battery pack also reduces “panting” behavior and vibrations from vehicle motion along the Z axis (top-down) compared to a skateboard battery layout, which also reduces relative weight since skateboard layouts need additional structuring to control the behavior. 
• 
• 
• 
• Repairability and serviceability are significant considerations in the design.  Battery modules can be replaced individually from below due to their vertical orientation, and electrical and cooling connections are accessible from above.  Individual modules cannot be as easily replaced when laid flat in a skateboard battery layout.
• Lotus is aware of the cell-to-pack strategy major automakers are developing (i.e. getting rid of individual modules and putting cells directly into the battery pack as effectively a single big module to save weight/cost), but it doesn’t necessarily fit the requirements for Lotus.  The approach is worse for serviceability and repairability and favors low-cost batteries (like iron phosphate cathodes, which should also have a lower defect rate), where replacing the entire pack is feasible
• Instead of the usual solution of using a cooling plate and thermal transfer material, the battery busbars and cell terminals are cooled directly with dielectric coolant to reduce complexity.  A cooling plate between module pairs can be utilized if dielectric fluid is deemed too expensive. 
  • Dielectric coolant is rare in automotive, but it is a mature technology from industrial power conversion and likely tech industries
• The energy density per weight of the structure is over 190 Wh/kg when assuming high energy battery chemistries.  In comparison at the pack level, the Tesla Model 3 is around 170 Wh/kg (76.5/450) and the Porsche Taycan is around 150 Wh/kg (93.4/620).
• A wireless battery management system (wBMS) removes the need for many wires, harnesses, connectors, and additional volume allocated for the material and accessibility that are traditionally used for battery management.  This reduces battery wiring by 90% overall, decreases battery volume by 15%, reduces weight, reduces material and manufacturing cost, and enhances safety, reliability vs wire connections, and repairability.
• Battery structure has adjustable dimensions for alternate battery configurations
• 
• Current design and work focuses on a 21700 cylindrical cell form factor (used in current Teslas before they transition to 4680 cells), but it can transfer to a larger cell dimension easily, specifically mentioning the 4680 cell

LEVA - Battery Development_RELEASE_21SEP21.pdf LEVA - EDU Development_RELEASE_21SEP21.pdf LEVA - Platform Concept_RELEASE_21SEP21.pdf LEVA - Structure and CAE_RELEASE_21SEP21.pdf

Edited December 12, 2021 by KusaKusa

[KusaKusa]

September 21, 2021 - Lotus initial press release for LEVA platform for EV sports cars:  https://media.lotuscars.com/en/news-articles/lotus-reveals-pioneering-blueprint-for-next-generation-electric-sports-cars.html

 

 September 26, 2021 - Forbes LEVA breakdown and interview with Rackham, head of vehicle concepts at Lotus:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/markewing/2021/09/26/lotus-unveils-modular-lightweight-electric-vehicle-architecture-for-two-sports-cars-and-perhaps-a-22-gt/?sh=2bb259d16167

Notes:

On 05/10/2021 at 11:02, KusaKusa said:

Some takeaways:

• "According to Rackham, the mass and packaging of the battery, cabling and motor(s) approximates the weight and physical dimensions of a comparably powerful internal combustion powertrain." Matt Windle had said in a previous interview that they need their EV sports car to match the weight of the Emira, and Rackham has confirmed they achieved that.
• Still no decision whether to use a front motor or not, due to weight concerns. Definitive no on using a 2 speed gearbox also due to weight.
• More focus on torque vectoring as a characteristic of EVs that Lotus can use to make their cars drive more like Lotus. Hopefully they can still apply torque vectoring even with just a single rear motor.
• No official confirmation, but Lotus is still aiming for a 40/60 weight distribution with their EV sports cars.

 

There's a another new Forbes article interviewing Matt Windle, but it's kinda fluff with no specific details. Just Windle assuaging that Chinese manufactured SUVs will still be focused on drivers, drive like Lotus, and be premium. Forbes: Lotus Managing Director Matt Windle On The Sports Car Brand’s Electric Future

 

October 11, 2021 - Autocar interview with Matt Windle about Type 135:  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2026-lotus-type-135-electric-elise-successor-detailed

Notes:

On 30/09/2021 at 11:38, KusaKusa said:

Takeaways:

• Lots of comparisons of Type 135 to the Elise.  The LEVA wheelbase is minimum 97 inches, vs almost exactly that of the Porsche Cayman, close to the 101 inch Evora wheelbase, and not close to the 90.6 inch Elise wheelbase or 96 inch A110 wheelbase.  So I think Type 135 will be closer to an EV Emira than Elise, but maybe Autocar has more direct confirmation from Lotus.
• Type 135 could be priced at the upper end of the Exige pricing.  Autocar thinks that suggests a price between 80-100k pounds.  Lotus emphasized committing to affordable performance.
• Using an EV has "a lot of storage and packaging benefits", so Type 135 will likely be more space practical for its size than ICE counterparts.
• The E-Sports platform can have a front motor, and Lotus doesn't want to close off that possibility, especially with the tech/learnings from the Evija.
• Aerodynamics are becoming a core part of Lotus' defining differentiators.  It's not just from a historically practical standpoint but seemingly also marketing; so much so that Type 135 will have aero aids "running through the car" similar in some way to the Evija.  
• LEVA is compatible with 800V charging.

 

October 18-21, 2021 - Autocar analyses on Lotus LEVA platform and Type 135:  

• https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology-news/under-skin-science-behind-lotuss-e-sports-architecture
• https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/analysis-lotus-e-sports-ev-platform-made-sharing

 

December 2, 2021 - TheSmokingTire podcast talk with Matt Windle, Russell Carr, and Gavin Kershaw:  

Notes:

Quote

Briefly mentioned Type 135 at 48 minutes. It seemed like the Emira would be the entry level sports car and they'd be looking to fill out their product portfolio upwards in price, so Type 135 would be more expensive. That'd be unfortunate, and I don't know how Lotus can make a case for the single motor 470 HP EV to be over the top end of Emira pricing like into $100k USD, even if it's a sports car. The Emira wouldn't be sellable in several countries shortly after Type 135 comes out in 2026 anyway, so they'd lose that segment. 

December 3, 2021 - TheDrive interview with Matt Windle:  https://www.thedrive.com/news/43250/lotus-boss-matt-windle-talks-evija-delays-emira-hype-and-big-plans-for-the-2020s?fbclid=IwAR2GfL8p8QROGUC7QxCKxE9XMojEVoiQEMR9N4jm6uphY7YlQ49CdXLlgeo

Notes:

Quote

I've actually seen some of the initial work they're doing on the next sports car [Type 135] and it's blown me away already. It will be everything we want it to be: beautiful, lightweight. It will be the Lotus you expect and it will have an amazing performance as well. We are driven by those [principles], lightweighting, dynamics, aerodynamics, they're our core that have been in our business from Chapman...

The challenge that I've set them for Type 135 is that it needs to weigh the same as Emira as an electric-propulsion car. So they've had to think differently, and the weight saving is significant between what they've done on Project LEVA and where we currently are.

 

 December 6, 2021 - Driven interview with Matt Windle:  

Notes:

• Matt Windle thinks the Type 135 design looks GOOD; he’s super happy with it
• There are ongoing projects on highly efficient and power dense EDUs – this is likely around axial flux motors as they’re notable for these qualities.  Lotus may be looking to improve their performance
• Currently looking into what battery cells to use
• Type 135 will be slightly bigger than Emira

Edited December 12, 2021 by KusaKusa
Formatting

[NedaSay]

I see great resarch here. Kudos and Thank you Kusa Kusa

[KusaKusa]

Thanks! I believe in Lotus' bet on EVs and that the fruit of their years of labor and expertise will be a great, emotional, and unique sports car offering in a sea of mass market EVs. I hope to stir up focus, hype, and conversation on it even if it's 4-5 years away.

[Sam Downey]

Just read through this today to cheer myself up after seeing the news that the Elise, Exige and Evora have ceased production. Mission accomplished! Some really exciting bits of information in here. Looking forward to seeing more news!

[KusaKusa]

Yeah, while the Evora sorta lives on in the Emira, the loss of the Elise and Exige is big.  We won't see even EV equivalents to small cars like those for a long while, until we get solid state batteries which will be a generation past the upcoming E-Sports platform with Type 135.  But Lotus characteristics of great handling, small and connected cars, and lightweight can still live on and be differentiated in EVs while utilizing their strengths of linear power, high power density in small packages, massive torque, instant motor responses, and advanced torque vectoring behavior.   And with a Type 135 target weight of the same as Emira, the weight downside doesn't seem to be a huge departure to what's deemed acceptable.  Read articles on test drives of Porsche's Mission R (Cayman-like "midengine" battery EV racecar), and it seems fun behaving/performing cars will still be a thing even with EVs.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/porsche/mission-r/

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/porsche-mission-r-electric-race-car-concept-first-drive-review/

[eUKenGB]

Interesting info about Lotus' plans for its E-Sports cars. Looks like a regular RWD and a slightly longer 4WD are on the cards. However of greater interest to me is the slightly taller 2+2 it seems they are also preparing for. So an electric Evora, which is what I always wanted since first discovering the Evora.

However, are all the above intended to be under the 135 umbrella or would that take us to 136 and 137?

Since any of them are apparently 3-5 years away and Toyota will reportedly release an EV with Solid State Batteries this year, I think SSBs would be a distinct possibility for these forthcoming Lotus models.

[KusaKusa]

The LEVA based platform accommodates several types of vehicles, but only the 2 seater with the small battery (type 135) is a confirmed vehicle for Lotus. Just because the other configurations are possible doesn't necessarily mean Lotus will build them, because Lotus wanted the platform to be used by other manufacturers like how Alpine currently is doing. 

Solid state batteries were something I was thinking about vs type 135 as well. Is it a waste for Lotus to focus on lightweight EVs without them and with them possibly so close? I think there's a window of opportunity for them in existing battery tech.

To use current liquid electrolyte nickel based batteries as an example, the business case for these batteries was proven in the Tesla Model S back in 2012. Yet even now in 2022, companies are still struggling to scale up supply chains and manufacturing for that technology, and pretty much all vehicles available are passenger SUVs with few to no commerical niche products. Battery costs are still pretty high. Yield for existing batteries is at like 80%. And these growing pains will have to be repeated with SSBs (though only partially because the supply chain is similar and the current factories can be mostly reworked to change to some solid state tech). Like Toyota said their first vehicles with SSBs will be hybrids because they don't have the scale yet for full EVs. 

I suspect most manufacturers will use SSB's better kWh/weight to add more energy (range) for weight about equal to existing EVs rather than reduce weight for the same range. And to truly take advantage of SSBs weight savings, companies would need a new platform. Not only are the batteries themselves lighter, but better volumetric density means fewer structures around the battery are needed, better gravimetric density and better fire safety risk both mean less crash reinforcement around the battery is needed. The scale of SSB manufacturing and sales need to mature before such platforms will be developed, then there's the platform development time, and then there's time to the scale of the platform sales and its usage across products before it becomes well priced. This is especially true for dedicated sports car / "midengine" platforms, which have poor business cars. By the time this all happens, there's plenty of time to enjoy type 135 and maybe even trade it in when the next best thing appears.

Lastly, rather than waiting for the perfect solution, I think type 135 hits performance metrics well enough for me personally. About equal weight to existing ICEs and equal or better HP/lb and HP/cost is light weight enough for me. And at least 250 miles is good enough for me, though I am hesitant that real world range will be much lower when at 80mph US highways. Even if weight or range are improved with SSB vehicles, they're only marginal improvements that don't detract from if type 135 is a good fit for me.

Edited January 16, 2022 by KusaKusa

[eUKenGB]

For sure I am very attracted by the idea of the 135, unfortunately however I think my days of very low 2 seaters is over as e.g. the Elise is almost impossible for me to get into and worse to get out - if the roof is in place. My back and neck just don't bend like they used to. The Evora was ok though and its +2 practicality made it a very attractive proposition. My heart yearns for an Emira, but my body says "no way". ☹️

In any case, no more ICE for me, so beautiful as both the Evora and Emira are, neither are an option. However I am very interested in Lotus' EV future.

While an SUV or crossover is also attractive from the point of view of getting in and out, the idea of an electric Evora is still at the top of my list and with the possibility of such a 2+2 based on the new 135 platform, it occurs to me that Lotus must be thinking of producing something like that.

Certainly 'interesting times', but I've never been more undecided.

[eUKenGB]

In addition to what I said above, my lazy Sunday morning brain now remembers that one of the Lotus team stated how they realised they needed to improve ingress and egress and managed to make the Emira as easy as the Evora. Which means the low 2 seaters are more of a possibility for me than something like the Elise. However the taller +2 mentioned, based on a 'skateboard' battery positioning would of course also be higher off the ground and even easier, as I think is mentioned in the video.

It also occurs to me, why would Lotus design such a flexible platform and then not take advantage of that themselves. Instead, just letting other manufacturers reap the benefits. Sure, allow other manufacturers to use/license those platform variants, but I can't help thinking that only makes sense if Lotus themselves are making full use of it.

It also seems to me that a range of cars, from 2 seaters with either just RWD or longer with 4WD, plus a slightly taller (4WD?) 2+2 would be ideally suited to comprise Lotus' range of E-Sports.

So my considered opinion (clearly just speculation though) is that we will see such cars from Lotus as it makes the most sense from the information we have today.

Which of course helps me not at all. 🙄

[Il fenomino]

21 hours ago, eUKenGB said:

For sure I am very attracted by the idea of the 135, unfortunately however I think my days of very low 2 seaters is over as e.g. the Elise is almost impossible for me to get into and worse to get out - if the roof is in place. My back and neck just don't bend like they used to. The Evora was ok though and its +2 practicality made it a very attractive proposition. My heart yearns for an Emira, but my body says "no way". ☹️

In any case, no more ICE for me, so beautiful as both the Evora and Emira are, neither are an option. However I am very interested in Lotus' EV future.

While an SUV or crossover is also attractive from the point of view of getting in and out, the idea of an electric Evora is still at the top of my list and with the possibility of such a 2+2 based on the new 135 platform, it occurs to me that Lotus must be thinking of producing something like that.

Certainly 'interesting times', but I've never been more undecided.

So then the Type 134 could be the car for people like you. The small SUV. Probably with dimensions like a Porsche Macan. This way you can get in and out easily as well as sitt comfortably. Probably this is the reason these cars are so popular.

[eUKenGB]

Indeed. I am watching everything >131 with great interest.

[exeterjeep]

1 hour ago, Il fenomino said:

So then the Type 134 could be the car for people like you. The small SUV

I think if the 134 is the 'small' suv then it is of more interest to me, but it looks a long way off. Note there is no thread for 134.(yet). I really hope lotus gets on and gets some cars delivered, there has been an age between the Evija announcement and any upcoming deliveries. The Emira seems at least 5 months away from any  volume deliveries.

[Il fenomino]

The Type 134 will be released in 2024. So before the 135. 

[eUKenGB]

So with 132 in 2022 and 134 in 2024 - is there a pattern here? 😀

[Il fenomino]

And the 133 in 2023

[eUKenGB]

Yup, that's how patterns work 😄

4 hours ago, exeterjeep said:

…Note there is no thread for 134.(yet). …

I just asked Bibs and he's kindly added a 134 section.

[Bibs]

https://www.thelotusforums.com/latest-news/lotus-cars-news/lotus-to-collaborate-with-britishvolt-as-sketch-of-future-ev-sports-cars-is-released/

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

Finally coming to market?

[exeterjeep]

12 minutes ago, LotusLeftLotusRight said:

Finally coming to market?

When I saw the image it struck me that it looks a bit like an esprit - I think it is the angle of the flag  along the side at the back.

[hedgerley]

Definitely inspired by the Esprit - flat windscreen, the roofline, side window/quarter light/flag, centre line, pointy front end. Absolutely. But I don't think the 135 will be an Esprit reboot. The 135 is I think more of an Elise/Exige/Alpine class. The Esprit reboot has to be the big two-seater GT, hopefully Type 136/7, to complement the 4 door sedan, Type 133. And I think that better fits with the Britishvolt timeframe for next gen technology, maybe even dry cells.

[KusaKusa]

Matt Windle said Type 135 will be a bit bigger than the Emira, so it'll likely be in the Cayman size class rather than a size below at Elise class.  

[KusaKusa]

Even if Lotus follows the Esprit as inspiration, I think what will make Type 135 look distinctly different are the wheel arches. Instead of small flares outward that were common at that time, they'll likely be visually distinct arches coming out of the body work. Lotus has said they like that design motif in their recent cars since it helps specifically locate and place the wheels. With arches like that, the wedge shape will probably be broken up a good amount and maybe only identifiable with flat surfaces (e.g. front hood meeting the windshield) or through the side silhouette.

I think these aspects are apparent when looking at the upcoming Lotus EV teaser images that included Type 135 a while back. We can also deduce that the wedge shape in the back likely tapers inward the vehicle.

[eUKenGB]

I have to say I don't see the Esprit at all in the 135 design sketch. A couple of similar angles maybe, but apart from that the Esprit was a flat surfaced wedge whereas that 135 sketch is all flowing curves, as KusaKusa mentions above. Far more reminiscent of the Emira in my opinion and that is more reminiscent of the Evora than any other Lotus.

Again though, just my opinion.

Edited January 29, 2022 by eUKenGB