Give me a clue (S1 Esprit)!

[Sunbeam Fanatic]

Hi All,

It may be the case that I need to sell my S1 Esprit as I have a S2 Europa that I want to restore, the problem is I have seen so much conflicting information about values that I'm really confused as to what I should reasonably ask for it!

Hopefully this is where you guys come in as I'd like some views on what justifies a fair and reasonable price for sale (not insurance valuation).

I like to think it's a decent car, always garaged only taxed and used 6 months of the year so currently has MOT but tucked away for the winter. about 55k miles, factory says black but looks midnight blue to me and no evidence of re-paint, 1978 S reg. but with what looks like a S2 front spoiler, on S3 split rim compomotive wheels with 60 profile tyres, bodywork is pretty good, some crazing in a few places but no chunks missing! Everything works, engine is good and strong as is gearbox, engine & gearbox are original, only upgrade is MSD ignition to help starting and smooth running (works excellently), plumbed in electrical fire extinguisher (just in case) but it doesn't overheat. Front brakes converted to vented discs & 4 pot calipers. Interior completely professionally re-trimmed in black leather and alcantara, inc. seats, dash, dash pod, tunnel, carpets, door cards etc, also re-trimmed around engine bay and had a vinyl rear compartment cover made as original. Modern head unit with iPod/USB connection (speakers in doors), Parrot Bluetooth car phone kit. New dashboard panel made (moulded carbon) and complete set of Smiths Telemetrix gauges fitted (6). LIke I said I like to think it's a decent car with a few minor concessions to the modern world! Always passed MOT's in my ownership with no problem.

So my question is, if I were to sell what is a fair and reasonable asking price and apart from this forum where are good outlets to sell?

Thanks for any help

SF

[Bibs]

A shed S1 is now £10k's worth of car - if it's white...

A decent S1 is now £20-30k's worth of car - if it's white...

Now imagine, if you can handle such a thing, a decent white S1 with a tartan interior that was chassis number 007! Or something! Wow!

Anyway, a black S1 with sympathetic modifications and in good or better condition, I'd not be surprised to see you walking away with £15k+ but expect the non-original features to chip away at the price such as the leather interior, spoiler and wheels.

Sell it on here, it's free and it will get you a buyer. Other than that, 30 seconds on google will reveal alternatives.

[simonb]

Are S1s selling at £20K + or is that just being asked?

I think there needs to be good reason for a n/a car to go north of £10K, and every £1 up needs to be earnt (sadly)

There are just not that many original tartan / white cars - would a dozen RHD be off the mark?

[Sunbeam Fanatic]

Hi Bibs,

Thanks for the info., there's just such a lot of conflicting opinion around, I will of course put it up for sale here as I'd like it to go to a good home. I'm torn about selling it but I really want to restore my 1970 Europa and I can justify re-investing the proceeds of selling the S1 into restoring another Lotus, having said that I've been inspired by the Audi V8 engined Esprit so have sourced a nice low mileage 30v Audi V6 and 2wd transmission which is destined for the Europa so while I'll be sad at the departure of the S1 I've certainly got something interested to look forward to!

On a related sales point is there much demand for S1's or is it a waiting game?

Hi Simon,

I was lost by your comment "would a dozen RHD be off the mark?" and was wondering what you meant?

Cheers,

SF

[MPx]

I think that Simon was saying that his opinion is that the high prices are being commanded for the white ones specifically and he's suggesting that there may only be a dozen or so of those given the popularity of other colours at the time.

Having stood on the the TLF stand last weekend, mostly near Ken's immaculate S1 with its new tartan trim, I can certainly vouch for the interest in the car and only mild surprise to the suggested values of £20k for an ordinary good one to maybe £50k for concours. However, I think the S1 has only recently climbed to these dizzy heights and prices over £20k are getting more towards the collector sector than the enthusuast. So I doubt there's a queue at that sort of money - it'll be a waiting game, Whether it only applies to white cars...well I doubt it any more than the notion that high Ferrari prices only applies to red cars.

Good luck with the sale. Mike

[plumdeplakmuis]

I think if you change the following stuff it will be at least worth an extra GBP 2000,- / 3000,-

- Gear shift knob to original wood

- Instrument pannel to preferrably the veglia monoblock, or to an S2 panel

- Steering wheel to the original S1 or S3 or a more classic unit

- And some wolfrace rims.

I don't think the spoiler change will be worth the effort

[Nelly]

Ian Heighway had his red S1 for sale at £13k recently. Its not on ebay now so I assume its sold.

As nice and tidy as the car looks originality is going to be its biggest issue. I think it will sell but IMO the price will reflect what it doesn't have rather than what it does have. Trying to get some wolkfrace alloys will be a challenge.

My S2 doesn't (and wont) have an originaly interior , but I get the feeling it doesn't matter as much on my car as an S1.

As Bibs mentioned, white is the preferred colour for fairly obvious reasons.

[MPx]

Trying to get some wolkfrace alloys will be a challenge.

Slightly off topic, but at the NEC I spoke to a lovely chap from Norfolk who was into rodding. He'd popped over to the stand cos he had a set of wolfies he no longer needed which he'd used on his Cortina but was now moving on to some more extreme wheels. He'd heard they may be worth £1k and was looking for confirmation - he claimed they were better than new condition. We suggested he put them up for sale in the parts section here .... or ebay. The £1k would by him the other parts he needed so I think he was excitied enough about it to put them up and he said he'd prefer to see them returned to a suitable car. Of course he may just bung them on e-bay.....but worth keeping a lookout.

[simonb]

Hi Steve, the dozen or so was just wild speculation as to how many "white with tartan" original RHD Esprits actually left Hethel new. Would be a shame if the market turns into losing originality on other esprits to make pastiches of a bond car.

I would also speculate that there will not even be half a dozen ORIGINAL tartan interiors that are of "show" condition

[Sunbeam Fanatic]

Hi Chaps,

Thanks for the views, I guess it's a case of horses for courses, my car although not completely original inside has the original chassis, engine & gearbox, I take the point re. the non-original parts but then again you can jump in my car, turn they key and it starts flawlessly, all the electrics work and it drives strong without hesitation with a decent gear change too! It sounds like it depends on what buyer will want from a car.

I guess my S3 split rim compomotives are worth something and while not original you can buy a set of imitation Slot Mags from Image machined out of solid billet alloy for a bit over £1k in a width and offset to suit the S1, I'm not convinced that a set of rims from a Cortina would be the right width or offset for an S1??

From memory Ian's S1 had been re-trimmed in a biscuit coloured hide?

Cheers,

SF

[Bibs]

It is horses for course, you're right but on the whole, non-original (if for reliability/safety/modernisation/looks) modifications detract from the value. A concors, white, tartan original S1 would be £50k on a good day to the right person. Stick a red leather interior in it, £40k, get rid of the wheels, £39k, paint it black, £35k, you get the drift I'm sure.

Originality on these cars is so important I was speaking to an S1 owner recently who project managed another restoration and the arguments even went to the angle of the cut of the carpet by the seat belt mount, that's how important originality is on a top price car.

Lovely car all the same, shame you're selling.

[MPx]

I'm not convinced that a set of rims from a Cortina would be the right width or offset for an S1??

FWIW - From what the guy said, they were used as one of the mods to the Cortina Steve (in fact only the rears were actually used on the car), I think the set were for/from an S1 originally.

[nello]

Originally and specification do definately dictate sales interest...............

Any original S1 would interest me but you have to say a white one would garner the most attention.

If you are not bothered about the spec and it being standard then surely buyers would look at later cars.

I've also got an early 1300 X1/9 and Lime Green original spec cars always fetch more than any of the (few!) others around..........

[plumdeplakmuis]

It doesn't have to be totaly original, but contemporary bits is essential.

If you can sell it as a classic it will be worth more than selling it as a entry level mid engined supercar.

Both styles attract different customers.

[Nelly]

Ian Heighway had his red S1 for sale at £13k recently. Its not on ebay now so I assume its sold.

Forgive me for quoting myself, but Ians car has resurfaced on ebay up at £15k

[GavinT]

Hi Steven,

These are great suggestions from Garp and would definitely make the car more appealing:-

- Gear shift knob to original wood

- Instrument pannel to preferrably the veglia monoblock, or to an S2 panel

- Steering wheel to the original S1 or S3 or a more classic unit

- And some wolfrace rims.

Although 3 out of the 4 maybe be difficult to find and could be rather expensive unless your lucky.

Originality will always command the higher values no matter what the car. IMO subtle upgrades and enhancements will not devalue the car that much as long as they are in character with the cars era and of Lotus. A big NO NO on an S1 is always going to be air scoops and dog ears. Buyers of an S1 want the clean body lines.

Ebay with a high reserve will tell you what the market is willing to pay today. It is the end of the car season and I should think prices are a little soft, the spring maybe a better time to sell.

Best of luck.

Gavin

Edited November 18, 2010 by GavinT

[Advantage]

Wasn't the front lower spoiler a factory item on the late Series 1 cars?

[nigeninja]

For me the only real criteria for an S1 would be the wolfrace wheels,would not bother me one bit having the interior you have thats something that can be change a bit at a time,not that there's anything wrong with what you have done mate it looks good

[simonb]

Stephen, as a matter of interest, what size tyres are you running, and what can you get in that size. Original wheels may help originality, but sporty tyres in 205/60r14 and 205/70r14 seem hard to find

[comem47]

Call it personal taste, but I prefer the more refined look of the Speedline wheels, albeit not original to S1. But of course Speedlines also being 14" do not solve the tire availability issue. . On my JPS , while I prefer being original, I wouldn't be averse to wheels done in good taste like Phil Miller did for his JPS so that he could run more available rubber of larger wheel sizes (he made offset spacers to match the wheels he located and had them painted to matching JPS gold). These days it's really getting down to if one wants to preserve a rarely driven museum piece (with 14" rubber) or be able to put a good amount of miles on a car you can enjoy driving that you know you can find rubber for. (one can always keep the old wheels/tires for "show" but eventually they will crack/dry-rot due to age.) There are some classic muscle car tires being reproduced in 14", but nothing usable for an Esprit. (I wonder also how good those tires would be for taking curves at speed, vs being more for "newer show" use.)

.

[LOTUSMAN33]

Intresting thread this one........

I like this S1 although not very original she seems to be in great shape, it is the sort of project i would take on especially as I have a spare set of wheels.

As for prices;

Yellow S1 on pistonheads again missing wolfraces and spoiler, retrimmed - £8000 with new MOT

Yellow S1 on ebay recently - less than £4k needing work

Red S1 on ebay - needs work as chassis looks poor and engine leaking, cosmetics good - £15k

While looking for mine I was offered several restoration projects between £2k and £5k

I sold Ken his car for around £8k, this was a 77 car with brown/cream interior, Ken has had the tartan put in so not original, this car also had a sunroof which I removed, lovely car though and looking great now retrimmed, only car I have ever regretted selling.

A true collector will pay a fine price for a white/tartan car and as BiBs said upto £30k+

On ebay I would expect the Blue S1 to raise between £6k and £8k

S2 are the one to watch as they will increase in price as people can't get the S1's.

[Guest surferphil]

I think it is essential for any car to get the best value to have a new MOT Certificate as it shows good mechanical condition over no MOT

A tax disc means a buyer can test drive/drive it away.

By far the most important thing is what makes it an S1:

Wolfies

Original green Dials and pod

Original Engine and Chassis

I love the interior but the creature comforts are definitely not what are driving the market, soon the S1 will be the most valuable classic Lotus.

People who want the S1 mostly want a Bond car, so you will probably sell to someone who will want one to look just like it and if that's a project, then it's an expensive one.

I would not bother with an auction, but like Mr Bibs said- an ad is free. Valuing it is hard but someone should pay £10-15k but may expect the matching numbers to secure their investment so include them in the ad to promote originality.

Wolfies and green gauges will help even if they are not fitted but give confidence that the car is 'complete' I think the front spoiler is probably an original, very late S1.

Good luck

[lotuschris]

I think the front spoiler is an original S1 type and is different to the S2 version. The spoiler on this car looks 'pointed' in the middle, an S2 spoiler is square or straight along the leading edge.

Chris