S2000

[red vtec]

No way, hold on here!

 

You said: "VTEC with 4ws best handling front drive wheel car" - S2000/Prelude? vs M100 WTF?

You said: "an M100 will give it a good run, but the S2000 won't leak and won't break down." M100s don't break down and S2000s do leak, M100 is also turbocharged and a better ride, handling, chassis, construction and looks. M100 doesn't have a pressed steel monocoque designed solely with mass production in mind and the sports car characteristics added after. No steel box Honda can match Lotus for engineering.

 

S2000 vs M100? Like I said:  

I think I'll trust my friends opinion over yours he was a power train engineer at Lotus. They are simply not as well engineered as the big car manufactures. They don't have the budgets.

The Honda integra Type R is usual recognised as the best handling FWD car, and the late LJK Setright praised the VTEC prelude as one of the best cars he had ever driven. I guess Gordon Murray has also got it wrong with his praise of the Honda NSX.

The M100 is a good car, however they do leak as you couldn't get the replacement seals for ages. The S2000 is a great car, and so is the M100. You pay your money and make your choice.

Don't get your comment about turbo charging, the s2000 gets 240bhp from a 2.0 NA engine that us impressive. And you can always fit a turbo if you really want. The prelude Jun turbo is a very impressive bit of kit.

[rudolphwolven]

........... but for me the highlight was the gearbox, it was awesome.

 

It is a beautiful gearbox indeed, superlight "klick-clack", quick, short shifting pathes, no hitches.....it is a standard on its own.

It is produced by Aisin (Toyota) and it's called the AZ6. This S2000 gearbox is shared (internals) by the Mazda MX-5, Lexus IS200, Nissan S15 Silvia and the Mazda Rotary RX-8 Renesis. It is suitable up to 400 bhp and 450/500 Nm torque.

During the new-car sales crisis in 2009 I purchased a (brand new) RX-8 at 45% of its listprice and since then I love this car extemely in all kind of aspects, especially the ride quality, the brakes (12,7 / 11,9 front rear discs), the rotary engine (up to 9.400 rpm) and the 6 speed gearbox.

The immense braking capacity compared to Porsche GT3 RS and Honda S2000 shows the next table:

Distance from 100-0 resp. 200-0 kmh (warm):

Porsche GT3 RS: ...34,1m resp. 132,5 m (ceramic brakes, 6/4 cyl. brake calipers)

Mazda RX-8: ........35,2m resp. 138,3 m

Honda S2000:...... 35,2m resp.  148,8 m

 

As you can see I am a RX-8 fan..........however often people (that do not know the RX-8 really) immediate will object (unfounded) that the rotary engine will break down soon........that is not the complete story.......below you will find the result of a ...

 

Satisfaction-poll of the USA-RX-8 forum; (Voters: 3880)

 

Highly Satisfied .....................2,798 72.11%

 

Somewhat Satisfied ............................................682 17.58%

 

Neutral ........................................................................151 3.89%

 

Somewhat Dissatisfied .................................................127 3.27%

 

Highly Dissatisfied ........................................................122 3.14%

 

 

 

 

The opinion of Jeremy Clarkson about the RX-8:

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Ruud

[Guest surferphil]

I think I'll trust my friends opinion over yours he was a power train engineer at Lotus. They are simply not as well engineered as the big car manufactures. They don't have the budgets.

The Honda integra Type R is usual recognised as the best handling FWD car, and the late LJK Setright praised the VTEC prelude as one of the best cars he had ever driven. I guess Gordon Murray has also got it wrong with his praise of the Honda NSX.

The M100 is a good car, however they do leak as you couldn't get the replacement seals for ages. The S2000 is a great car, and so is the M100. You pay your money and make your choice.

Don't get your comment about turbo charging, the s2000 gets 240bhp from a 2.0 NA engine that us impressive. And you can always fit a turbo if you really want. The prelude Jun turbo is a very impressive bit of kit.

 

Well I trust my opinion over yours since I have been driving them for 9 years and working on them for 5 years.

This is the first time I have ever seen anyone claim that the Honda type R is the best handling front drive car!

Any one saying 'my mate says its better so it is' clearly does not understand an intellectual argument.

 

Lotus cars are well engineered that's what they are famous for, who do you think the big car manufacturers go to when they need help with their engineering? LOTUS Engineering.

 

Lotus are better engineered than big car manufacturers: Nissan Ford, Jaguar, Tesla,  Proton/Mitsubishi, Isuzu, Toyota, Opel/Vauxhall and much more kept secret, why do you think the big manufacturers go to Lotus for their engineering consultancy if it isnt as good? Who did Honda announce was their new technical partner recently? Oh it was Lotus! Lotus are considered the best ride and handling, 4 cylinder engine and chassis engineers in the industry.

 

I think you are confused the M100 had a massive engineering budget bank rolled by General Motors and Lotus are well known for their superior ride and handling, that doesn't come from poor engineering, it comes from legendary engineering.

 

 

M100s usually leak because they aren't looked after and most owners won't spend the money as they usually only take them out in good weather new seals are about £1k and I have seen pretty much every convertible leak including S2000. However My daily driver for 5 years didn't leak and It was kept out side.

 

You can turbo charge any car but 240 bhp at redline, not very useful.

 

I can't believe I have to write this on a Lotus forum!

[red vtec]

Phil,

 

As you say I don't understand an intellectual arrgument, how could I possibly conntinue in conversation with some one of your vastly superior intellect. I bow to your knowledge and apologise for having audacity to have a different view to yourself.

 

My friend who worked there obviously has no idea about engineering, god help the powertrain dept he know runs for one of the worlds biggest car manufacturers, I'll tell him to rip up the engineering degree and bin all his years of experience he is clearly wasting his time.

 

Ps I did not say they were not great engineers, I said they had limited budgets compared to the big boys,

 

Regards the Type R Integra you are clearly joking. You only have to google it. they are recognised as one of the great drivers cars. But hey guess you know better.

 

I'll doff my cap as I leave the room sir.

[Guest surferphil]

Its simple Chris, you continue the conversation by back up your argument with reason, not try to insult me with sarcasm and run away when someone disagrees and questions you reasoning behind it.

 

you can't make an intelligent argument by saying my mate says so or Google says so. I made a few points, so tell me how I'm wrong or agree.

 

I can see the engineering design of the Integra and its a platform based - pressed steel monocoque with trailing arm suspension; designed for mass production and tweeked for a little extra performance. Does it handle better than your Esprit?

 

If your mate wants to argue then that's great, invite him on the forum; the best arguments I have had are ones I learn something from, maybe he can shed some light on your opinion.

 

Don't be afraid to express your reasoning, you aren't going to achieve anything by slagging me off.

[mdw]

This isn't really achieving much guys. Is it time to agree to disagree.

[Vulcan Grey]

While I do like the M100, I do have to stand up for the Integra Type-R here.

 

I've had 2 Honda Integras (well they call them Acura Integras here), and I've driven the M100 on street, in the mountains on twisty roads, and in an autocross event.  Been a passenger on track as well. 

 

IMO I definitely prefer the Integra, especially in the Type-R guise with the limited slip differential.  The M100 feels very front heavy and ponderous.  It is easy to pivot the rear on the autocross, but then it isn't difficult in the Integra either, if you want.

 

But let's compare facts.

 

How many championships has the M100 won?  I can't find any.

 

I did find this in a quick search for the Integra.

 

P.S. I was actually at one of the races for the 1997 season, and the Integras were the class of the field!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealTime_Racing

 

In 1997, the team’s World Challenge Touring Car program transitioned to the Acura Integra Type R. RealTime drivers won championships with this model in 1997 (Pierre Kleinubing), 1998 (Galati), 2000 (Kleinubing), 2001 (Kleinubing) and 2002 (Cunningham). The strength of RealTime’s Integra program gave Acura its first four World Challenge Manufacturers’ Championships: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2002.

The Integra Type R would go down as the most successful car model in the history of the World Challenge Touring Car category, scoring more wins, poles and championships than any other model before or since. A winning example of RealTime’s Integra Type R resides in the Honda museum.^[2]

In the midst of the Acura Integra Type R’s success, RTR added a World Challenge GT (then called Touring 1) program to its stable, campaigning a normally-aspirated Acura NSX. The car won eight races between the 1996 – 1998 World Challenge seasons and Cunningham won the GT Drivers’ Championship in 1997 with the car.

In 2003, RealTime began its campaign of the Acura RSX in Touring Car. The team won three races with the RSX in the model’s debut season and finished second in the Drivers’ Championship with Kleinubing. The race debut of the Acura TSX came in 2004, but as the team worked to develop the TSX, the RSX continued to play a significant role in the World Challenge Touring Car Championship through 2008.
 

The first generation TSX would go on to score championships for Cunningham in 2005 and 2008, and for Kleinubing in 2006. The second generation TSX made its debut in 2009 and netted another Drivers’ Championship for Kleinubing. The TSX maintained Acura and RealTime’s legacy of success in World Challenge, scoring Manufacturers’ Championships in 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2009.

 

RTR moved to the new GTS category in 2010 with Cunningham and Nick Esayian each taking home race victories that year. The team briefly and successfully added a Honda Civic Si to their stable at the Grand Prix of Toronto where driver Nick Wittmer won the Touring Car race. RealTime took home both the Drivers’ Championship and the Manufacturers’ Championship for Acura in 2010, but as the competition intensified and the category grew, the decision was made to upgrade the TSX to a V6 platform in 2012. The V6-powered TSX steered the team to another Drivers’ Championship for Cunningham and Acura’s record-extending 10th Manufacturers’ Championship.

They actually won 2 championships the years before with a Honda Prelude.

NOTE: that was the same World Challenge Series that the Esprit was so successful racing in during the early 90's

1997  Pierre Kleinubing Acura Integra

1998 Michael Galati Acura Integra

1999 Michael Galati Acura Integra

2000 Pierre Kleinubing Acura Integra

2001 Pierre Kleinubing Acura Integra

2002 Peter Cunningham Acura Integra

 

Also remember this the 2005-2006 BTCC Champions.

2005  Matt Neal Team Halfords  Honda Integra Type R

2006  Matt Neal Team Halfords  Honda Integra Type R

[Guest surferphil]

...

 

But let's compare facts.

 

How many championships has the M100 won?  I can't find any.

 

....

 

Well, 

 

How many championships have they won? How many have they entered? Elan wouldn't fit into a touring car championship it isn't a tin top. So where are the facts, I'm intrigued?

[Vulcan Grey]

 

I can see the engineering design of the Integra and its a platform based - pressed steel monocoque with trailing arm suspension; designed for mass production and tweeked for a little extra performance. Does it handle better than your Esprit?

 

 

The Integra Type-R that people most refer to is the DC2 design circa 1995-2001.

THe DC2 Integra actually had double wishbones at all 4 wheels.  The pressed steel "unit body" construction used on the Integra is also used on the 911...

 

The DC5 Integra, which is what I have now, had McPherson struts up front and double wishbone in the rear.  I know that the rear suspension looks similar to a trailing arm, but it is a double wishbone, in how it controls camber throughout movement.

 

In fact the rear suspension on the Integra is very similar to the Esprit in many ways, except for geo angles and the use of a anti roll bar, which the Esprit does not have.

[giorgio67]

Just my 2 cents without any polemic,

I can't understand how it's possible to compare a Lotus with a Honda, I'm not speaking about better or worse ( it's obvious) but simply are not comparable, Lotus is in the bunch of the best cars in the world  (first for me)  Honda is just a good quality car, massive production car and nothing more.

Is like to compare a Steinway concert piano with a Yamaha concert piano...both plays certain....

 

Giorgio

[Don.Hasi]

Mh… I dont know whether it must go this way of arguing… I have just driven both at this very weekend and they have both their right to exist. They are completely different and both great fun to drive. Sure, at the end of the day you want to know which is quicker. As I have only a M100 NA the lack of power makes it a clear result. But there are occasions where the M100 nevertheless is in front. It is just a matter of the different layout.

 

The roar of the v-tec is simply awesome. It is a pure racing engine. That kind of engine everybody wants in his (racing) toy. And there is a similarity with the turbo (M100 I have also driven): you want that kick in of the second v-tec again and again like the feeling of the turbo kick.

 

It is useless to argue about the racing pedigree of the M100. First of all: it has more racing pedigree a car will ever get, simply through its DNA from Lotus and on the other side, it was never built as a FHC. It has had the similar target like the last CRX solei which also was no racing car…

 

That said… I also never heard of the FWD Hondas before in case of legendary road handling but they are known for the best engines. Yes. AND I wish, I would have the Integra engine in my M100.

 

On the other hand the Isuzus of the M100 are also longrunners with very reasonably costs and high power output.

 

Sometimes there is no winner… and there is only one solution: buy both!

[Guest surferphil]

I agree, they are very different and built for very different purposes. The difference between the M100 NA and Turbo is significant although the chassis can handle a lot more power than the SE can deliver.   

[Vulcan Grey]

I wasn't arguing about racing pedigree.  I knew the M100 had none, wasn't in the same category, and didn't need any.

 

My intention was to point out the strengths of the Integra, not to slag off the M100.

 

Once the Honda's (S2000 or Integra) merits were mentioned in a thread about a Honda...  Someone then decided to argue that the Integra and S2000 had no merits, and couldn't possibly compete with the M100.  NOTE: I voiced my opinion about the Integra compared to the M100, from personal experience.  I didn't say the M100 wasn't good for what it was, just that I preferred the Integra.

 

In fact, they were very similar in performance as originally delivered.  Both were 0-60 in about 6s, and both 1/4 mile in ~15.3s, the Integra will go over 150mph, and the Elan 137mph.  Both front drive with an LSD...  The reasons for comparisons are obvious.  Some people might choose between 2 fun cars with similar performance, but one more useful, or more reliable, or might prefer the looks of another.

 

In my case, 14 years ago, I was trying to choose between the Esprit SE, and a 2000 Integra Type-R.  Both were available for $24k, one new, one used. The Integra would have been fun and sporty, reliable, usable for driving in the snow and to go mountain biking, and great as a daily driver.  The other would have been a hobby and a project, not necessarily reliable or usable as a daily driver, and definitely not for snowboarding or mountain biking...

 

In the end I already had an older Integra as a daily, so I bought the Esprit...  But it was a close decision.

[Guest surferphil]

I firmly believe that one car is not enough, it doesn't do every thing well. Better to have two cars that do what you want to do, and do it well.

As I have 2 boys a project house and live in a county that has roads resembling a used minefield. I also have a Freelander. 

[CaptainBigleux]

One of my biggest automotive disappointment.

I was fan for years, represented the best affordable sport roadster when I was teenager (after the elise of course)... then I tried the stunning example of a good friend, both on B road and track day.

First impression is really good : love the look, doesn't get old, love the interior, driving position is almost perfect, gear shifting is nice (very short to handle).Handling is very good for a stock car, very natural, quite sharp front end, back end you can play with, engine very communicative...

 

BUT, there is a but : after the first excitment you start to think some bhp are missing. You really need to push it to the limit to feel something, hard to manage long drift because you need to keep the rev over the vtec change. This engine is fun for a while but quickly you feel something is wrong. A barely stock lotus elise mk1 is faster on the straight line !

 

Don't get me wrong, it's a good car, very good car even. As I said very nice design, good balance, quite reliable apparently (if you avoid first years I heard something wrong with lubrification)... just not exactly what I was expecting. I imagined a beast, something wild, and it's just a very good car feeling underpowered.

Probably with some good tuning can be very good... but the prices of used cars stays so high in France that I never considered this model. Probably with UK prices the story could have been different.

[Colin G]

As I said in an earlier post, I owned three S2000's, prior to these I had both an integra type-R and a Lotus Élan SE turbo. My memories of the honda's are incredibly positive, the M100 on the other hand, definitely not. Possibly the worst breaks on a performance car I've ever encountered, and something that wasn't easily remedied without expensive aftermarket upgrades as far as I'm aware? It had hosts of other problems/faults too, but I'd be happy to concede I may not have had the best example. Out of the three S2000's and the integra I never had a single issue or fault, not one, and they were all fantastically fun cars.

[Guest surferphil]

Sorry you had such a bad experience Colin.

 

Sounds like you had a car that wasn't maintained properly. If you spent £20 on new sliding pins the callipers would probably have been fine, new ones were on sale recently for about £50 and a (full strip down, new parts and electroplated) refurbishment is about £100 from SJ, PNM do a 4 pot big brake HiSpec full kit for £600

 

Trouble is people don't look after their cars and they let them get into this state, some poor unsuspecting bloke comes and buys it and has to fix the lack of good maintenance, gives up and sells it to some other poor unsuspecting soul; thus the reputation of Lots of Trouble is born.

 

I know a few people who look after their cars and as a result they don't have problems, they don't tend to sell their cars either. The M100 has common faults, most of which can be fixed in 20 mins for less than £20 and yet almost every car I buy needs these simple jobs doing.

[Colin G]

I reached my end with the elan when I drove from London to Scotland one weekend and applied the brakes only for nothing to happen, that was a real pant soiling moment. It didn't put me off Lotus cars though as you can see! Based purely on my own experiences I would take the S2000 over an Elan every day of the week though, I can't think of any way in which the M100 is better, but again in all fairness they're cars from different eras.

[Guest surferphil]

Sounds like it was you who didn't maintain the car then? 

[Colin G]

I didn't buy the car new, I think I was the fifth or sixth owner. The quality of the brakes or any of the other bits that fell off weren't due to mistreatment or lack of care on my watch, so no. What was my fault was not having a thorough check of the car done or being knowledgable enough.

[Guest surferphil]

That's good to know, I have had 10 or so and never had one break down or brakes fail... I think you had bad luck with that one but I tend to have a mental list of things to do and things to check with all cars I buy.

[TBD]

Nice comparison.

 

[Vulcan Grey]

not to rag on M100's.  Cause they are a nice car, and they are fun.

 

But they all seem to have cracks in the fuel filler neck of the tank ( I have many friends with M100's), and they all complain about the brakes.  Though the same could be said for Esprit's like mine (rusted tanks and weak brakes), so don't take that too hard

 

Oh and if it were my choice, I wouldn't have the S2000, because I don't fit!  I'd rather have an Elise or Exige, because I do fit in those (not great but better than the Honda).

[Guest surferphil]

Unfortunately a lot of M100 owners just whine can complain about everything, instead of checking and maintaining their cars they just blame previous owners and moan that a 14 year old car needs a few things repairing on it!

 

Ask them how long they have had that problem and why they haven't got it fixed. There's no excuse; the fuel tanks can easily be plastic welded and the brakes are crap because they are the same floating calliper as a 1990 Astra and the £20 sliding pins on them need replacing.

 

I just took a perfect fuel tank out of a 1990 Elan.

Just tell them to get their cars fixed and stop whining about it like a girl with PMT.

 

I sold the Elise and the Esprit and kept the M100 because its so competent in all conditions.

[red vtec]

Phil,

 

I'm not saying that the M100 is a bad car or the S2000 is better etc. I'm saying that the Sporty Honda's S2000, Integra Type R, NSX, Prelude VTEC are all great cars and the build quality is high. If you get a chance to try a good one do, they are fun reliable cars. and the VTEC units are fantastic. If I could find a nice clean Prelude VTEC i'd snap it up. The 4ws gives it slalom handling on par with an Esprit.

 

Regards My friend. I can't say anymore than he worked at Lotus and told me about the design/engineering, he was at the coal face so I trust his words on the development etc. The engineers are great, but the funding is low compared to the likes of FORD, HONDA, BMW etc..

Honda have supposedly never had a warrenty claim on a VTEC unit.

 

Regards the orginal post, as I said before get an S2000 their a great car, even Clarkson likes em!!

 

Oh and I nearly bought an M100