1979 Yellow Lotus Eclat: My project thread

[EXCEL V8]

No - you have to remove shims inboard of the bearing retaining plate to increase the nip - the aim is to create about 0.003" "preload" on the bearing/retaining plate.  Do you have the diff service notes?    I think John may be talking about suspension geometry.

Pete

[soldave]

Will take some measurements mid-week and report back

[soldave]

Right - the garage temperature finally dropped below a million degrees so I've been measuring some nip. Looks to be 0.15mm or thereabouts which is right in spec. So doesn't look to be the source of any issues.

[EXCEL V8]

So if the bearing is seated on the shaft correctly and held in place by the collar and the bearing retaining plate is clamping it all in correctly I can't see how you could have the movement so clearly shown in your video.  Something doesn't add up! 😕.  Did you measure the nip without the o-ring in place?  Looking forward to the next instalment! 🙂

Pete

[soldave]

33 minutes ago, EXCEL V8 said:

So if the bearing is seated on the shaft correctly and held in place by the collar and the bearing retaining plate is clamping it all in correctly I can't see how you could have the movement so clearly shown in your video.  Something doesn't add up! 😕.  Did you measure the nip without the o-ring in place?  Looking forward to the next instalment! 🙂

Pete

Yeah, o-ring is off the car and I had already noted it needs replacing. When checking the nip and with retaining plate pushed hard against the backplate, I tried the inboard driveshaft and there was still that movement. The only thing I can think is that perhaps the collar is right up against the bearing and the inner race of the bearing is tight around the driveshaft, but possibly a mm or so away from where it should be sat. That's all i can think that would explain it, but if that's the case it must have been like that for a couple of years (possible, and I've just not noticed it.

Thanks for the continued advice and thoughts - it must seem a lot like the "let's help Dave try to understand mechanics" thread!

[TAR]

I wouldn't worry Dave, there'll be a few reading this thread and learning something new  

[EXCEL V8]

The bearing should be a really tight fit on the drive shaft - I'd be surprised if you could slide the drive shaft in and out of the bearing (if the collar wasn't snug against it), but if the drive shaft is also worn that could explain the movement.  The plot thickens!

Pete

[soldave]

I think I explained myself wrong - there is no movement of the driveshaft in and out of the bearing. Was just thinking about something wrong.

But... we may have a lead in working out what the hell is going on here. Spent about an hour this evening fitting and refitting the driveshaft, measuring with the feeler gauge (the nip might be closer to 0.1mm to be honest so on the lower side but still well within spec. And then I looked at the setup again.

towards the bottom you see the channel that someone has added as there has been an oil seep from that seal? Nothing new about that - have seen a few pictures of it on here. But reaching around the back of the backplate, I think the right-hand rivet in the picture actually causes interference with the diff housing, causing the backplate not to sit perfectly flat against it.

I need to confirm it all tomorrow but that might be enough to give me that bit of in and out movement. trying not to get ahead of myself but am trying to think now how I would file down the rivet to stop any interference when I have very little room to work pulling backplate out and away from the diff. The manual seems to suggest backplate off is a diff out thing so I want to avoid that. Quickest way would be trying to get a sanding wheel on a dremel or something in there, but given it is right next to the diff it would need cleaning of any oil (wouldn't want to burn the garage down with me and the Lotus in it!), and would need to protect diff entrance from any bits of metal.

I might check tomorrow and realise I'm completely mistaken, but it certainly looked as though there could be some interference, causing the backplate to stand ever so slightly off the diff towards the bottom  of it.

[EXCEL V8]

Good find Dave!  If the oil seal is in good condition you could just drill out the rivets and do without the oil drain.  If there has been a gap there for a while it will need a good clean behind the brake plate.

Pete

[soldave]

Errrr, guys... I might have found what was causing the wheel to feel like it was dragging a bit. Took the hub carrier off and this was the sight that greeted me

Now what in the name of destroyed hub carriers has caused that to do that? All I'm thinking is that when I took the driveshaft to the garage to get pressed into the hub and bearing, they pressed it too much somehow. Everything spun freely before it went on the car but maybe when the hub nut was torqued up to spec (200ft-lbs) it pulled the inner part of the bearing through or something. All I know is that corner is pretty much kaput.

 

New hub carrier, likely a new outboard driveshaft (might be lucky and the hub carrier only took the damage), potentially a new hub depending on what has actually caused this, plus of course the new rear bearing itself). UJs actually seem in fine condition, with no excess play and a full range of smooth movement as you would expect.

 

[EXCEL V8]

If the garage pressed it in correctly by supporting the inner race of the bearing it would be near impossible to press it in too far (of course they may not have done it correctly and that's what damaged the bearing in the first place).  It will probably be the demise of the bearing that has led to the carrier damage.  Such a shame.  Borrow my tool next time - or pop down to Nottingham!

Pete

[soldave]

7 hours ago, EXCEL V8 said:

If the garage pressed it in correctly by supporting the inner race of the bearing it would be near impossible to press it in too far (of course they may not have done it correctly and that's what damaged the bearing in the first place).  It will probably be the demise of the bearing that has led to the carrier damage.  Such a shame.  Borrow my tool next time - or pop down to Nottingham!

Pete

Thanks dude - might come on a quick trip to Nottingham to use that tool once I've got new parts back together, if that would be alright with you.

Just need to get the hubnut off with everything off the car. Got a socket to fit and impact wrench, but only one pair of hands and no clamp. May need to get creative or make a friend to hold the hub in place!

 

[EXCEL V8]

Yep - pop down any time. Be nice to meet up and talk Elites/Eclats.  You might want use of this as well - tool I made to hold the hub while tightening the nut:

 

Pete

[soldave]

And so the wheel bearing saga trundles along to its conclusion, with an ending ranking up there with the final season of Game of Thrones for disappointment! Got the hub off the wrecked hub carrier this evening and managed to take things apart enough to see what's happened.

 

So it looks to my uneducated eyes that the circlip may not have been 100% seated in the groove when things were put back together. Which... well you can see the end result and the cost to get a replacement carrier, bearing etc.

 

Pretty humbling... I wish my skills matched my enthusiasm for trying to do this stuff. I know these things happen but most of my issues seem to be of my own doing. The silver lining to the cloud is that I found an issue with the inboard driveshaft which has now been sorted, found the brake shoes on one side were right at their limit so they've been replaced, and that I probably needed new rear spring insulators. And also, it looks like the outboard driveshaft hasn't been damaged other from colliding with the hub carrier, which took the brunt of the damage

 

Onwards and upwards I guess...

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by soldave

[rjwooll]

Well done for persisting Dave - I think you’ve probably helped a few people now and in the future (if you see what I mean!) Look forward to hearing its back on the road, driving nicely, looking glorious, then hopefully seeing it at the NEC!

[phoenix]

Well done that man. 👍🏻 

[soldave]

New rear wheel bearing on and test drive this morn. Got about half a mile down the road before I noticed a knocking on rotation from paasenger rear end (aka new bearing area)

Got the car back and jacked it up. No noise on rotation. Got creative and jacked the hub carrier up too to add some load, giving you the sound you can hear on the video below. Happens rotating forward and back, once per rotation at different points.

My thinking is when the wheel bearing died and trashed the hub carrier, one or both UJs were damaged too. Seem a fair diagnosis from that sound? The UJs seemed fine when reinstalling but of course no load.

Should say I can't feel any notchiness as it turns or stiffness as it gets to the part where it makes noise. Faster rotation = louder noise.
 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by soldave

[EXCEL V8]

I don't think a drive shaft would make that noise - sounds too hollow.  It sounds brake-drummy/prop-shafty to me.  Try and get to the diff input shaft and feel for any missing teeth on rotating the prop.

Pete

[soldave]

Yeah it does sound like more of a clang the more I heard it than a knock. What's throwing me is that when there's no load on that corner there's no sound at all. Add the load and you get the clang. Once per rotation but a different point when going clockwise and anti-clockwise. And you have to give it a good old spin to get a noise.

Really strange but I'll get driveshaft off and brake drum and see if anything is obvious.

[soldave]

Right, I might have a small lead on this. Baby was sleeping so I dashed to the garage again! Driveshaft bolts loosened individually and still sound there so not the bolts causing collision. Took drum off and inner driveshaft rotates with no sound. So then I got a little creative by my standards and connected driveshaft to inner driveshaft without brake drum. Tightened bolts so they were snug but nottorwued or anything and slowly rotated. Take a look at that random video below for the results.

You see that little bit of movement, that's on the forward and back rotation where it makes the noise. Something is causing some in/out movement when it reaches that point in the rotation. Nowhere else.

The question now is what that "something" is.

 

 

[makepeace]

Kind of looks like the same something that I've been experiencing. It improved after replacing bearings and torquing the hub nut properly and a couple of other things mentioned below, but fairly sure it's still there and only chimes in as a problem at about 80 km/h or so. No heat or anything. What I did notice when putting everything back together was some suspicious arrangement of washers on the diff studs. I changed that to be a bit more uniform and to something that looked "normal", but I think this might be part of it. Then there was also the missing diff stud reinforcement which I added, and I had to jack the chassis out to make it fit @ 400mm centres. My next approach is to do a full refresh on the rear (and front) suspension so that I can get a suspension shop to have a proper look. Looking forward to your investigation.

[soldave]

2 hours ago, makepeace said:

Kind of looks like the same something that I've been experiencing. It improved after replacing bearings and torquing the hub nut properly and a couple of other things mentioned below, but fairly sure it's still there and only chimes in as a problem at about 80 km/h or so. No heat or anything. What I did notice when putting everything back together was some suspicious arrangement of washers on the diff studs. I changed that to be a bit more uniform and to something that looked "normal", but I think this might be part of it. Then there was also the missing diff stud reinforcement which I added, and I had to jack the chassis out to make it fit @ 400mm centres. My next approach is to do a full refresh on the rear (and front) suspension so that I can get a suspension shop to have a proper look. Looking forward to your investigation.

Thanks. The Eclat is undriveable  with the noise it's making so I need to diagnose it and fix it.

Right now I refuse to believe the second replacement bearing I got was dead on arrival but will check the torque on the hubnut to make sure its at 200ft-lbs. What bothers me is that even when the wheel bearing went last time and i was limping the car back home, there wasn't this noise. It seems to have developed either just as I got home or afterwards.

I've had the inboard driveshaft out again today to recheck that and it looks fine. Looks like I hadn't done a great job on seating the o-ring last time so I've put a new o-ring in place. Rotating the inboard driveshaft 180 degrees doesn't see to have moved the "point of clanging", which gives me hope it isn't something in the diff. But I'm also losing confidence it's the UJs too. I do have a pair of new ones though so might just get the driveshaft out and replace them so i can cross it off my list of possible issues.

The only other tiny thing I noted is that as the brake drum rotates with the driveshaft connected, it moves probably a mm or 2 vertically when it gets to that clanging point. My suspicion is that's just an effect of whatever else is wrong rather than it being a brake drum related problem causing this, but thought it worth just dropping into the conversation.

[EXCEL V8]

The brake drum shouldn't move at all when the driveshaft is tightened up.  Try putting some washers under the bolt heads to see if that stops it happening - if it does you can investigate why the bolts are not securing the drum correctly.

Pete

[soldave]

Will do Am also wondering about the outboard driveshaft part that goes through the bearing and hub and whether that took some less noticeable damage. If that's warped a little or something it could be causing the movement both at the hub carrier and maybe backwards putting force on the inner driveshaft and causing that very slight movement in drum.

This is all speculation right now but the UJs and outer driveshaft are probably next to replace.

 

[Trunnion 74]

One thing you could try Dave is get a long reach screwdriver and being methodical, put pointy end on point of interest and other end to your ear whilst rotating the hub., you should hear the clunk. The louder it gets the closer to the problem you are.  Bit low tech but might work.

The other thing is, if the original bearing has not been seated properly due to the circlip moving has this caused movement of the bearing (chatter) this could then have got amplified along the outboard driveshaft and the intermediate driveshaft passing through the UJ's along its way.  Has a needle roller in one of the UJ's failed as a consequence?

Just a thought

Roland