Is electric really the answer?

[KAS-118]

Interesting trial that's going to start in Milton Keynes - where the intention is to try and balance 'peaks' and throughs in the demand for Electricity. https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/1766/milton-keynes-electric-car-owners-invited-charging-technology-trial

In one method your Electric Car is used to store Electricity and that is then sold back to the grid when required in peak times. 

[KAS-118]

This is the 'other side' of the Electric Coin - the Hydrogen Fuel Cell.

Not sure why the Toyota Miria is only available in Hawaii or California? https://www.kbb.com/articles/reviews/2020-toyota-mirai-first-review/

However, the comparison of this with a BEV is quite interesting:

Headline figures for the Toyota are $58,550, 312 mile range, 5-minute re-fill; 157bhp and 247lb-ft torque.

That compares with a Tesla 3:

• Long Range $48,990, 348 mile range (WLTP) - but real-world is probably more like 270-280 miles ; 346bhp and 376lb-ft; or
• Performance $56,990 329 mile range (WLTP) 450bhp and 471lb-ft 

Of course the 'refill' depends upon the charging facilities you've got - but using Tesla's Supercharging Network you can 'fill' from 10% to 80% in 20 mins 

[C8RKH]

https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-main-problem-with-teslas-supercharger-network-1840110802

[KAS-118]

Odd - never seen anything about those kind of queues in the UK at EV Charging points?  However, I have experienced queues at Petrol Stations https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17551558 

Given that last year there were more EV Charging points then Petrol Stations https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-has-more-ev-charging-stations-petrol-stations and that trend has continued with more Petrol Stations closing https://forecourttrader.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/18471/Forecourt_closures_reach_100_as_coronavirus_hits_sales_and_staff.html and https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/independent-petrol-stations-fight-survival/  - which is NOT just all down to Corona Virus https://www.alfapower.co.uk/the-death-of-the-petrol-station/ and the significant increase in funding for on street charging points https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/environment/2020/05/11/on-street-ev-charge-points-receive-funding-boost I think the probability is that Filling Up with petrol is likely to become more and more inconvenient. Indeed, on a number of occasions I've had to fill up I've got to a Petrol station only to find its closed as the tanker is in - meaning that I have to go even further out of my way - and adding more time to the 'refill' period.

Here's some various methods https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/05/electric-car-ways-to-charge

Of course - most electrical charging will be done at the persons home in any event - as despite what some 'self-proclaimed' experts allege - its really  not so difficult. Fortunately, not everyone has a 'can't do' attitude. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[Neal H]

When they produce an EV that will do a REAL 300 miles and costs less then £30k I’ll seriously consider one as a daily driver.

In reality I (like 90% of other people) need a reasonably nice, practical vehicle to get me from A to B. It doesn’t need to do 0-60 in under 4 seconds. 8 seconds is fine. Thanks very much.

[KAS-118]

I'm sure 90% of the people don't need to do 0-60 in under 4 seconds - but then 90% of trips that people make are nowhere near 300 miles either.

Indeed - according to these figures the average trip is just over 12 miles https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/jan/14/average-uk-car-mileage-falls-again-on-back-of-higher-petrol-prices and the most updated ones confirm it as only 8.4 miles https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-car-journey-uk

However, its odd that you spelt out a specification for your 'required' car - that your Elise doesn't fit......and certainly not a type that 90% of the people own.

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[Neal H]

Which is why I won’t buy an Elise as a daily driver. It’s a pure toy.

You also can’t discount that remaining 10% of journeys, where range becomes an issue. My daily driver is the automotive equivalent of a domestic appliance, I need it to have that level of convenience if it’s going to appeal. I need to jump in and go without thinking too much about it.

Sorry,  but if EV’s are to have broad appeal, then that’s how they will have to be. Give me 300 miles and I think the tipping point is reached. 500 miles and it’s a no-brainer, but either way, I won’t spend £50k on it and neither will the vast majority.

Edited to add:

I firmly believe that in the next 10 years this will be achieved (via battery or hydrogen), but they’re not there yet.

[Bibs]

I've been looking at a plug in hybrid for the daily. Most of my journeys are short so would be pure electric as they have about 30 miles range but then for long journeys there's an engine. I read a long term review of the Ionic and the real world MPG was 82 which is good and tax is cheap. 

 

[KAS-118]

1 hour ago, Neal H said:

Which is why I won’t buy an Elise as a daily driver. It’s a pure toy.

You also can’t discount that remaining 10% of journeys, where range becomes an issue. My daily driver is the automotive equivalent of a domestic appliance, I need it to have that level of convenience if it’s going to appeal. I need to jump in and go without thinking too much about it.

Sorry,  but if EV’s are to have broad appeal, then that’s how they will have to be. Give me 300 miles and I think the tipping point is reached. 500 miles and it’s a no-brainer, but either way, I won’t spend £50k on it and neither will the vast majority.

Edited to add:

I firmly believe that in the next 10 years this will be achieved (via battery or hydrogen), but they’re not there yet.

So, for you, you're happy to spend money on 2 cars, 1 that (I'm taking a guess) gets used a lot less than the other. I'm n to knocking you for that - that's your life style decision.

However, when I owned 2 cars - it was a complete pain in the b*m. I then realised that it was better to have a car that was  fun  to drive, had a reasonable amount of character and could fulfil almost all the trips I had to do, and on the very rare occasions it didn't,  I'd hire something.

So, personally I prefer to spend £50-70k on 1 car, rather than an Elise at £40k and an EV at £30k.

The 300 mile range is genuinely here (according to WLTP) 

People (and I don't mean you) complain there's no space to charge an EV (but as demonstrated above there are options even if you don't have your own drive) but are quite happy to say they have 1 car for this purpose, 1 car for that purpose and another for something else. Well in a lost of city areas and suburbs, parking space for 3 cars(or even 2)  just isn't available - but every house I'm aware of does have an electrical supply. 

As for the need to do over 300 miles - during that time most driver would, or should, take a break - the AA recommend every 2 hour, but even if you doubled that then - you are unlikely to have exceeded 300 miles. Frankly, the need to 'recharge' applies as much for the driver as it does the car. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[KAS-118]

1 hour ago, Bibs said:

I've been looking at a plug in hybrid for the daily. Most of my journeys are short so would be pure electric as they have about 30 miles range but then for long journeys there's an engine. I read a long term review of the Ionic and the real world MPG was 82 which is good and tax is cheap. 

 

Out of interest how long do you think you're going to keep it?

I don't know how many miles you're going to do in it per year - but say 6,000k - well a new car is probably good for 60k - 80k, if  not more, before you probably need to get rid of it. So that's 10-13 years ; bringing you up to 2033.

Time will tell - but I think the infrastructure is going to be very different by then, and indeed before then. Maybe - making a big capital outlay, its better to keep what' you've got - and see what's on offer next year, or indeed the year after.

I say this as someone I currently work with in Sweden looked at a Hybrid and borrowed one for a period of time. He found the electric range to short, and the fact you had to end up filling up with petrol a pain - so he ended up ordering an Audi E-Tron. Although, I understand that in Sweden a lot of cars are hired/rented rather than bought - so he'll change after 2-years. 

[C8RKH]

I'm with @Neal H  but I'm happy to spend money on 4 cars and looking for a fifth! Don't find it a pain in the bum at all, can be a pain in the wallet though lol and more so when I end up washing all five (I usually do my sons car too!)

I don't think you'll find people who have multiple cars complaining they have no space for a charger. That's just not right. People who have multiple cars usually (but not always) have a drive/garage to park cars on so they can add a charger for sure.

The issue as you say is within towns and cities, especially where you have terraced housing, HMO's and flats.  This is a significant proportion of homes in the towns and cities and you only have to go there and try to navigate the residential streets to see the problem first hand and often residents, even though they have a parking permit, struggle to just park. There is no getting away from the fact that these areas will present a challenge for charging post installers, DNO's, residents etc. The bizarre fact is that it is these people who probably have the most to gain from having a BEV. Having an electrical supply is NOT the same as having the opportunity to install or gain access to a charger. That POV is as nebulous as the one that sees owners with space for multiple cars saying they have no space for a charger.

@Bibs - The Ionic seems to have good reviews, is reasonably priced and the one person I know who has one is very pleased with it. If you get a grey look no-one will see it on your drive either as it will just blend right in. ;)  I was so tempted to "quote" your post but see, I can behave like a grown up sometimes (and when not loaded with wine!) 

[KAS-118]

Providing something what isn't there is always a challenge - but not all challenges are that difficult to solve - a bit like deciding which of your 4/5 cars is going tome parked in the most protected location and/or most accessible.....

[Neal H]

Indeed I am prepared to own two cars, plus a motorbike.

The trouble with owning a Lotus is that once you’ve done it your perception of “fun” car is raised to another level and you realise that a fast hatchback no longer cuts it. I owned a Lotus 2-11 alongside a Focus RS as my daily, but the Focus felt like I was driving a truck next to the Lotus and once the novelty value of the acceleration wore off, I was quickly bored with it.

Have you owned a Lotus? If so, I think you’ll understand.

I fully accept that the vast majority of car buyers are not like me, in fact the vast majority of car buyers are not car enthusiasts at all, they just want a nice, practical, good value vehicle to move them and their family about, so I think my argument still stands.

The point @C8RKH raises about inner city parking is a valid one. My brother lived in Oxford. He had to buy an annual parking permit to park on the street, but it did not guarantee him a parking spot. Often, all the spots would be taken when he arrived home and he’d have to find somewhere else to park. The council issue far more permits than spaces! Nice little additional earner for them. The point is that for city use, the whole infrastructure is going to have to change rapidly to accommodate widespread home charging availability.

[C8RKH]

That's not a "decision" to be honest - My two Hethel built toys go in the garage. The other cars are parked where the driver wants to leave them.

But the point I am making is that THIS CHALLENGE (installation of, and access to, charging points)  in this scenario ( in densely populated areas) WILL BE, or rather is,. difficult to solve. It will not be done quickly, it will take several years. I struggle to understand why many people (especially in the press etc) cannot understand the physical, engineering and structural challenges that this solution will need to overcome.

[KAS-118]

Because maybe its not such a challenge as you think it is!?

The below are public use ones; not Private.

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by KAS-118

[C8RKH]

KAS, that map proves nothing other than the "density" of charging points that would be required to service London's needs is woefully inadequate for a rapid scaling of BEV uptake.

There are I believe a total of 8088 installed charging points inside the M25 (Greater London). 

Compare that to the fact that there are:

8,908,000 people in the same area.

3,280,000 households.

2,560,000 cars registered in London

So, that is 0.002 charging points per household and 0.003 charging points per car! 

In total in the UK there are just over 36,000 charging stations installed I believe. There are 38.7m cars in the UK and c27m households.  Great coverage! 

There are c9200 charging locations (multi chargers) in the UK and they have been growing for the last few years at the rate of 1,000 locations per year.

So to be blunt, despite your enthusiasm and constant hype, the number of charging points is frankly a drop in the ocean compared to what will be needed to service a whole scale move to BEV's.  I do think people are totally under estimating the size of the challenge and it is bordering on it being criminally dismissal. I find this quite frightening as this complete lack of understanding of the size and scale of the challenge is disproportionally influencing national and local policy!

 

In densely populated urban areas as we have explained, the issues are:

1. Access - on a packed and overcrowded residential street it is the law of the jungle so the fastest get the parking space they want, the rest fight and lose. You cannot rely on people cooperating and MOVING there car when they have charged it to allow someone else access etc.

2. Protection of the chargers from vandalism etc in densely populated, public areas will become an issue that is not as prevailent as it is now - although many current public charging points do get vandalised

3. The upgrade to the DNO infrastructure that will be required to deal with the local "load" generated by such an explosion in power demand in localised areas - currently, the Govt. and DNO's are looking at a bill between £20 - 32 billion to upgrade the electricity infrastructure across the UK to prepare for the large scale adoption of BEV's.  With that size and scale of investment, the issues really turn away from affordability, but to the TIME taken to actually undertake the physical work which will be measured in years, maybe tens of years.

To be clear. I am not saying it is impossible. But we do have  opposing views - yours (and I am paraphrasing) seems to be a more broad "it will happen just accept it" POV. I am trying to come at it from a view of trying to understand the size of the challenge from a DNO, infrastructure, access etc PoV.  We have not even started to think about planning delays and constraints etc.

So yes. It is possible. Of course it is possible. No one is denying that. But I do challenge you apparent PoV that it will just happen and happen quickly. I fundamentally disagree with you on that.

[KAS-118]

1) As stated - those are Public Charging points - most Electric cars are charged at home with private charging points

2) As also evidenced - the 'coverage' was still better than Petrol - and over the year that's probably got even better

3) In a lot of City areas you can't even drive a car if its below a certain Euro Category - so you effectively now have no go zones for older cars

4) The provision of EV Charge Points is one hell of a lot more easier than hydrogen fuel supply

5) As has also been explained - a genuine range of an EV is 250-280 miles; the average journey is say 6 miles - so a person would either only need to recharge say once a month - or, if they charge everyday - for a very short period of time.

6) People are just (or even more) as likely to vandalise your car as they are an EV point - it doesn't stop most people buying cars. The same could have also been said regarding the Boris Bikes, or Parking Meters etc.

7) As a result of 5 - people aren''t going to be charging all at the same time - so this 'massive load' that you predict, really is very unlikely o happen

😎 If you have enough space to park your car, invariably there is enough space to provide a charger to that location - as demonstrated in the Guardian article.

9 ) I'm not sure what you think I'm saying is going to happen 'quickly' at all? There will be  move to more BEV and Hybrids over the next few years - but clearly not everyone is going to switch over night. However, I think the provision of both Home and Public chargers will be able to cope with that demand. Of course - if the Government, Councils and Power Suppliers sit on their hands and do nothing then we might be in trouble.....

[C8RKH]

Kas, Apologies, I do not "get" your response above and maybe some of the other forum members could point out to me what I am missing with your responses.I will try to respond positively and constructively so we all stay friends.

1. I know they were, which is why I gave the FULL figures for completeness and clarity in London for ALL points - you posted that map to prove your point that installing all the charging points needed "would not be such a challenge as I think". My response was to demonstrate to you that your map was inconsequential as the issue was the VOLUME of charging posts that would be needed to allow people to charge at home which I think covers adequately and fully your response to (1) above already. I.e. you are telling us something that actually we had pointed out to you.

2. This is irrelevant as the "coverage being different to petrol" is erroneous as currently people HAVE to go to a petrol station to fill up their car. In the future with BEV's, they will EXPECT to be able to park up at home and charge their BEV in the evening/overnight. This is not an apples for apples comparison in any way shape or form, especially given your response (1) re "most Electric cars are charged at home with private charging points" - respectively, you are shuffling things around to try to make a different point and not being consistent. - to elaborate: Point 1 - you emphasise that BEV will mostly be charged at home and Point 2 you compare PUBLIC (not private at home) charging point coverage to petrol stations. Totally different things in the contexts for each.

3. This is a valid point - but it has NOTHING to do with the points we were discussing. Yet again, it is just something that is put up to deflect.  

4. Irrelevant. We were not discussing in any way Hydrogen - Think about it (as @Bibs has been saying to me re the use of quotes) as a conversation - you are deflecting and diverting and introducing in new things, rather than specifically addressing the points raised. You're drifting more than GFWilliams on the track.

5. Valid observation - however, that person would still want a charging point at home (your point 1) and they may have more than 1 car so it will be used more, or, it may be a "public" charging point so the INFRASTRUCTURE still needs to be updated to handle peak load/draw. You cannot just "whap in a charger" and hope for the best or that it will not be used enough to blow the sub station fuse.

6. Valid observation re vandalism but irrelevant. We were not comparing the likelihood of vandalism to cars v charging points, we were stating that a charging point could have a high propensity to be vandalised and therefore, if a "public" one, it would inconvenience more than just 1 vandalised car owner.

7. Probably. However, you do not build an electrical infrastructure on a whim and a prayer over predicted usage. You have to forecast, plan and build for what you believe the peak load will be etc.  It is precisely because of this level of planning and forethought that we have a very stable Grid and electricity supply in the UK. 

8. Yes and no. Both @Neal H gave you examples of situations were residents CANNOT park their cars even when they have a permit. So your assumption is in fact invalid. Again, go to a densely populated urban area and drive/walk around and you will see cars parked, double parked on roads, sidewalks, pavements, grass anywhere where they can get a space. It is not all nice leafy closes with nice avenues and long drives etc.

9. Your posts are all about how "fast" things are moving and the trends are changing and you come across to me like a one man promotional company for BEV's to be honest (- but if you're such a fan just buy one!). The impression is from your constant responses to articulated points/challenges with links/posts and comments that seem to suggest everything is happening faster and is inevitable etc. So I think you are being a little disingenuous here to be honest. I can also assure you that no one is sitting on their hands re this. But, there really is little or no grasp amongst the public, journalists, the people pushing BEV as they have a vested interest, of just HOW MUCH WORK is going to be needed to get this done and rather than trying to argue moot points, I am genuinely trying to provide an explanation of the wider what, how etc but you just seem to dismiss it as (to paraphrase/put words in your mouth) "here we go, stuck in the past old laggard who doesn't like change".

As an example, one of the things I am leading right now, is the solution design of a National EV Access Network that would provide the backbone infrastructure to allow any BEV from any manufacturer to access any charging point, whether public or private (with the owners permission of course) to recharge the battery and ensure that the right account was debited for any access/energy charges and all controlled by the driver from a single app on their phone, integrated to all EV charging networks. So it's not as if I'm not involved in this stuff. I know I like to have a laugh and a joke on here and to take the piss (stress relief really), but like most people I do also have a serious face too. I just try to save that for work, which I take very seriously.

 

[KAS-118]

1) The Map was used to demonstrate there are numerous Public Charging Points in London on the Street, It therefore follows that if there is a need for them, the provision of additional charges on the street is not necessarily unachievable. 

Yes, there will be the need for private chargers too - as indeed I'm sure most people who own an EV would prefer that. But, if there is a space that is big enough to park a car, then there is a space that is big enough to provide a charging facility too.

2) The proposition that you are advancing is that if you can't charge at home - then the EV is no good. The comparison is that you can't 'reasonably' fuel a petrol engine at home. 

The point again is that those that can recharge at home privately - can with an EV, and those who haven't got a private drive, can charge from on street charges or, in the case, of flats - communal parking chargers. Yes, they may well have to be provided, but they currently are at the moment. Again the issue is not insurmountable.

3) Sorry I disagree - you're saying you can't 'live with' an EV in a city areas because you can't charge it. I'm saying you can charge it - and I'm saying in some city areas you can't live with your older petrol or diesel car because driving them in that area is banned. 

4) This is a discussion about whether electric is the answer. Hydrogen Fuel Cells are electric powered cars - and its therefore legitimate to consider them - and their use in City Areas. For private car use, how you re-fuel them is obviously a concern. There are numerous EV Chargers within 10 miles of me, there is  not one hydrogen fuel supply. Plus, if I go to a BEV I just 'fill-up' at home - what I'm currently unable to do with a Fuel Cell.

Petrol and Diesel, even in Hybrids, will be banned - and therefore the Government will need to make the transition to something else available - and it needs to start doing that now. 

5) Yes, if space is available I'm sure an EV owner wants a point at home, especially as a grant is available - but this point has nothing to do with home charging per se, merely the anticipated load, at anyone time, on the Network.

The point is that not everyone will be charging at the same time - and the on-going trials in Milton Keynes is to use EV's as a temporary storage - so that the demand on the Networks is balanced throughout the day and 'spare' capacity can be stored in them.

Rather than cause overloading of the Network, the theory is EV''s could make it more efficient.

6) Likewise, when someone goes into a Petrol Station and his Girlfriends sits there with a car window open (as I have seen), risking the whole thing going up in flames, its likely to inconvenience a LOT of people https://www.racingpost.com/news/fire-crews-bring-spectacular-petrol-station-blaze-near-fontwell-under-control/379477 .Although sometimes its stopped https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/20/man-soaked-fire-extinguisher-refusing-stop-smoking-petrol-station-10604175/

I regret I find your reasoning a tad too much, clearly vandalism can affect a n umber of people - such as when people vandalise trains - but it doesn't mean that trains are no good and we should all use petrol cars instead. Indeed, post boxes can also be vandalised - should they all be removed?

7) Clearly I agree things need proper planning and research - but see 5, but I see no evidence that we can't currently cope - and things are being planned, things are being researched and capacity is being increased. 

8 ~) ~If you haven't got space to park your car, then you presumable won't have a car - or you'll have to park it somewhere where there is space - meaning that it could have a power supply there. 

9) I note your views. But my view is that you're intent on putting up hurdles which don't really exist in the way you present them. For example, I find it disingenuous to present the argument that EV's are no good as they do not have enough range, are too expensive, go to fast, and are nor practical enough, and you haven't got space to charge them - when that persons Petrol car does not have much more range, costs just as much, is less practicable - so needs a 2nd car (and not all people with 2 or more cars have off road parking either) which therefore costs even more money, 

However, as to the point in costs - well here's the latest bit of news from your Favourite CEO Elon Musk. Seems that they've extended the range, life and reduced the costs - things are moving on in the EV world - aren't they!? 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclusive-teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid-idUSKBN22Q1WC

[C8RKH]

9 minutes ago, KAS-118 said:

But, if there is a space that is big enough to park a car, then there is a space that is big enough to provide a charging facility too.

Kas,

Respectfully, your responses are not all rational nor are they on topic (I'm a fine one to talk I know) . I am very happy for anyone on hear other than you to tell me I am wrong here. Because you'll be biased :)  (I bet @Barrykearley will be the first to tell me lol)

Space on a street is NOT the only consideration for a charging facility. As I explained, there are lots of other considerations.

Your response to point 6 is hysterical or childish. I'm still debating which in my head.

To say if you haven't got the space to park your car then presumably you haven't got a car is, erm, an interesting point of view and makes me think you are not grounded in the reality of life for many not as fortunate as yourself. The point is not everyone who has a car has their own private space (garage, drive, land) to park a car on. Our streets are a war zone when it comes to resident parking in densely populated areas - again @NeilH gave a perfect example of the issue. Your assumption/presumption is just so wrong on so many different levels.

Your last point (9) - where in this "conversation" have I said any of those things? Where have I belittled BEV's etc? You are not responding to the comments I made in THIS conversation, but to other historical comments I have made in other conversations where I am clearly just winding up a fan boy.  For the record, I have NEVER said I do not have the space for a charger - the one thing I do have is space! So don't miss quote me please.

I did give you quite a bit of information, explaining WHY it is not just simply about space on the road and why it is not just easy to get on with it - I think you referred to that as me putting up hurdles. I thought I was providing some detail to support my argument. It's irrelevant I guess as you totally ignored it anyway, instead, bringing in new stuff to the conversation to deflect or divert.

I am trying to be respectful in this conversation. But you are making it hard with the "wise ass" responses at times and silly links. I know, not like me to stay on topic and be serious!

I appreciate a strong defence, it's all part of a healthy debate. But a strong/robust defence needs to have some intelligence applied to it.

My last point is simple. I do not like BEV's. I am very open and honest about it. But I do not like them ONLY because for me, they do not represent what I want a sports car to be. It is not about speed on it's own. It is about the pure driving experience and that is why I buy and drive Lotus cars for fun and enjoyment.  Yes, I'll probably end up with a BEV/PHEV/HFC at some point as that is the direction the world is going and I accept that. I don't have to like it though or relish it. But when I do buy one, I won't be buying it for MY driving pleasure. It will be a utility purchase to get from A to B, conveniently. My Lotus ICE will remain my "escape" and as I live far away from cities I'll enjoy it for some time to come.

I'm not sure why you take such exception to BEV baiting (not that any of my comments where that in this conversation). Surely there are better outlets where you will not have to argue with Neanderthals like me. This is a LOTUS forum for enthusiasts of the marque so I am struggling to see why you take so personally the berating of BEV's especially when you're own choice is to drive an ICE vehicle, not a BEV, and Lotus do not currently have a BEV on the road.  It's a bit like an Everton fan going onto a Liverpool fansite and expecting to be welcomed with open arms when you try to convert all the red to blue. 

[Dan E]

@C8RKH and @KAS-118 black or white please discuss 😂. 

[C8RKH]

Black square on a white square. But looks like enough space for a charging point so all good to order.

 

I'll probably make more sense in an hour or two after a couple bottles of Syrah.

[Barrykearley]

I for one am deeply offended you assumed  the shape of that colour 

[C8RKH]

Well @Barrykearley you need to check your facts as I did not assume anything:  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/square

 

[ChrisJ]

6 hours ago, Neal H said:

Have you owned a Lotus? If so, I think you’ll understand.

@KAS-118 - maybe missed this question?