Crunching 2nd gear

[jon.hand]

Can anyone advise what might be causing this?

My story begins like this......

This time last year, my car was running fine, and I used to look forward to the weekends to hoon to my hearts consent. In the latter part of last year after the Britball run, fed up with the annoying rattling coming from the clutch and it ever so slightly slipping, I decided to have the clutch replaced and asked esprit engineering to change this for me. I decided to have the standard clutch installed.

After getting the clutch replaced the clutch appeared so much better, the pedal felt lighter and the rattle had gone.

Shortly after having the clutch replaced I noticed the 2nd gear would crunch when trying to select it (unless you were stationary) This fault seemed to be intermitant as the day after I noticed this fault, it seemed to disapear. Again the weekend after that, the gear crunching returned. It seemed weird as it would only do this in second gear.

I advised Geoff at esprit engineering of this fault, on which he advised I return the car for him to look at.

Whilst the car was with Geoff (Just before christmas 07), I asked him to replace the shock and springs, which seemed to take a lifetime to get hold of and install , on which I have only recently got the car back.

Whilst Geoff had the car he believed the problem with the 2nd gear crunching, was down to the seal in the slave cylinder going spongy, on which he advised this would have to be replaced, which he did.

I noticed when taking the car out yesterday (24-3-08) the 2nd gear started to crunch when selecting it. The gear will go in just it makes this awful noise, when trying to get it in.

I advised Geoff of the above, on which he believes the gearbox will now have to be stripped down and investigated, but may not solve the problem.

The hooning season is fast approaching, on which I just want to get it back on the road.

I don't know if I should take the car to a Lotus dealer to investigate this, if so which one?

I know esprits can funny cars when it comes to faults, on which the more technical issues have to be looked at by the experts.

Can anyone please advise my next course of action.

Yet again an un happy GT3-jonny

Edited March 25, 2008 by GT3 jonny

[Tentenths]

If you're after a second opinion from someone who knows his Esprits why not try Steve Williams at Maidenhead? His website.

Or, if you don't mind travelling further afield I'm sure Troy would be willing to help.

[Riddlemr2]

Whatever you do, don't let it crunch anymore. Either skip second when shifting or don't drive it at all. If it is grinding that often, little metal bits are being shaved off and may damage other gears. It could mean you need help with the clutch or may need to have the transmission rebuilt. Either way, do avoid letting it grind anymore.

[fflyingdog]

I don't want to be the harbinger of doom but it sounds like your 2nd gear may have broken a dog on the 2nd gear cog(that was the problem with mine with the exact same symptoms as you are describing) ....................Geoff fixed this (its the cog that is so expensive and i had a broken slip ring too)

Cheers

Nick S4s

Edited March 26, 2008 by fflyingdog

[rogerch]

Try double de-clutching from third to second, if it goes in easily without noise, I reckon it's the syncro on 2nd, if that's the case I would start by doing a gearbox oil change, as lighter oil as possible, it's not going to be there long.

If that doesn't cure it, fraid it's a strip job, if it does, change oil back to standard spec.

All of which may be rubbish, but it worked for me on an Elan, and it's a cheap remidy.

Good luck Roger

[lotus4s]

I dont want to be the speaker of doom but it sounds like your 2nd gear may have broken a dog on the 2nd gear cog(that was the problem with mine with the exact same symptons as you are describing) ....................Geoff fixed this (its the cog that is so expensive and i had a broken slip ring too)

Cheers

Nick S4s

what he said....

[fflyingdog]

If i remember correctly the cog alone was

Edited March 26, 2008 by fflyingdog

[Paula&Marcus]

Hi All,

From my experience the reason for noisy 2nd gears are most likely

- air in the clutch line or faulty master- and/or slave cylinder (clutch is not fully seperating)

- worn 2nd gear synchro (unfortunately this problem is very common, because many owners do not shift properly and simply wear them down by too fast shifting ... let the synchros do their work)

- incompatble gear oil that has "eaten up" your synchro

- destroyed 2nd gear

Check the easy things first, but please dont drive it too much till this problem is solved.

Cheers

Marcus

[percyporsche]

Was yours the yellow one Geoff was moaning about lotus, when i was there, feb this year we had a laugh about labour vs storage charge the former not worth charging for. If it's only second gear then i agree with fflyingdog only a stripe down and a look inside will conferm.

[mangel]

Do you still have the red clutch hose, If the fault is still intermitent then it may be this, Worked wonders on my S4 and my Turbo!!

[jon.hand]

All hoses have been replaced for braided stainless ones.

thanks for the input so far guys

GT3-jonny

Edited March 26, 2008 by GT3 jonny

[SE Owner :-D]

Get an SE...

[Bibs]

- worn 2nd gear synchro (unfortunately this problem is very common, because many owners do not shift properly and simply wear them down by too fast shifting ... let the synchros do their work)

I drive my car with what I'd call 'mechanical sympathy' and don't rush changes up plus heel-toe on the way down. I know we've had this topic recently but how long should a 1st-2nd gearchange take, how long does the synchro need to get everything where it needs to be?

[Riddlemr2]

I drive my car with what I'd call 'mechanical sympathy' and don't rush changes up plus heel-toe on the way down. I know we've had this topic recently but how long should a 1st-2nd gearchange take, how long does the synchro need to get everything where it needs to be?

I similarly baby mine when shifting, which was a difficult paradigm shift from my habit of speed-shifting my indestructible MR2.

I let a friend drive the Lotus one day and he shifted it more quickly than I'd have preferred, but it resulted in a beautiful and loud backfire and a huge flame from the exhaust. I'd have kicked his ass if it weren't so awesome to see.

I don't think there is a shifting speed rule of thumb, but I think I spend at least a full half second when shifting. That may not sound like a lot, but if the car is to go 0-60 in less than 5 seconds, a half second is a lifetime when driving hard.

[rogerch]

"Shortly after having the clutch replaced I noticed the 2nd gear would crunch".

Didn't happen to change the gearbox oil at the same time did they?

Too thicker oil can cause the same symtoms, especially when cold, worth checking as you say it happened just after it came back.

Roger

[jon.hand]

Nice one guys.

I'll check if the oil was changed today the same time as the clutch, as its going back this morning.

GT3-jonny

[neal]

This is a long shot but it worked for me...

About three years ago I was on the way to a hoon on the Isle of Man. But going through the Peak District the 2nd gear started crunching very badly. It was strange though, there was no gradual deterioration - one minute it was absolutely fine the next minute it was knackered. The changes didn't become more difficult or you had to change more slowly - it just stopped working completely. If you revved the engine in neutral with the clutch out, pushed the clutch in (to spin up the gearbox primary shaft) then tried to engage second it would grind straight away no matter how slowly you shifted. Also, in neutral with the clutch out the syncho didn't block changing into second, it would move and start grinding as the dog teeth banged off the 2nd gear. It was as if there was no syncho at all and it was a dog gear. Knowing about the problems with the second gear syncho, I figured that the friction surface on the syncho ring had completely disintegrated.

However, on getting off the boat at Douglas I noticed that it had started working again. And I don't mean it improved a little - it was absolutely fine! The only thing that I could come up with was that the syncho ring had somehow become jammed in the syncho housing rendering it useless and effectively making it a dog gear. Thing is I had no idea what I had done to free up the syncho. I figured that to get jammed the synchro ring and/or housing was probably damaged or worn and expected the same thing to happen again but three years later it was still fine.

Up until yesterday. I was at a track day at Donington on the GP circuit and exactly the same thing happened towards the end of the day. Now Donington GP is unusal in that you actually use second a fair bit (three corners are very slow) so it takes quite a pounding. Hoping that it had jammed again I tried everything - accelerating hard in second, braking hard in second, etc., but no joy. Got home and reversed the car into the garage. Let everything cool down, and still the same. Tried this morning and still the same. So preparing to bleed the clutch line, I reversed the car up onto ramps. Before starting bleeding I checked again on the ramp just in case, and incredibly it was now working. I've been out for a spirited drive since and it's still fine. So I know this time what fixed it - reversing onto the ramps. Reversing into the garage last night didn't help but reversing onto the ramp uses a lot more torque, which made the critical difference. I can only guess that three years ago reversing on the ferry up a rampway or something did the trick.

So why did this work? Only thing I can figure is that the reverse idler gear on the UN1 uses teeth machined into the 1st/2nd syncho housing. By reversing against a large force you're pushing the housing hard in the opposite direction to which it normally travels and this freed the second synchro ring.

It's worth a try - you don't have to reverse onto a ramp. Just try to reverse with the handbrake hard on. Releasing and slipping the clutch slowly you should get the car moving against the handbrake (it's relatively weak) using a lot more torque than normal for reverse - same as me going up the ramp.

Edited March 30, 2008 by neal

[jpspeedy]

Roger

I'm in the US is crunch the same as grinding? If so mine would grind going into 2nd. I change the translators/ linkage connectors at the rear of the vehicle. and made sure it was adjusted correctly and the grinding into 2nd stop.

jp

[rogerch]

Good point, because the gearbox would have to have been disturbed to replace the clutch.

I guess my main point is to check all the cheap possibilities, before you go ripping out and stripping the gearbox, because that's a bad time to find out it was dirt in the syncro, that may have been flushed, incorrect oil, or a mall adjusted linkage.

Roger

[jon.hand]

Guys

Thanks for all your help.

My guy checked all the usual suspects, low hydraulic oil, leaks, adjustments, on which all seemed ok.

I bit the bullet and had the gears / syncro inspected (inside) interesting findings

See attached pictures

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/238163...fd4d0cbec_s.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/238163...bcc01106a_s.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2262/238246...fbe1be34f_s.jpg

THIS THREAD HAS NOW BEED EDITED PLEASE SEE BELOW FOR CLEARER PICTURES (GT3-jonny)

GT3-jonny

Edited April 2, 2008 by GT3 jonny

[peter_england99]

Jonny,

Pictures are a bit small, but look very similar to my 2nd gear paperweight I have here. Those dog teeth are really small and it doesn't help that they don't extend all the way round the gear, reducing the number of teeth and hence increasing the load on each tooth.

Regards,

Peter.

[cweeden]

Guys

Thanks for all your help.

My guy checked all the usual suspects, low hydraulic oil, leaks, adjustments, on which all seemed ok.

I bit the bullet and had the gears / syncro inspected (inside) interesting findings

See attached pictures

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/238163...fd4d0cbec_s.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/238163...bcc01106a_s.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2262/238246...fbe1be34f_s.jpg

GT3-jonny

Hi Jonny,

Can you post some larger images please?

I have a similar problem in one of my 'boxes but with similar symptoms to Neal, one day very suddenly it crunched and did so for some time (I would only try it occasionaly) then one day it was fine again. Someone suggested the synchro ring may be cracked but I am sceptical.

Did you see any damage to the synchro or other parts?

cheers

-Chris

[jon.hand]

Sorry Guys,

I'm really quite rubbish when it comes to attaching these photo thingy's (even though Cliff has told me god knows how many times, how to do it)

Here goes again

It's like pictures from Nightmare On Elm street!!!

Geoff, has also advised me that there

Edited April 2, 2008 by GT3 jonny