Type 135

[Leon]

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/concept/polestar-o2-concept-ridiculously-cool-ev-roadster#comments

Who can see the element of Lotus in this new Polestar 2+2? Nothing EV has really caught my interest yet as a potential replacement to a 2+2 sports car in EV guise until now. I would almost have this on looks alone😁 I’m looking forward to seeing the Lotus 2+2 offering if it will be similar to this 👀

[eUKenGB]

It is the first 2+2 EV that I can think of, so interesting even just from that point of view. Why not more of that type though. My ideal car is not a huge 4 door, nor a limited 2 seater.

As I keep saying, I want an electric Evora. Lotus could obviously do it. But will they? In my lifetime that is. 😀

[exeterjeep]

Everyone must need a drone  camera system that you can deploy to watch over your driving... like having Bibs in the boot?

[KusaKusa]

Definitely like the Polestar O2 concept. Unfortunately I don't think we can deduce anything about Lotus vehicles from the Polestar concept. Polestar will use their own in-house electric drive unit with a strong motor and 2 speed transmission. The platform is based on the Polestar 5's bonded aluminum platform, but that's a space frame with stamped aluminum instead of the Lotus tub with extrusions. And the batteries are on the bottom like a normal skateboard layout. It'll be interesting to see if they can make the actual vehicle have good proportions with a small size but highish ride height. 

But it fulfills my wants for a small, sporty, and good looking EV. I'll keep my eye on it!

[AK70]

On 12/12/2021 at 02:03, KusaKusa said:

Type 135 will be slightly bigger than Emira

Stop making all cars bigger! Especially you Lotus!   😉

 

[JimH]

An October 2021 article, but linked here for completeness...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/2026-lotus-type-135-electric-elise-successor-detailed

And a comedy render, of course, as it's Autocar  - Q. What do you get if you photoshop the vents and grilles off of an Emira? 🤣

[DaveC72]

On 03/03/2022 at 15:59, exeterjeep said:

Everyone must need a drone  camera system that you can deploy to watch over your driving... like having Bibs in the boot?

That wouldn't do much for the handling...

 

[Bibs]

Extra downforce, what's not to like 🤣

[KusaKusa]

I'll put EV Porsche Cayman stuff here as well since both it and Type 135 are the first of their kind (actually second including the 1st Tesla Roadster).  So characterizing the Porsche will get us a better idea of what the Lotus could be like. 

Anyway, here's Chris Harris driving what's basically the Mission R concept, but difference here is that other journalists could only drive 60 mph max.  It's crazy how fast it can go around corners and how much traction it has simply from the EV AWD capabilities.  He seems to be a fan, and he seems pretty open minded to the EV transition as he owns a Polestar 1.

 

[KusaKusa]

Lotus' UK battery supplier Britishvolt buys out a German battery supplier:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/britishvolt-buys-german-battery-cell-maker-eas-36-mln-euros-2022-05-24/

I believe this confirms a few things:

- Britishvolt has a greater likelihood of not being vaporware. If they were strapped for cash to build their factories, they wouldn't spend millions to buy another company. 

- There's a significant chance that Type 135 will utilize 46xx sized battery cells. The German company specialized in large format cells, and Britishvolt says they're at the "final part of the 46xx cell development and commercialization". With how far we are out for Type 135 and the potential to use 4680 cells in the LEVA white papers, there's plenty of time to accommodate these cells to the upcoming vehicle. 

46xx sized cells are important because they have more volume than most cells used today. Bigger cells in fewer number means less volume/weight used for packaging individual cells. Tesla mentioned 4680 cells as an improvement in their 2020 or 2021 battery day. 

[eUKenGB]

12 hours ago, KusaKusa said:

…Bigger cells in fewer number means less volume/weight used for packaging individual cells…

Not really. The diameter of circles packed together does not affect the 'density'. Hard to explain, but smaller circles (i.e. cells) means more cells in a given space, but also more spaces/gaps between them, so the relative proportion/percentage of cell to gaps is constant, whatever the diameter of those circles/cells. Which means for a given height, i.e. length of cell, their diameter makes no difference to how much 'battery stuff' is contained in an assembly of many cells.

That's not to say there aren't advantages to using larger diameter cells, but density is not one of them.

Square cells could be more closely packed with resultant higher density, but cooling requirements mean the gaps between those round cells are actually beneficial. As usual, it's all about compromise.

[KusaKusa]

I believe you're talking about the packing efficiency of a thinner battery cell vs a thicker battery cell in a set space.  I meant to focus on how battery cells consist of material for cell outer packaging that add no direct value, vs. the electrolyte "jelly roll" that add value and power.  This outer packaging should be a fixed thickness for the most part, so making a battery cell bigger would increase the proportion of the electrolyte vs the packaging, thus increasing the power per volume/weight.  In comparison, I'm not sure how the losses in packing efficiency would contrast to those gains, but overall the shift from the currently normal 21700 battery size to 4680 was claimed by Tesla to bring a 16% range increase holistically.  This could easily be applicable to any size shift for other battery suppliers.

[eUKenGB]

Yes I was and you are correct that larger batteries reduces the percentage of packaging content.

With so much new battery technology on the horizon (solid state etc) it is both an exciting and a frustrating time.

[KusaKusa]

New Autocar article, but not too many new details:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lotus-plans-more-electric-sports-cars-beyond-2027-type-135

New information:

- Key dates confirmed to be 2026 reveal and 2027 start of production. I believe this is a year later than what many publications were estimating. 

- Matt Windle: "I've seen the design of the car. It's very exciting. Performance-wise, it will be incredible. We've set out the attributes we want from it, and we're really looking forward to getting it here."

- "It will be its own segment" instead of replacing any car outright. I wonder if this applies to both size/performance class and price. Emira and Type 135 production will have some overlap

- The Alpine collaboration isn't set in stone yet, but work is on track 

- Type 135 will have greater production numbers than Emira. Considering the 2028 goal of 90k yearly lifestyle vehicle sales and 10k sports car sales, probably most if not all 10k was planned to be Type 135 when that news was announced way back.

- Future EV sports cars will be determined once Evija and Emira hit full production. Emira was expected to hit 7k production in 2023 before the supply chain delays, so maybe late 2023 or early 2024 would be the approximate date for these.

[AK70]

My daily is now a Tesla 3. And yes, it somehow converted me into liking it. I would not go so far to call me a Fan, but boy that thing works...

I hope the Type 135 will be a convertible! For me the Emira comes too late to the party and I think by 2025 I would buy an EV sports car instead. Keeping the Evora until than.

[KusaKusa]

Some info from the Alpine side of an EV sports car:

New Alpine A110 EV will be halo car for expanded line-up:  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-alpine-a110-ev-will-be-halo-car-expanded-line  

This is the electric, convertible Alpine A110 ‘E-TERNITÉ’:  https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/electric-convertible-alpine-a110-e-ternite  

• Quote:  Talks between the two firms are centred on “the characteristics of the cars that we want to produce and the commonality of the solutions that we will apply to produce those cars”, revealed Rossi.  “Lotus and us share the same preoccupation, which is trying to make light, agile sports cars while obviously adding weight and electrifying,” he explained. “So it’s only normal that we think about those challenges together, at least upstream. We will see if we partner up, but obviously we share the same problems and the same opportunities.”
• The (potential) partnership between Alpine and Lotus actually sounds quite similar in scale to the partnership between Toyota and BMW for the latest Supra.  Co-development on the specs of a platform, based on parts/manufacturing of one of them, and maybe sharing the dev costs.  They may diverge the models at some point in development based on previous interviews saying they're aiming for different specs, but the collaboration is more than just Lotus being contracted to do work or Alpine leveraging their platform.
• Quote:  Rossi added that a final decision on a Dieppe-Hethel partnership will need to be made in around six months’ time, in line with the two firms’ planned launch timelines for their respective sports EVs. “By the end of this year, we need to know which platform and technological solutions we will use to produce our cars and so will they,” he said. “So we will decide whether or not the path forward is together.”
• If the companies solidify a lot of details by the end of this year, they seem on track for the 2026 release date.  And maybe we can hear more details on the specifications of the vehicle being leaked/revealed after this year.
• With the Alpine A110 EV prototype, it's based on the existing A110 platform with random, mostly in-house motors and battery modules shoved in.  So it's not related to Type 135, but its specs are a decent benchmark of what's possible with a compromised product.  That said, it weighs 1378kg (vs 1100kg of the ICE A110 and the Type 135 rough target of Emira's max 1485kg), has a battery capacity of 60 kWh (vs 66kWh target of Type 135), has a range of 261 miles, and has 268 horsepower from a single rear motor that can hit 60 mph in 4.5 seconds (4.0-4.5s target of the cheaper single motor Type 135 spec).  
• The A110 EV prototype seems okay overall, but contextually with the non-dedicated platform it bodes well for what the Type 135 can achieve with a dedicated platform and components.  The current spec targets don't seem far-fetched at all.

 

 

[AK70]

I have read an interview with Matt somewhere about the 135 will be ace.

Really looking forward to that as the SUVs do not interest me one bit.

Just hope, they are faster with the launch than Porsche with that eCayman..

I think this could well be my next Lotus! 🤫

[C8RKH]

@AK70 it's not due till 2026, we might all be dead by then, found slumped by a PC screen waiting for the final email...

[KusaKusa]

11 hours ago, AK70 said:

I have read an interview with Matt somewhere about the 135 will be ace.

Really looking forward to that as the SUVs do not interest me one bit.

Just hope, they are faster with the launch than Porsche with that eCayman..

I think this could well be my next Lotus! 🤫

There was an article a couple days ago about the Porsche Macan EV launch being delayed into 2024 because of the CARIAD software issues, and that the delay could have downstream delays to stuff like the Cayman EV.  So not sure when that'll be released.  Lotus' Type 135 has been leaning towards 2027 in press mentions more often than 2026.  There's also many factors that could delay the actual sale date of Type 135 vs what's likely a first reveal date in 2026/2027.  Like the Emira and Eletre are revealed around 8 months before their actual sale date, and then there are potential delays around type approval, supply chain disruptions (more likely for EVs and small production sports cars), and production ramp-up.  And for me, there's the likely ~1 year delay from UK/EU release vs US release (like how the Eletre is China/EU release in 2023 and US release in 2024) :(.

[KusaKusa]

Interview with Matt Windle about various topics, including the future cars and EVs:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42372933/matt-windle-lotus-future-prospects/

Relevant notes:

• Quality is a big part of their future direction, both for Emira and likely Type 135.  It's the main KPI from Geely.  Automated chassis assembly is demonstrating 99.7% accuracy.  They could be looking into using sheet metals for sports cars due to their projected volumes, which seem to improve quality.
• For production numbers, Lotus is expecting to sell more Type 135s than Emiras.  So Hethel's current production numbers around Emira will need to more than double to fit both.
• Lotus is looking to put their "intelligent cabin" tech, including software, IT, and autonomous driving, from Lotus Technology and the lifestyle vehicles into the sports cars. 
• Matt said Type 135 is "in 2024–25". 
  • 2024/2025 significantly earlier than previously communicated and predicted.  Matt did mention elsewhere in the interview that their product launches are still on schedule, even though production ramp isn't.  But the schedule loosely said in the past has been Type 133 (sedan) in 2023, Type 134 (small SUV) in 2025, and Type 135 in 2026.  If Type 135 could be developed and released in parallel with 133 and 134, then it could be possible it releases in that time frame.  Those assumptions can make sense since the vehicles use different development teams (Hethel vs Lotus Technology), and launching Type 135 as a sports car won't cannibalize sales from the others. 
• Type 135 will definitely not be a replacement for an Elise type of car, where it's very small and cheap.  "I hope it's an area somebody else will pick up. If I'm totally honest, there just isn't the margin in those cars for what we are investing in product development."

Big news from that release date estimate.  Hopefully it wasn't a misspeak.

[NedaSay]

I don't think it is. We have to bear in mind that LHQ( hethel) is not in charge of the development of T132, T133 and T134. LTGW (Wuhan), LTCC( Coventry) and LTIC (Rauheim) are doing it with assistance from CEVT (Gothenburg) and Geely R&D (Shanghai) I assume LHQ  will assume "final validation" testing at HTT if only for the sake of communication and marketing purposes. Which means  LHQ engineering and design staff are pretty much free to tackle Type 135 and Type 136 ( in collaboration with Alpine) There again, considering they have done a lot of the heavy lifting already, for all intent and purposes, the chassis specs are frozen, Things are set to move pretty quickly  Type 135 and 136 are set to share chassis, only the battery pack will cause it to vary.  

Which means for us that Lotus is going to be in the news pretty soon again with Type 132 going on sale in China and Europe imminently. They the unveil in type 133.  The engineering team can't do anything about the Emira's production slow ramp up... However they still have some work on Future Emira variants (Cup and GT) Then again specs are frozen and Gavan Kershaw and his team are probably taking their time defining the final attributes on behalf of Lotus Advanced Performance

 

[KusaKusa]

Great post. Alpine mentioned in interviews a few months ago that 2022 will finalize the "platform and technological solutions we will use to produce our cars" and Lotus said that the design review to Matt was completed around halfway through the year. 2-3 years seems like a short amount of time to finish development and hit production, but yeah a lot of specs and development seem to have been front loaded with the LEVA project and Alpine, and I'm sure the Emira will be leveraged for the passenger portion of the tub and the front subframe. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned the Emira didn't have a very long development time either.

Is there any news or rumors out about Type 136? I know it's likely it will be one of the other LEVA configurations if it exists, maybe more of a 911 competitor or GT.

[NedaSay]

It is not official yet because Alpine is taking their sweet time with it. From what I understand, Type 136 will be Lotus "version" of the Alpine... Both brands are getting a model out of that deal, and that car is not Type 135. Lotus will provide Alpine with the chassis and propulsion system and loom, Alpine will do its own design but I expect the dimensions to be similar if not identical  think Toyota Supra and BMW Z4. In terms of size I expect it to be A110/Boxster not 911. It will compete with the upcoming Porsche electric sportcar which is Boxster class.  

Type 135 from the teaser looks to be Esprit class as I expect it to get pretty much as much tech as possible from Eletre and Evija which would mean an evolved but detuned Evija propulsion system or a repackaged Eletre propulsion system with an Evolved Evija battery pack. most importantly it is a loom transfer, Will they use the Evija Loom which was entirely bespoke or the Emira Loom which was engineered for mass production. Also Type 135 could have a RWD version and an 4WD.

Lets not forget Evija is still moving forward and the car may get another (topless?) version.

[Il fenomino]

11 hours ago, KusaKusa said:

Is there any news or rumors out about Type 136? I know it's likely it will be one of the other LEVA configurations if it exists, maybe more of a 911 competitor or GT.

That would be a very interesting car for me. So I hope there will be news soon

[NedaSay]

Lotus has been very quiet on the development of their sport cars  ever since they made the LEVA announcement and the tie up with Alpine. But we know the architecture is ready so they would be fully in the tooling engineering and parts procurement right now.

The fact of the matter is, they want to focus fully on the visible part of the iceberg, Emira is still ramping  up, Eletre launch is imminent, Evija is still not with customers, and Type 133 unveil is also imminent. The marketing, communication and PR departments have never been this busy ever. Same can be said about Q.A, production and sales and I don't think Lotus did scale effort quite acccordingly. Trying to handle global sales directly is not easy and I think they have realized it, so they have to get a good handle on that. Engineering is continuing at pace so the cars will be delivered on time or thereabout sourcing permitting.

I think the electric sport cars are a few years away