Sound System Upgrade

[swindon_alan]

Yep

Clarion SRG 1023R 4", 200W peak, 30W RMS

Clarion SRG 1733R 6.5" 300W peak, 40W RMS

Alpine are very cagey about their RMS power output but looking around I estimate that the CDE-9880R is 50W peak, 18W RMS. It's a very crisp, clear 18W. Plenty loud enough, when I demonstrated it to my good lady she popped out to get my ear defenders...

[eeyoreish]

Thanks Alan.

18W rms doesn't sound much but if you're getting good performance that tells me something about how 'big' I really need to go with mine. Here I am looking at 75 & 100w rms stuff when 30-40w will probably be plenty...

OK...more to think about then...

[swindon_alan]

Yes, I know. It's a bit of another one of those willy waving competitions I feel. My speakers can easily cope with the head's power output so there's no distortion even at full whack. It really is ****ing loud and almost unbearable at top volume. If you go for a powerful amp, what ya gonna do? Run it at 10% max most of the time?

It's a very subjective thing I understand but I suppose an analogy would be putting a 7 litre Yank V8 in an Esprit but you can't boot it much past tickover as you would just get wheelspin...

[eeyoreish]

I don't disagree.

The main problem I have is that if I want to have the two 6.5" shallow subs in the rear, it looks like I need 100w per channel to run them. Then I need to find some 100w rms 4" speakers for the front, which don't seem to exist...

The other option is just to go for 'normal' 6.5 woofers in the rear rather than subs.

Decisions decisions...

[eeyoreish]

First of all, thanks for all of the comments and advice so far, which have helped me consider various options and kind of led me to where I am now.

Things have moved on a little as I've picked up some lovely new speakers off eBay for a bargain price (£75 for the lot). They are Vibe 'LiteAir' which are powerful component speakers but specifically designed for super cars and are lightweight as well as looking great. So I get power, good looks and a (small) weight saving

[mdw]

Bibs had the tweeters in the ashtrays on my car when he had it.  If  you ever want to change back its probably the easiest to retrim rather than the whole a pillar trim.  The black strip across the bottom of the screen is leather not vynal and can be a git to refit and trim nicely without removing the screen and pulling the whole dash forward.  If the dash or screen is coming out any way then go for it  otherwise it can be done but takes time and care. ( Get a half hide from ebay).

[eeyoreish]

Did the tweets work well in the ashtray area?

Have you still got them there (pic would be great) or did you remove them?

[Bibs]

They were there when I bought the car (in 1999!). They helped the sound but I really didn't like how they looked.

[Alex Carter]

My two penith don't put the tweeters to high in the car you'll get sharp top end the door would be better than the dash

[eeyoreish]

Thanks Alex, that fits with my preferred plan then.

What's your expert opinion on which amp power to go for, given that I've got 75w and 100w rms speakers? I've read so much about the dangers of over and underpowering speakers that I'm really not sure what to do! What would you do?

They were there when I bought the car (in 1999!). They helped the sound but I really didn't like how they looked.

Do you have any photos showing them in place?

I do need to find a way of making them look like they should be there but also making sure the ashtrays can be refitted if required....

[jimblob]

The later esprits have the tweeters just above the door handle which is kinda just above your ash tray so maybe there? or can the ashtray be removed and some sort of blanking plate made to fill its hole with the tweeter in? so you could always just replace the ashtrays later on if you wanted to go back to original. 

[mdw]

I have no idea what they sounded like as I retrimmed them as original before I got it all running and back on the road.   I think you are always  going to be fighting the engine noise over your shoulder no matter what you do.

[eeyoreish]

The later esprits have the tweeters just above the door handle which is kinda just above your ash tray so maybe there? or can the ashtray be removed and some sort of blanking plate made to fill its hole with the tweeter in? so you could always just replace the ashtrays later on if you wanted to go back to original.

Yes, I considered making a new hole there but for the sake of a couple of inches lower I think it makes sense to use the ashtray space and avoid cutting new holes. This seems to fit with Alex's expert view too so looks like the best option.

I'll give some thought to making a custom 'pod' that can integrate into the ashtray space for a flush mounting. The tweeters themselves are only shallow and there's more than enough depth for the ashtrays so it's just a question of coming up with something that looks like it belongs there...

I have no idea what they sounded like as I retrimmed them as original before I got it all running and back on the road.   I think you are always  going to be fighting the engine noise over your shoulder no matter what you do.

The cabin isn't especially noisy when cruising so I'm hopeful that with a reasonable amount of volume and sound quality I'll be happy.

It just gets loud when I hit the go pedal...

[Alex Carter]

I'd use at least a 400 to 600 w amp keep the gain low but this will be at the speakers peak but the signal will be pure no distortion it also means the headunit won't be flat out to make the sound loud again not straining the sound so nice and crisp . The tweeters are simple to mount take out the ash tray and cover the hole with a plastic bag tape this to the door then push into the whole some fibre glass doesn't matter if you add to much just avoid getting it on the door card . Then sand the edges to the desired shape of the original ash tray hole . Use a hole saw on a drill to make the whole for the flush mount tweeter paint or trim the mount as desired if you trim with material sand more than needed as the fabric will take up space around the sides . Then mount the tweeter in the hole it isn't heavy so some hot glue from a gun will hold it from the back . And then secure the fibre glass in the back with some small screws . Simple effect but the results will look and sound great

[eeyoreish]

I'd use at least a 400 to 600 w amp keep the gain low but this will be at the speakers peak but the signal will be pure no distortion it also means the headunit won't be flat out to make the sound loud again not straining the sound so nice and crisp . 

Thanks again Alex for your advice.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that I should opt for an amp at the higher power end, ie 100w rms per channel and keep the gain low for the front speakers, rather than go for a 75w per channel and be running it at full whack to drive the 100w rears?

[Alex Carter]

Exactly

[eeyoreish]

Thanks Alex!

[brianc]

Thanks again Alex for your advice.

So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that I should opt for an amp at the higher power end, ie 100w rms per channel and keep the gain low for the front speakers, rather than go for a 75w per channel and be running it at full whack to drive the 100w rears?

Good practice to ensure that the speakers are not damaged.  The problem with running a small amp flat out into speakers is that the clipping that occurs basically means that there is an excessive DC component which will fry the speaker coils.

And remember the golden rule with audio output power (which follows a logarithmic scale) - to double the perceived volume - 10x the input power is required.

[MikieP]

Hi Neil,

Just found this topic. Need to keep in mind that the tweets need to not be blocked by body parts of yours or co-pilot or you will not hear them. I would think that a small box mounted in the corners of the dash would give better dispersion to both passengers as the signals would bounce off the windscreen without fear of being blocked otherwise. Channel separation may suffer but better to hear both than only one, or, none. It is always better to have more power available to the speakers than to under power them for a number or reasons... Clipping can destroy the amp, the voice coils can sometimes overheat due to DC voltages out of the amp and the sound will stink. Cleaner sound is always better than clipping. I have also found using the Alpine CD Library I have (mostly Trance stuff) and Sirius Tuner I have it sounds better when louder than the exhaust and that can sometimes take some power. but the speaker efficiencies will come into play there as well. Make sure the amp 's power ratings is the same as the loads the speaker will present: i.e. speakers may be rated at 100W @ 4 ohm, the amp should also be rated at 4 Ohms with the stated power you wish to provide to them. An amp rated at 100 watts @ 2 Ohm it will only provide something like 40-50 watts into 4 Ohm speakers so keep that in mind.

Also, see here: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_28108_VIBE-Audio-Lite-Air-6-V1-LITEA6-V1.html

 

Cheers!

Edited September 21, 2015 by MikieP

[eeyoreish]

Thanks Mikie. 

Im aiming for a 4 channel x 100w rms amp which will be perfect for my 6.5s and slightly over powered for the 4" in the front. With the gain turned down for the fronts (as per Alex's advice) it should be perfect. The speakers and amp will be matched at 4 ohms.

Ive decided that the ashtray locations are the only realistic option for the tweeters and they won't be obscured by anything there, which is ideal.

 

[MikieP]

Watch out for Tinnitus! lol.

[fjmuurling]

A little bit late but this is my install in the boot.

 

 

[MikieP]

This was done by the PO in my car. I have replaced speakers in the dash and rear bulkhead since purchasing car though. Smaller amp is for the Sub-woofer which is placed inside a box and then located in the passenger's foot well. Carpet and an additional board were laid over these amps so trunk space lost was about two inched in depth. Very nicely done INMO.

[eeyoreish]

A little bit late but this is my install in the boot.

 

 

Do you control it using the gear cables?? ?

Depending on the physical size of the amp I get I might look at mounting it in the same place as it'll be less intrusive than if it were at the front of the boot.

[MikieP]

Lol! PO ran all the wiring through the tunnel I think. Not really sure where all the stuff goes but it does reappear at rear of the Tuner's jacks! I did add the Sirius tuner and a 5 cdrom library into the front bonnet where the spare tire would normally sit and a MP3 plug along side the passenger foot well too. it just works and I numbered all amp connections so when the trunk flooring needs to be removed, all the wires hopefully come back to the correct connections. The amps are tied directly to the battery next to it and switched by the head. I am going to leave them there so I can still be able to drill the hole to unlock the trunk when the cable snaps.