Rear rotor rubbing on bracket, already have a shim on either side of the rotor. Is it ok to put both shims behind the rotor?

[DrieStone]

My Esprit is almost roadworthy again, but I was having some rubbing in the rear. Sounded like brakes, other than usually something like that would stop if you applied the brakes (and this doesn't). Ordered new rotors and pads, but when I got under the car I see that the rotor is rubbing the inside of the caliper bracket. Looks like it would take about the width of a shim to center the rotor in the bracket.

I figured I must have put the shim in the wrong side of the rotor when reinstalling, but after pulling everything apart I had a shim on each side of the rotor. My monkey brain thinks I should move the second shim onto the other side (two shims) to make up the difference and call it a day, but I feel like I'm missing something.

Both the Service Notes and the Service Parts manuals aren't very detailed here, so I'm not sure if this is acceptable or not.

I did try swapping the rotor, but the new one hits the bracket too.

[DrieStone]

I ended up trying it this way, but the rotor started rubbing on the bracket on the other side (although at the top, vs on the bottom earlier). I don't think this is a run out issue because the rotor doesn't wobble when I spin it (just eyeball on the gap in the bracket).

Somehow the bracket is tweaked. I took a flapwheel to the lower mounting surface of the bracket, and took maybe 1/2 mm off and that fixed my issue.

I checked and rechecked that everything was sitting flush since it seemed pretty extreme to remove material, but everything sits right now and the gap between the rotor and the bracket is pretty even at the top and bottom now.

[drdoom]

Might be wise to consider whether the transmission output shaft bearings are ok. Seems quite unlikely the caliper bracket would be tweaked out of shape. Check for in/out movement at the output shaft housing, might need to disconnect a halfshaft for the purpose.

Cheers

[DrieStone]

Good thought. My scraping is back and it has to be that output. Where can I find a parts diagram for the output shafts? Looks like it may be fairly easy to do a bearing swap?

[drdoom]

The go-to guy on all things GG transaxle is Harry Limmens, known in this community as @dsvitesse1. He has advised the output bearings are long NLA, offers modded housings with alternative bearings, IIRC. I'd take a hard look at the existing before going that route, given cost and difficulty , but Harry is a good guy with whom to do business and supports the Citroen equipped Esprit faithfully. FWIW.

[rgh0]

Does an yone have the manufacturers name and number for the orginal output shaft bearing that is NLA ?. 

 

cheers

Rohan  

 

 

[jonwat]

2 hours ago, rgh0 said:

Does an yone have the manufacturers name and number for the orginal output shaft bearing

click

[rgh0]

Yes I know the Lotus part number but that does not help much when eveyrone says it is NLA. What I want is the manufacturers name and part number for that double row ball bearing so I can do my own research for suitable alternatives that can be fitted if the original dimensioned bearing cannot be found without machining the housing by using a suitable sleeve.

 

cheers

Rohan

[910Esprit]

Its a readily available expensive Citroen part - You can get the real part number from as Citroen DS parts manual available online (which also usefully provides the bearing dimensions).

I replaced it with an inexpensive cam roller angular contact bearing of the same size (looking at SJs catalogue, this is what Steve seems to provide too)

NB Jonathan - If you have any shims outboard of the disc, I believe that's your problem.  All shims are fitted inboard (generally 2 on all the gearboxes I have pulled apart)     

 

[rgh0]

Ok so tell me some bearing part numbers from the original bearing manufacturers which is supposedly NLA

[910Esprit]

 TBH I find your email a little terse, but I'll put that down to your English - The number is ZC 9620 267 U its 30x72x23.8 and readily available in that size, based on 5 minutes on Google

[rgh0]

Thank you.  I was politely asking for an answer on the original bearing manufacturer data as neither Lotus or Citroen actually made this bearing and I apologise if my responses appeared terse when data not related to my question was given and I asked further questions

Interesting that others believe it is NLA and but it appears to be easily supplied. However you now quote a Citroen bearing number not the orginal manufacture bearing name and number which is what I am looking for but I gess I can start searching on that

did some searching

From  photo of an original bearing being sold under the citroen part numuber it appears to be a SKF 30208 J2.  However the dimensions dont match what you quoted and its a tapered roller not a double row ball bearing ? So the data still apears to be inconsistent but I will continue looking

 

 

cheers

Rohan

 

6 minutes ago, 910Esprit said:

ZC 9620 267 U

 

[910Esprit]

Thanks Rohan!   I'm confident in the dimensions (from the Citroen parts catalogue) as I used these to source a satisfactory alternative, which is currently being used on my car).   NB There are a number of DS/SM specialists in Europe that I am convinced will have a suitable part on the shelf (Including Harry Martens).  SJS Sportscars also had an alternative listed when I last looked.   However, I suspect you are probably correct that the specific SKF manufactured item may be currently NLS.  

NB Its definitely a double row angular contact bearing (I.E balls not rollers)  - I'm assuming we are talking about the bearing in the driveshaft housing, not the bearing that supports the diff? 

Ahh - A 30208 is the diff bearing - This has nothing to do with supporting or positioning the rear disks (The originals were actually a Polish brand bearing for some unknown reason) 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by 910Esprit

[drdoom]

I apologize for my error in regards to availability, should have checked before posting my advice. Harry does supply an alternative solution, it was wrong to infer that to mean the OEM as NLA.

Regards

[DrieStone]

14 hours ago, drdoom said:

The go-to guy on all things GG transaxle is Harry Limmens, known in this community as @dsvitesse1. He has advised the output bearings are long NLA, offers modded housings with alternative bearings, IIRC. I'd take a hard look at the existing before going that route, given cost and difficulty , but Harry is a good guy with whom to do business and supports the Citroen equipped Esprit faithfully. FWIW.

I’m going to get under the car next week and I’ll see if there’s any play in the output shaft, but to your earlier point, I can’t imagine anything else causing this issue. 
 

I am certainly aware of Harry, and he was going to be the first person I reached out to once I have more info. 
 

I thought if the bearings were easy to find, I’d just order a set in preparation, but I’ll wait. Thanks!

[rgh0]

It looks like the original output shaft double row ball bearing used by Lotus to carry the upper drive shaft longitudinal loads was an unknown "Polish" bearing. Someone surely must have taken a photo of it that shows the maker and number when pulling apart a transmission?

I am also looking to source this bearing or an alternative before I need to replace them. due to wear causing excessive axial float in the driveshaft that also acts as the upper suspension link.

SJS list this bearing as available (others list it as NLA) but I am reluctant to buy no name brand bearings, has any one bought this bearing from SJS ?

 

 

cheers

Rohan

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by rgh0

[jonwat]

4 hours ago, rgh0 said:

due to wear causing excessive axial float in the driveshaft that also acts as the upper suspension link

In the Europa, which was of the same design as S1 & S2 Esprits but had a Renault transaxle, axial float was controlled by shims fitted between the bearing face & the drive shaft. To remove excessive float shims were added until the roll pins were a tight fit when reinserted.

[drdoom]

We should bear in mind that Jonathan's car is a Turbo, in which the transaxle bearing no longer carries axial loads due to the addition of an upper transverse link in the rear suspension. I'd be wary of quality in regard to any replacement bearing nonetheless.

[910Esprit]

6 hours ago, rgh0 said:

It looks like the original output shaft double row ball bearing used by Lotus to carry the upper drive shaft longitudinal loads was an unknown "Polish" bearing. Someone surely must have taken a photo of it that shows the maker and number when pulling apart a transmission?

I still think you may be getting confused.  The taper roller bearing that supports the diff (30208) was a Polish bearing, which is a very common size and can be replaced by an SKF equivalent - Nobody would rate the Polish version above an SKF replacement!  The original double row annular bearing in the drive shaft housing, which supports the output shafts/discs was originally manufactured by SKF (I believe) and may now be NLA from SKF and is an unusual size in automotive applications, but there are loads of other alternatives available (I used NSK).   

As DrDoom mentions the loads on an S1/S2 are greater than the later models - As the driveshaft acts as a suspension link.  However, if you source a replacement from a reputable manufacturer, I would like to think they would specify acceptable axial loads for the bearing.   I doubt it would be an issue as that's the whole point of an annual contact bearing... 

     

Edited July 29, 2023 by 910Esprit

[910Esprit]

On 29/07/2023 at 11:22, rgh0 said:

Someone surely must have taken a photo of it that shows the maker and number when pulling apart a transmission?

Just had a look through my parts.   Driveshaft bearing (The double row annular) is  a French manufacture SKF bearing 442056A, which seems unknown to the internet...    I have a number of these and most are actually unmarked, so presumably they were a 'special' for Citroen, which is a common theme in this gearbox 

[rgh0]

Thanks for that information.  i will start seraching for those or an equivalent 

 

cheers

Rohan

[rgh0]

Cannot find that bearing even in the 1000+ page SKF catalogue !

If possible can you measure the critical dimensions so i can broaden my search for equivalents and post a couple of photos of the SKF bearing.

i.e. ID of inner race, OD of outer race, width of inner and outer races,  radial depth of the inner and outer race flanges

 

cheers

Rohan

 

 

[910Esprit]

@rgh0  Its all in the parts catalogue!   Citroën DS/ID and XM Web-Site (citroen-ds-id.com)

I replaced mine based on the dimensions, so I know they are correct

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by 910Esprit

[rgh0]

thanks

[rgh0]

So from the list of multiple manuals in the link posted I presume the data is in a DS manual as this used the same 5 speed gearbox as the SM at least in regards to these bearings ?

I will dig into the DS manuals to find the reference to the bearing dimensions.  

 

later ......

 

Appears its basic dimensions are 30mm ID 72mm OD and 23.8mm width.  By the way it is incorrectly described by everyone including these citroen manuals as a "double row ball bearing" when in fact it is a "double row ANGULAR contact ball bearing" which is a vital difference when considering the thrust loads it carries 

 

cheers

Rohan