Type 135

[KusaKusa]

1 hour ago, NedaSay said:

Lotus has been very quiet on the development of their sport cars  ever since they made the LEVA announcement and the tie up with Alpine. But we know the architecture is ready so they would be fully in the tooling engineering and parts procurement right now.

The fact of the matter is, they want to focus fully on the visible part of the iceberg, Emira is still ramping  up, Eletre launch is imminent, Evija is still not with customers, and Type 133 unveil is also imminent. The marketing, communication and PR departments have never been this busy ever. Same can be said about Q.A, production and sales and I don't think Lotus did scale effort quite acccordingly. Trying to handle global sales directly is not easy and I think they have realized it, so they have to get a good handle on that. Engineering is continuing at pace so the cars will be delivered on time or thereabout sourcing permitting.

I think the electric sport cars are a few years away

Agreed. Most of the information I've gotten so far have been from the LEVA announcement and interviews where the topic of Type 135 comes up offhandedly.  Is there any information from insiders that you may have or detailed elsewhere?

[KusaKusa]

Lotus investor presentation for going public has a good amount of information about Type 135:  https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1841024/000110465923008631/tm234838d9_425.htm

• Type 135 is expected to reveal in 2025 and go for sale in 2027
• Type 135 average MSRP is $95,000 USD.  To put "average" into perspective, Emira lists $85k with an actual price range of $75k to $94k not including shipping. 
• Sale volume is 10-15k (projected in 2029), versus the Emira's 5-6k.  Big jump in Hethel's output.
• Emira "is expected" to be converted to BEV from 2027 onwards.  That's new news, and no idea how they'll do that with its platform or differentiate it from Type 135.

 

[AK70]

With the first spy shots of the new E Boxter, I assume it will be presented in 2023.
The E Cayman then in 2024.. So well ahead of the Type 135. I hope Lotus will push forward the 135, before the 133 and 134. As Tesla started a price war, no one needs another SUV or Limo in that segment...

[JimH]

Unlikely, as Type 135 is planned to be produced at Hethel, and they haven't got to grips with the Emira yet...... There are already Type 133's testing in China (Wuhan production) too.....

[AK70]

I fear for Lotus that you are right! In their investor presentation they brag about the timing and that no competitor has an similar offer in time… That‘s not even true in the SUV segment.. and now with E cayman/boxter simply wrong in the sports car segment.. 
Have they delivered an Evjia ?

The Emira now slowly arrive at customers who have ordered years ago.

But I got the feeling it all is a bit too late too little.. hope I‘m wrong. 

I think availability will be the key to success for Lotus. If one cannot go test drive and then buy and receive a car within 3-6month, people will just buy something else (as happing with some Emira customer in the waiting list..)

 

[KusaKusa]

Bloomberg: Renault Leans Toward Making Alpine On Its Own, Not With Lotus

Article says the decision isn't being driven by sour relations.  I read David Twohig's book on working in Renault and as the chief engineer on the A110, and Renault definitely have the in-house expertise in EVs demonstrated with the Zoe, sports car tuning with the A110, and dedicated manufacturing factory with similar chassis technologies (bonded extruded aluminum) with the A110.  With Alpine gradually growing in importance in Renault's portfolio, it does seem to make sense to solely absorb more of those initial development costs with the previously mentioned synergies and reap more of the rewards in commercialization.

[NedaSay]

It does make sense from the Renault Group perspective, especially with the need for them to build the car in Dieppe.

[EuropaSman]

Just published in the last few hours here in the UK. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/alpine-and-lotus-axe-deal-co-develop-electric-sports-car

[NedaSay]

Yup it happened, and I believe Lotus have been aware of it for a while. Alpine is at the crossroads in terms of strategy while Lotus has a clear plan for now. 

Dieppe factory is still at the heart of alpine sports car strategy as is Hethel for Lotus. Sharing the chassis of more properly said using the Type 135 chassis would have saved Alpine cost but also negated the need for Dieppe as both cars production would have been more cost effective sharing one production line. Besides brexit still has an impact on business decision, and Alpine is going to try to hammer the  haute couture / made in France message down in the next few years.

I don't believe it changes any thing for Lotus they heavy lifting for type 135 has been done already under project LEVA. Now they are in tooling, production engineering and procurement mode for the "Elise" class  model. they have everything available in house or in the group as the footprint growth of the group is almost hard to fathom. Beside with Geely now a 17% shareholder in Aston Martin, I do think project LEVA architecture will find a suitable buyer sooner than later.

[Sport220]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2026-lotus-type-135-electric-elise-still-works-after-alpine-split
 

475 hp +, Exige Cup money. Yep, the Elise is very much dead.
Much more interested in Caterham’s Project V
 

 

 

[DarrylV8]

475+hp at Exige money certainly gets my vote.

[KusaKusa]

Based on the investor slide on upcoming Lotus models average MSRP, it'll be more expensive than the Emira.  The slide said $95k USD, but it also had the Emira price before the increase at $85k, so Type 135 will likely easily pass $100k.  It's a shame; so much for being the everyman's attainable dream car.

Oh and to be thorough, there's no new information in that article besides Autocar confirming that Type 135 is still in development after the Alpine split.

Edited June 22, 2023 by KusaKusa

[DarrylV8]

@KusaKusa I assume you’re looking for an EV sports car in the price range of the MG Cyberster?

[KusaKusa]

@DarrylV8 The MG Cyberster is way lower than I was expecting or aiming for, if it were to come to the US.  I was okay with around a $80-100k USD pre-tax pricepoint, with a base motor for RWD only and okay options.  Some sites are expecting the Porsche 718 EV to start around $80k, so even with "Porsche options" I think around $100k for that target spec is possible.  But Type 135 starting around $100k and going past that is too much though :(. 

If the Cyberster were to come to the US, it'd likely be in contention simply from its price.  But it'd be a wait-and-see affair to see initial feedback, because it's suspiciously too good to be true.  There is surprisingly little information out there about its engineering.

[eUKenGB]

11 hours ago, KusaKusa said:

@DarrylV8… There is surprisingly little information out there about its engineering.

Indeed, I have been trying to ascertain more of the Cyberster's 'engineering', but nothing found yet. Importantly it is in the right price range. Sadly it seems almost all the existing manufacturers want to get into the £100k plus bracket and see electrification as the way to do that. Jaguar is saying exactly that.

Realistically, the Cyberster will not be equivalent to a Lotus, with the latter's focus on driving performance, but to be honest, that doesn't bother me. Any car nowadays is faster than the roads, so no point in spending more for that top end performance that you will never be able to use. Unless on a track, but been there, done that, no longer interested.

I see the Cyberster as more of a MB SL equivalent than any Lotus and that suits me fine. I loved my SL500. A fantastic car and exactly what I wanted, except it wasn't electric. So the Cyberster definitely appeals. Yes, so do the Lotus EVs, but the way their prices are creeping up, they are heading into the 'completely irrelevant' territory.

[KusaKusa]

Caterham shows lightweight electric sports car for 2026

Very interesting proposition from the Caterham concept. I like how straightforward and detailed the Caterham people are about the product. The pricing could potentially be a competitor for the other EV sports cars from OEMs and Lotus, but a lot can change from now until 2025/2026.

There are a lot of hurdles for Caterham to overcome for this to be successful. Especially contracting manufacturing to another party. But good luck to them!

Edited July 12, 2023 by KusaKusa

[eUKenGB]

33 minutes ago, KusaKusa said:

Caterham shows lightweight electric sports car for 2026

Ha, I was only just looking at that a few minutes ago and thinking it was a Lotus competitor. However, like Lotus, the "starting at about £80k" shows it as an attempt by another manufacturer to leapfrog into the supercar stratosphere with an overpriced EV.

Regarding pricing and in relation to the Cyberster, why is that being priced as high as it is? It is after all based on the same platform as the MG4 - a car which can sell at £30k. Electronics and displays etc will cost no more, it costs no more to bend metal into one shape or another, so why the almost 100% hike in price? Because they can.

How can cars sell in China for so much less than the same car over here? Because that's what the Chinese market will stand. Outside China there are too many fools prepared to spend vastly more and so the market keeps moving upward in price. Car costs the same to produce, so it is clear that the higher prices outside China are pure profit. Manufacturers justify their prices, complaining that EVs are so expensive to produce, then are strangely able to sell them at much lower prices in China. Who's pulling whose leg here?

It is all about profit and the more expensive the car, the more profit there is in it for the manufacturer who simply tries to extort as much of it as possible from their customers. I understand the principle of supply and demand, but this just serves to increase the gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. Carried to its logical conclusion, eventually there will be NO reasonably priced cars available, so 'having' or 'not' will then mean cars.

Apart from that, I do really like the new Caterham. 😀

[darkSol]

I know I'm dreaming but if Lotus can do this with the Type 135 and the LEVA platform they'll have a winner.

1190kg. 470hp @ £79995 would be a dream.

CarTest2000 yields the following with that power-to-weigh:

0-60 mph: 2.94 sec

0-100 mph: 5.89 sec

0-130 mph: 9.52 sec

0-150 mph: 13.21 sec

1/4 mile: 10.56 sec @ 135.5 mph

Top speed: 180 mph

(16500 rpm top motor speed, 6.95:1 single reduction gear, 275/30-19" rear tires. 0.34 drag coefficient - just a guess)

(Been using CarTest Software since 1994  )

[DarrylV8]

Yep looking forward to what Lotus (UK) are going to do with EV sports cars, hopefully they will follow Russell’s Evija/Emira design style, as T133 appears to have lost the front bonnet aero vents

[Bee]

Fishing from the same pond?  Polestar's roadster, aiming for 2026 deliveries...

 

Polestar 6 - LA Concept edition I Polestar UK

 

Porsche's 'E' Boxster and Cayman are launching in 2025; MG's Cyberster is to be released next summer. It does, I suppose, give Lotus a chance to benchmark against a few competitors, before it hits the road, four (or so) years from now, although they may well take it upmarket by that point. It will be interesting to see where they pitch/price it, as the 'sports car' in their range of SUVs and super-saloons.

[DaveC72]

I actually like this.  And for a moment thought about joining the waiting list... and then I saw $200K.  

I'm thinking that it's rapidly becoming a lot like this...

[C8RKH]

The stratospheric march in prices upwards baffles me. The average salary in the UK is c. £33k and yet the average EV price is way above that point. So where are the buyers coming from? 

I bought my Evora 410 new, but it wasn't £100k and I cannot ever see myself spending £100k, or more, on a car. Just don't see the point, or the need, to pay that sort of money for what will still be a run of the mill car, to be honest.

Yes, I can see why you would spend £100k+ on a Ferrari, or even a classic car. But £100k say for a Range Rover, that will lose you £30k+ in 3 years and will just make you another Mr. Jones with a Range Rover. Let's be honest, there is no exclusivity or cachet really around brands like this, as every winker seems to have one these days and they're everywhere. Cars have become fashion accessories (look at the new Land Rover Defender) and statements of wealth (look at me).

[KusaKusa]

Auto Express: All-electric Lotus ‘Type 135’ sports car on track for 2025 reveal

Article says the car is on track for a 2025 reveal and 2027 UK deliveries, but I'm not sure if this is newly confirmed info or based on previously announced dates from Lotus. Otherwise the article is a summary of already known info.

[Bibs]

Same on carbuzz now - https://carbuzz.com/news/electric-lotus-sports-car-coming-just-in-time-to-fight-electric-porsche-718-cayman

[KusaKusa]

Interview with the founder of YASA, the company behind the yokeless axial flux motors that Lotus was looking to use in Type 135:

 

 

Some notes:

• Current YASA axial flux motor offerings are 2 generations behind what's being developed today.  Mercedes (bought out YASA) is currently creating a factory to create hundreds of thousands per year of their in-development motor planned for the middle of the decade.
• Current focus is sports cars and hyper cars, with cheap production cars being at least years out.  There are a couple OEM customers hinted having products manufactured currently.
  • These above points should address a lot of my personal concerns with the motor that could've made it a non-starter for Lotus:  price with economy of scale (plus axial flux was more expensive to manufacture), viability in every day products or pure EVs since YASA motors currently are only used as helper motors in hybrid supercars, the top speed concerns of axial flux, and amount of power (since current motors are only around 150-200 hp).
• Power density is getting to "eye-watering" numbers.  Power density is comparable to carbon ceramic brakes (I assume acceleration vs deceleration power) and are seeing gains around 20% increase per year.