The Slave Cylinder failed... or wait what's going on here

[Wanderor Cross]

Okay so as the title implies I'm getting confused, let's set the stage here.

Land Rover Series 2a Clutch Slave Cylinder put on in November 2021

Wildwood Clutch Master Cylinder put on about 2 months ago

I took the car out last night and had some fun, car seemed fine. Driving home no issues until I decided to finally try brake boosting for once. I never do this so it's a little new to me but I applied the brake some while keeping speed and built a little boost then let off and did a pull from 2nd to 3rd. Seemed fine, I can see why people do it but I thought nothing more of it then I went to shift and the pedal felt like it had a dead spot or a lack of normal pressure from start to finish.

I was almost home so I pulled in, unable to shift into any gear thinking great the trans hates me,  but with the clutch pedal feeling like it has a dead spot so I thought the slave died. I got under the car and I swore I saw fluid...

So this morning I pull the slave but I can't find any issues or fluid leaks.
The master is full, I check the line no issues and great pressure coming out the line.

I looked in the bell housing and I see what I'm guessing are clutch disk fibers all over... It's like pet hair so I start cleaning everything up the best I can, make progress and then get back to checking the slave, again I can't find any fluid from the leak or signs of leaks. I see the metal line looks kinked (my car came with the stainless line) I check it and while trying to remove it the line breaks... I can clearly see where it started leaking when it broke vs before so while I think it was a restriction I still can't find a failure point or leak.

I test the slave and it's full of fluid and moves freely and no signs of issues inside it...

I'm lost here, but then to add to all this the trans shifts fine off and when I start the car just now (cold start since last night) no popping from the exhaust at all it sounds great. Usually every time I start the car it pops and sounds a little like a misfire until I've driven it like 500 feet I just wrote it off as being a quirk of the car (I've replaced the coil packs, plugs, gotten Magnacore wires and run fuel system cleaner through it a few times it never throws codes so that's how I came to that conclusion)

It just doesn't make sense, the starting thing could be a fluke but right now I need to find the correct issue and frankly I'm not sure if it's a bad line, a slave issue or maybe a clutch issue...

Edited July 24, 2022 by Wanderor Cross
clean up

[Erikl]

When you put it back together, watch the slave while some one else operates the clutch.  I have a bad feeling its clutch, how many miles on the clutch?

[Wanderor Cross]

Sadly I just don't know since I bought the car used and the prior owner didn't have a lot of paperwork.

However the line has been replaced, the system bled and the car will not shift once running and the pedal feels wrong but when off I can put it in gear, start it and she moves while in the air... so I am include to agree the clutch is toast. Never had one fail quite like this but okay.

So now to go through threads and see just how good the factory clutch is, look at aftermarket options and since I have to pull the trans this seems like a great time to pull the motor as well and do cam belts and such and since everything will be out I should redo the transmission so I need to look into what upgrades exist for it to live happy at the 600HP Range.
I already have one car project going and another almost finished outside of fuel pump, interior and radio setup and tuning but clearly this means I have more to do... yayayaya

[Erikl]

I am not sure there are any trans options for 600 hp using the stock gear box. 

Actually the GTO upgrade kit was designed and is used on GT40 replicas with big torquey murican V8s.  Probably a work for a while 🙂

 

[Wanderor Cross]

I'm probably not going to hit that mark but I figured over building would be the best, I keep hearing this transmission is used in GT40 kits but I keep avoiding looking because I'll want one of those to 😅

Guess I'm going to have to start looking for those groups.

[Wanderor Cross]

After reading through a few threads here on the Clutch options with SJ or JAE I have gotten some pricing from SJ but JAE is not replying sadly. While Mike recommends JAE at this point I don't know the pricing or if they have the clutch and the input shaft for the trans in stock. I also wanted to get new seals for the trans, new synchro's etc since I will be in there I might as well handle all that. I have called and emailed but I am not having any luck. At this point if I don't hear anything by the end of the day I will have to go with SJ's offering as I need to get this ordered and shipping as soon as possible as that is the longest part of the process at this point.

[mike_sekinger]

I would still wait on JAE, plus you won`t have the obscene import duties that you will incur importing from UK.

I would also echo the comments from Erikl, you are not going to be able to use the UN1 at power levels upwards of 550bhp.  That is of course ignoring actually getting that power reliably out of the 918, which takes some doing.

[Wanderor Cross]

Beyond the Catless Downpipes, EGR Removal and Water/Meth I don't plan to have you tune for anything else. The way the car feels now with the supposed tune it has on it from Johan it feels nice so I don't really expect to get above 500 with it I just like to over build things so I don't have to redo them later. My goal for this car is fun and handling as I have a fast drag car and a purpose built racer.

 

I just hate redoing work because I took a shortcut the first time and this is certainly a car I don't want to do that with.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Wanderor Cross
Clean up

[Wanderor Cross]

Alright so I decided to go with the SJ Upgraded clutch but I also purchased the JAE Input shaft upgrade.

Both JAE and SJ were great after I was able to speak with JAE (My car of course picked the time when their Lotus guy went on vacation to fail and that was the delay in communication, they were very honest and helpful) and both Steve and Joe felt I should leave the trans alone unless I planned on really going through it, since I have 0 issues out of it currently I should just keep taking excellent care of it and if I start having issues think about rebuilding then.
So for once I was talked out of doing more work I may just get this done in a weekend after all lol.

The reason I went with the SJ Uprated clutch was mainly price, my power levels and I knew I wanted more parts so if I am going to order from over seas I might as well do a big order. Getting everything I needed, clutch, seals, extra parts and all I was still 400 under the cost of the JAE Twin disc and while I have no doubt it is better my car didn't slip or have any issues as it was currently and I doubt the tune and water/meth will push it past the SJ Uprated level then which is really it's max goal and I then want to focus on the best suspension and braking possible along with just some gauge cluster and interior tweaks so it just seemed like the smart choice.

But this means since I am coming in under budget with not rebuilding the trans I can get back to my digital AIM cluster project sooner... as soon as I figure out this 3d printer I bought to make replacement gauge cluster plastics... But I will create a thread for that when I get to it.

Hopefully next weekend I can replace the clutch and have the car back on the road as I have missed driving it.
 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Wanderor Cross

[Erikl]

Watching with interest - 

If you come up with a plug and play solution on the dash I may see if  you can print an extra.  The Aim dash are really neat!

 

Curious what is involved with the input shaft upgrade?

[Wanderor Cross]

I will take some pictures on the swap and input shaft. I am replacing all the seals and pins and such because I swear either the trans input shaft seal or the engine rear main is slowly leaking and this is the time to do it anyway so perfect time to show of JAE's input shaft upgrade which with this one it is just the front shaft you don't have to pull the trans apart is how Joe Described it to me so I figured this was a good compromise with myself for not pulling the trans apart like I originally wanted to.
Here is the link to it:
http://www.jaeparts.com/product/uprated-input-shaft-for-citroen-transaxle/

On the AIM dash I completely agree, they make a very nice looking product and my gauges are not all happy esp the Speedo it no longer works and the oil pressure gauge scared the hell out of me when I first bought the car. But I think, if done right it can look quite good with the 97n style dash. I am not sure on the newer models with that dash change but I am excited to see if I am right... I thought about doing the Speedhut gauges like I did with my FD RX7 when I swapped to an LS but as much as I like them the cost for the Lotus custom ones was actually right in line with the AIM unit so why not give that a run.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Wanderor Cross
Added link to JAE Shaft

[drdoom]

Didn't Lotus themselves upgrade to a twin-disc clutch during the V-8 series?

[Erikl]

The input shaft upgrade you posted is for the Citroen trans on the earlier cars.  You have the Renault UN1 trans - Wrong link?

Yes really curious now how this dash project comes together - love what they have done on the Elise dash swaps.

Oh I know that FD I think.  Was a beast!

 

 

[Wanderor Cross]

33 minutes ago, Erikl said:

The input shaft upgrade you posted is for the Citroen trans on the earlier cars.  You have the Renault UN1 trans - Wrong link?

Yes really curious now how this dash project comes together - love what they have done on the Elise dash swaps.

Oh I know that FD I think.  Was a beast!

 

 

I must have but Joe recommended the one I bought to me but now I am going to go recheck lol.

41 minutes ago, drdoom said:

Didn't Lotus themselves upgrade to a twin-disc clutch during the V-8 series?

Yes Lotus did a factory twin disc on most V8's which mine has but this one, according to SJ, is better than the factory one.

So I confirmed on the purchase order so i just linked the wrong one, that is my fault.

[Wanderor Cross]

Alright,

Have not updated in a while but at this point Everything is back together for the most part, I just need to finishing bolting down the Trans mounts but I have a few minor questions.

So with the Axles I noticed that they had Silicone Sealant on the ends and I was not sure why they did that. I replaced the seals and I did go ahead and put some silicone on the new pins but is there a reason they do this?
Is it just to keep them in place or can they actually leak trans fluid?

Otherwise the car is ready to be back on the road and for a much needed bath but all the new upgrades are in and I even went ahead and replaced a few other things along the way to make my life easier and things nicer. At this point I would like to believe I have a solid set up now although I still will never launch it hard. I will upload some pictures but I didn't take to many along the way.

Also I got to inspect my old clutch and yeah that inner disc had started coming apart with pieces missing it looks like it was indeed the original AP Racing Factory clutch so my new one will be a nice upgrade for it.

I want to thank SJ motorsports and JAE for all the help and information along the way, I would not have gotten this completed without the great support and products from them.

[jonwat]

8 hours ago, Wanderor Cross said:

put some silicone on the new pins but is there a reason they do this?
Is it just to keep them in place or can they actually leak trans fluid?

Yes, the oil can seep along the splines, into the roll pins & out of the ends. 

[Wanderor Cross]

So everything is together and seems great I bled the slave again it feels great and I can shift when the cars off but when running I can't.

I then turned it off, put it in gear and started it and it moves, push the clutch in and no luck it just stays engaged.

I checked the slave no leaks and the fork is on correctly and working as much as I can test but hand... Not sure what to think it's a new slave and I replaced the master earlier as well but I guess the slave could be going bad again but that's a little odd.

Any advice?

[Erikl]

can you have some one sit and push the clutch pedal while you watch the slave?  Such a bummer, all this work.  You are close though!

[Wanderor Cross]

So I've had it apart looking and honestly I think the rod is slightly bent.

I'm going to try and find or make a replacement tomorrow as the slave definitely looks good I even removed the boot it looks good and it's moving so either it's somehow damaged and not moving all the way out the rod bent some...

Otherwise I'm still confused, which to be fair is probably true on a daily basis but for other reasons 😆

[Erikl]

One time I had a clutch problem and it turned out the clutch arm had fatigued, cracked and was flexing, so the slave woudl push and the arm would flex and not move the clutch.  Any chance the clutch activating arm could be flexing?

[Wanderor Cross]

When I had everything apart I cleaned and inspected it. I didn't see any issues with the fork but I guess it's possible but at this point I don't think it's damaged.

[jonwat]

10 hours ago, Wanderor Cross said:

put it in gear and started it and it moves, push the clutch in and no luck it just stays engaged.

Have you checked that both master & slave cylinder pistons are moving through their maximum amount of travel in order to release the clutch? 🤔

[Wanderor Cross]

I just put a Wilwood master on a few months ago, pressure feels great. I replaced the slave the beginning of last year and would be surprised if it has 5000 miles on it.

Last night I took the dust cover off to inspect it and it looks great, but as mentioned I think the rod may be bent.

I also bled everything again the pedal feels great so I'm really hoping that rod is the issue.

[jonwat]

3 hours ago, Wanderor Cross said:

just put a Wilwood master on a few months ago, pressure feels great. I replaced the slave the beginning of last year and would be surprised if it has 5000 miles on it.

Are the bores & strokes the correct sizes? If the master doesn't expel enough fluid into the slave to force the the piston to push the release arm out enough to fully release the clutch then that  could well be the problem.

Remember,  you've fitted a Land Rover slave, a Wilwood master & a JAE uprated clutch. Do you know they all work together?   🤔

[Wanderor Cross]

The Wilwood is actually just slightly bigger I believe it was .62 and the factory was .60.

The Landover slave did use the factory rod from when I removed the failed Lotus one.

I bought a hardened push rod that's a little thicker and I'm going to cut it down and adjust the length I guess this will be a good time to test but it did work with the AP twin disk but it's possible enough has changed to require a length correction.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Wanderor Cross
grammar