Is electric really the answer?

[Bibs]

You're welcome to debate chaps but any more personal insults and I'll intervene more formally. 

[KAS-118]

1 minute ago, Bibs said:

You're welcome to debate chaps but any more personal insults and I'll intervene more formally. 

My apologies Bibs - I agree that this is an interesting subject with many pro’s and cons - and 2 adults should be able to discuss their differences respectfully. 

[C8RKH]

graphene is years off for commercial batteries at scale and volume. stop using different uses to try to justify your point. You have not answered a single question directly that I have put to you. Are you a politician by trade?

 I have consistently said graphene is years away from being used in cars as batteries. You are showing anything but car battery use in a vain attempt to prove your hypothesis is correct.

Rather than reading trendy magazine articles I'm actually working in the UK energy and utilities sector to develop and implement leading edge solutions for stuff like EVs, renewable energy, green hydrogen etc. Which is why I feel quite passionate about it and have a pretty rounded grasp of the issues, timescales etc.

I've provided detail and facts, where you provide links to articles as you need to rely on other peoples knowledge as it's obvious your own is not as authoritative as you think.

Every time I respond with facts you obfuscate and twist.

I'm done. Have a nice day.

 

[KAS-118]

28 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Every time I respond with facts you obfuscate and twist.

Clearly you self-project - and it is you who obfuscate and tries to twist. What you actually said was this 

18 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Graphene is years away from commercial use.

But what you now say is this 

28 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

graphene is years off for commercial batteries at scale and volume. stop using different uses to try to justify your point.

Not the the same thing is it. However it is quite clear you don't have any knowledge on how far off Graphene Batteries are. Rather than provide any 'evidence' to support you arguments you resort to insults. You say that I refer to other things to support my arguments - that's quite correct. The only thing that you use to support your arguments are your own opinions - which are sadly lacking in any facts.

As to your self-proclaimed expertise in the field - the facts are:

1) you said that there wasn't a storage/transportation issue with Hydrogen - however, ACTUAL experts in the field say there is';

2) you are unable to apply simply solutions to any perceived difficulty - i.e. very few people would really need to charge their EV within 12 minutes at Home - they just need to 'top them up' when they've stopped using them for the day. So having chargers at home of that power isn't really the issue.. The 'need' for those type of charges is, in the immediate future, when people are doing long trips away from home. 

You see, the 'facts' are that people who do really know a lot about a certain subject - don't have to go around telling everyone they do - they don't make the obvious errors that you have - and they don't resort to throwing insults at a drop of a hat.

 

[ChrisJ]

Bill Gates becomes first to buy a £500m hydrogen-powered super yacht - behind the paywall unfortunately.

Quote

The software tycoon Bill Gates has commissioned the world’s first hydrogen-powered superyacht, in a £500m signal of his belief that investment in new clean technology is the best way to cut carbon emissions.

 

[MadMick]

Had not watched the Muppets for years but that certainly brought it all back.

Come on guys! (No offense intended)

M.

[C8RKH]

@MadMick - non taken at all. 

@KAS-118. You say one thing. So, I respond to what you have said. I ask you a direct question and you obfuscate.

Several times I have asked you about examples of commercial graphene (that is relevant to EV's) based on your assertion it is already there when your own quote refers to future products. We're talking about car batteries and you keep going back to phones.

You say it is commercial, but each time I have asked you, you have not been able to provide an example of the commercial products you are referring to.

You talked about Hydrogen and the issues, and yet I provided evidence of real projects that are being run right now (e.g. SGN are piping and storing Hydrogen to power a bus fleet in Aberdeen) and I explain that the weight of hydrogen storage for a car is 6kg and the tanks can be moulded - yet all you come back with is that some no named experts say it is hard!  Toyota, Ford and all major manufacturers have hydrogen fuel cell cars - so it can't be that hard can it?

If you don't like the response you move the goalposts to change your position / prove your point.

You introduce stuff like the Lotus quotes - so I play with you and ask you if you know how much power that really was and provide you with the calculations that prove it is not possible for anyone but the super rich etc. I explain the issues re mass roll out of ev chargers and the impact on the grid etc. And you just don't understand. For instance back tracking on the Evija/V3 power consumption needs by saying that of course people would not need the power as they would charge longer and lower voltage when you were using those exact scenarios to suggest that charging was not an issue as it would be reduced to minutes.

As I said, I try to provide facts and insight to back up what I am saying, you provide quotes and move the conversation on to change the focus.

It seems that you value winning an argument over all else. So, in that case, congratulations on the win. It's impossible to argue reasonably with someone like you so I'll stop.

Time will tell who is right.

 

[Barrykearley]

I’m now genuinely interested 

 

graphene batteries - how far are they away from out performing lithium on capacity and performance ??

[KAS-118]

8 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

@KAS-118 - |I truly give up. You say one thing. I respond. I ask you a direct question and you obfuscate.

You don't like the response so you move the goalposts. You introduce stuff like the Lotus quotes - so I play with you and ask you if you know how much power that really was and provide you with the calculations that prove it is not possible.

So you then move the goalposts by saying that of course people would not need the power. You did the same with the Tesla V3.

As I said, I provide facts to back up what I am saying, you provide quotes and move the conversation.

It seems that you value winning an argument over all else. So, in that case, congratulations on the win. It's impossible to argue reasonably with someone like you so I'll stop.

 

Again, self projection.

You asked about charging - you made a big thing about the power and how impossible it was to get at home. It isn't if you're prepared to pay. The point is that a 'expert' wouldn't have suggested that it wasn't necessary - for the reasons I've just pointed out to you - which, rather like the hydrogen issue' - you shy away from answering.

Unfortunately, you find it impossible to 'argue' reasonably full stop. You just insult and try and belittle - and then try and 'win' by declaring yourself an 'expert' - patently you are not.

[C8RKH]

2 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

Bill Gates becomes first to buy a £500m hydrogen-powered super yacht - behind the paywall unfortunately.

 

Spotted this Chris. Beggars belief how anyone can justify spending that much money on a "toy" and I noted it has a diesel powered backup engine too.

@KAS-118   Yawn.... Bye bye.

[KAS-118]

18 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

I’m now genuinely interested 

 

graphene batteries - how far are they away from out performing lithium on capacity and performance ??

Well some 'Experts' think its years away....

....but some say it's almost upon us.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/real-graphene-battery-interview-samuel-gong-ces-2020/

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by KAS-118

[C8RKH]

1 minute ago, KAS-118 said:

Well some 'Experts' think its years away....

....but some say it's almost upon us.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/real-graphene-battery-interview-samuel-gong-ces-2020/

Some say it's commercial reality already :)

(Sorry, just could not resist - my bad)

[KAS-118]

2 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

Some say it's commercial reality already

(Sorry, just could not resist - my bad)

Yes - it was in more way then one

[Barrykearley]

5 minutes ago, KAS-118 said:

Well some 'Experts' think its years away....

....but some say it's almost upon us.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/features/real-graphene-battery-interview-samuel-gong-ces-2020/

 

ahh yes - currently 30% more and that’s on small phone batteries. That’s a fair way off a 70Kw battery pack for my Kona. Adding 30% would take a £40k to more like £55k....

hmmm

[KAS-118]

7 minutes ago, Barrykearley said:

ahh yes - currently 30% more and that’s on small phone batteries. That’s a fair way off a 70Kw battery pack for my Kona. Adding 30% would take a £40k to more like £55k....

hmmm

Yes, Graphene batteries will initially cost more - and yes, they are not currently used in cars. However, battery technology will, and indeed is, moving on - and doing so rapidly 

[Barrykearley]

When will they be ready for cars then?  

[KAS-118]

According to this https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air there is availability - but they not in use.

However, what that 'probably' means is that they're in prototype. However, graphene is itself currently being used in many things including power packs.

What is, almost certain, is that improved batteries will be available in the near future.

So, I'm afraid I can't give you a precise date - only that, the 'evidence' seems to suggest they're somewhat less than "years away"

[Barrykearley]

All I see is this

thats not giving me any sense of feeling that a change is on its way

[KAS-118]

See above post.

So, you saying that you don't believe battery technology is going to improve, either with solid state lithium ions, or Graphene - this being despite the fact that Graphene is currently used in some power packs now?

So what's your prediction for the future....?

[Barrykearley]

I have no idea - commercially if it were profitable then manufacturers would be adopting it and developing it right this minute. I’m not seeing that occurring.

im not going to profess to have any answers on this - but I have many questions. All I can see presently is hype and enthusiasm which is not translated into product adoption. That is a very real issue 

 

[KAS-118]

I'm sure there is a lot of hype - but graphene is being looked into, as are other options. I think its likely, that given 12 - 18 months there will be a significant increase in range and charging speeds.

As for a lack of product adoption - maybe it has been relative slow up until now - at least in this country. Where I currently work in Sweden the Tesla's are frequently seen on the roads - so I think it depends on the country you're in.

As I said earlier in this post - Kia reckon 1/3rd of their car will have some form of electrical power - and that's a big increase to what its been 1 - 2 years ago. The recently introduced Tax changes will also encourage the take up.

I believe that after their next car - Lotus are rumoured to be going electric. Originally, when I heard that, I was rather aghast. However, having now experienced the benefits of electric - I'm beginning to think they may have made a good move.

Time will no-doubt tell.....

[C8RKH]

But you've just spent 24 hours arguing with me that graphene is a commercial proposition now and could power a car. Now you are saying 12-18 months?

We have Tesla's too in the UK you know! And Leaf's, Zoe's etc. But I have no idea what that has to do with Graphene as I am not aware that any Tesla's in UK or Sweden have a graphene or graphene enhanced battery.

No one, including myself is arguing with you that BEV's are not real, nor that Graphene will be a game charger. 

What is being challenged is your several assertions that it is real and commercial now!  That is what we have been arguing about!

Graphene has been known about since 1859, but it's only since 2004 that an explosion in research into has happened and that has been actually led by the UK and the University of Manchester.

So it has taken 16 years to get to the point where Graphene "might" be a game changer for phones and in 2021 the chances are we might see the first real commercial phones powered by Graphene.

What I am struggling with is how does that rate of progress translate to a graphene powered car in 12-18 months?  The scale of the power required between a phone and a car is immense, hence me saying it is years away - I would guess a minimum of 2, more likely 4-6 but the limiting factor then will probably be cost, as it is still now for Lithium batteries.

Again, no one is disagreeing with you re the future potential of Graphene, but we are disagreeing with you re current commercial reality and timescales.

 

[KAS-118]

Oh dear - here we go again. No, I didn't say that Graphene Batteries were available now to power EV's, so that's either the demonstration of your inability to read or the demonstration of your abilities to tell the truth - I'll let people make up their own minds on that one. 

Just to 'remind' you - my exact words were "The facts are that BEV’s are just at the start of their ‘learning curve’ . Graphene and Solid State  batteries are supposed to be coming out shortly," - to which you said Graphene was years away.

Hey - but facts aren't really your strong point are they - nevermind......

[Barrykearley]

On this logic we ain’t far away from time travel and teleporting 

[KAS-118]

Well, I've referred you to a number of links that indicate that Graphene/Solid state batteries are going to be available soon.

If you want to draw an analogy with `Time Travel and Teleporting - then I guess that's up to you. Can't quite see it being the same thing myself...........🤔