Esprit Turbo project car - part3 - the further continuation

[Lotusfab]

Steve, go and watch the movies!

The facts are Matts car has not been resprayed and was Copper Fire. The Bond car was Copper Fire. 

From the samples above its obvious to me the A19 is not the original paint formulation. Look at the density and size of the aluminium flakes. It's far too reflective. Imagine photographing this against a snow backdrop. They had the same reflection problems with the white car and blacked out the chrome.

I don't believe the paint will have changed over 30 years to something that has no resemblance to the original. Indeed the density and size of metal flakes doesn't change with time. I personally want some a car that looks identical to the original Bond car in the museum.  This could be debated forever as it's very subjective. It's for you all to look at the evidence and make up your own minds whether or not you think A19 is the correct colour or the Lechler paint match. Eventually I plan to take a piece of my car to Miami and compare it with the original.  

 

 

[910Esprit]

3 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Steve, go and watch the movies!

On my todo list, along with Starwars!

[Lotusfab]

How have you got this far without watching Star Wars, let alone the Spy Who Loved Me (a Lotus must!).

[LOTUSMAN33]

Good work Fabian, I prefer the matched paint to the A19 card and agree it does look more like the movie car. By the time Neil has lacquered, flat and polished it will look superb.

Talking to Mark at Stocks recently he had similar issues with the Essex Blue as stock paint was nothing like his original colour on either cars. Let me know when he applies colour and I will pop down and do you some pics.

Dave :-) 

[Lotusfab]

Thanks Dave.

[TAR]

It's going to look superb whichever colour you choose.  

[CHANGES]

9 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

This could be debated forever as it's very subjective. It's for you all to look at the evidence and make up your own minds whether or not you think A19 is the correct colour or the Lechler paint match

Just an observation...... have you looked at  A19 in the original ICI formulated paint..  or are you just using Lechler paint as your pigment source....  You can tint anything to match a sample from the base code , BUT the base code will only be the closest match from the original paint supplier..   Considering you are going to so much trouble to get this match , i am curious why you have not gone to other paint manufacturers first to make detailed comparisons, or even ICI  ( I believe its PPG now)   Quality automotive paint suppliers like Glasurit, and sikkens, would give you a very comparative formulation..   As i said before A19 from different suppliers will all differ slightly, then you blend or tint in..  Just because your Lechler A19 code interpretation does not match your sample does not mean that the code A19 is wrong,,, it is the Lechler  interpretation that is out which needs tinting which you have done.... end of .. you will get a match from this for what you need.  But don't expect it to match edge to edge with other examples on other Esprits of same colour.  As i said before there are to many variables in application which is why we always blend to match in the industry..    Your chosen body shop should be able to provide you with what you need , i can not see what all the fuss is about 

10 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Eventually I plan to take a piece of my car to Miami and compare it with the original.  

 

This seems a little obsessive,   If you desperately need yours to match this example in Miami , what the hell are you doing getting the paint tinted to match another example.. they will all be slightly different if edge to edged.. 

Work with what you have, even if its a shade or two out to what ever example being compared to , no one will see it when it stands on its own..      

[Lotusfab]

Thanks for all the information, I have learned a lot about paint. Right or wrong I'm going with the colour match as above - I could be wrong but I  believe it will produce a more faithful replica than the other options. I will be in Miami at some point, so it will be fun to take a sample and compare it with the museum Bond car in the Deezer collection and see how close we got!

When it's done you all can decide whether or not it matches up, until then it's back onto the chassis and the rest of the resto.

[Fridge]

I agree with @CHANGES having recently looked at Monaco White from two different manufacturers. Comparing them in daylight to a base coat, they were noticeably creamy. We ended up going with the ICI version, which was a better match and has the correct look.

I didn't want to go with the base coat and clear coat version to be in keeping with the age of the car.

To be honest, unless another Copper Fire Esprit is next to the original Bond car no one is going to know. Each will look as good as each other, and in their own way. There are so many more factors, such as the extent and execution of the restoration, and those minor cosmetic, but not insignificant differences such as tyre choice and stance. As well as my favourite, correct period number plates. So many classics use plates with the wrong font for the period, as plate manufacturers sometimes use current fonts in an old style plate.

Each to their own I suppose.

[Andyww]

The above all makes sense. I had assumed the samples in the picture had come from an ICI  (PPG) paint mix system but if not, that might explain the apparent difference in the A19 code.

It would be interesting to see an A19 sample from a PPG system.

[Lotusfab]

Not wanting to keep this thread going and keen to progress the chassis, but at the same time curious to learn more - I contacted PPG.

PPG bought ICI and several distributors including Autocolor and Browns Brothers. I spoke to the disributor who said the original formulation A19 is not available in their data base? They said some of the components in these old formulations were lead based and had to be replaced. The base coat is now water based?  They could not supply the colour and suggested matching a part of the car? Could be I was unlucky with the person I spoke to, but they did seem to know what they are talking about? 

I post this out of interest,  as I would compare the PPG A19 if I could get a test card, but I have to say the fuel cap match just looks right to me.

 

 

[Lotusfab]

Meanwhile the chassis has stopped at the brake lines. I'm having problems with the cooling pipes. Theres slight pitting on the ends due corrosion and I'm still deciding whether or not to replace them. I can't proceed until they are in place. Should resolve this over the next few days.

I then have the problem of sourcing all of the silicone pipes.

[v8vantage]

2 hours ago, Lotusfab said:

Meanwhile the chassis has stopped at the brake lines. I'm having problems with the cooling pipes. Theres slight pitting on the ends due corrosion and I'm still deciding whether or not to replace them. I can't proceed until they are in place. Should resolve this over the next few days.

I then have the problem of sourcing all of the silicone pipes.

JB Weld is your friend with pitting on metal. The restorers over here use it and then powder coat over it or paint with POR15. POR15 also does an epoxy the is sandable and works really well on metal. Your Copper Paint will look fab Fab!

[Lotusfab]

Hi Roo, thanks will take a look at that, a neat solution! 

Love the JPS link. The car just gets better with age!

[Fridge]

Simply replace the aluminium pipes whilst you've got the chassis stripped.

You'll spend nearly as much on half baked remedial work, and just as long, if not longer making repairs.

It's not worth cutting such corners in my opinion. They're not too expensive after all.

[Lotusfab]

Front suspension arm 

Back to the important stuff, has anyone tried using a Protech damper on the early front suspension arm? There's only this way if you wish to access the knob but the arm has restricted movement before the adjuster hits?? Is this a problem?

If the knob gets bent the damper will probably fail!

[silverfrost]

I have no idea of the protechs on the early suspension Fabian,  but that seems like a crazy idea ?  Like you say the possible damage to the adjustment knob,  not to mention that you will not ever be able to adjust it when the suspension spring is fitted 

I personally would convert to having the fronts adjustable,  Hilly has a write up in his thread about fitting adjustable front shocks to the pre 85 esprits.  Yes i know it is not period correct but some things need to catch up with the times.  Worth considering IMO.  

[Andyww]

The previous owner of my car had Protechs fitted by Morland Jones (I can mention the name as they no longer exist!) and they not surprisingly had the adjusters sheared off for that exact reason. As the detent on the adjustment is within the knob, this meant the adjustment was free to turn to wherever it felt like.

I sent them back to Protech for repair which to their credit they did free of charge but then I had to grind the adjusters into a conical shape and also grind away a small amount of the lower spring platform to make them fit.

If I were doing it again I would fit the factory front shocks from the later cars and remove the spring platforms, or maybe even splash out on the Lotus-spec Bilsteins. I would much rather have dampers which were specced by Roger Becker than some third party company.

The Protechs are a single-adjustable shock so you cant adjust the bump/rebound ratio. I am pretty sure this ratio is wrong for the fronts on the Esprit. It never feels quite right. With the Protechs I cant get the ride quality anything close to my F328 which has factory-fit Bilsteins depite the Esprit having a much better, stiffer chassis.

The front-adjustable mod seems pretty involved. Once the spring height on the standard setup is correct (took me 3 spring purchases!) the standard is OK. There seems to be a slight concern with the modded setup whereby the full car weight is borne by the bolt through the lower shock mount. This runs into a non-reinforced hole in the lower link as this was not designed to take car weight, only damping forces.

[skiing]

I had the same with my pro-techs as well - I don't think they are great. The knobs on mine have come off altogether. Would be much happier if I could convert to the later spec fronts instead...

[silverfrost]

Andyww,  

Yes i see your point about the bottom arm been a weak point, and relying on that one bolt,   If you look at the post 85 bottom arm it is a full box section obviously with another arm that connects to the chassis unlike the pre 85 that relies on the anti roll bar to keep in straight 

However if you look at the bottom arm on the pre 85 it is just a U shaped piece of steel and could well do with boxing in,  i.e add a plate to the top so it is no longer a U section and would become a box section,  also around where the bottom shock bolt goes through could have extra bit of plate welded on the outside to strengthen it up.  

I actually do not mind the pre 85 suspension with regards it incorperates the front anti roll bar,  it is just i cant live with trunnions i cant live with ! And welding up the chassis to fit the later suspension is a lot of work not to mention the extra cost in getting all the new bits.  The canley upright looked fantastic but an open to the elements bottom ball joint and bits that need welding on just put me right off sadly.

Still cant see why someone like lotusbits or such like has not done this, i.e you send your bottom arms off they weld in a new section to take a ball joint, then provide you with a new upright !  safe upgrade in my eyes, the trunnions belong on stuff that resembles for model T looking cars lol. 

[Andyww]

Funny, at Silverstone Classic at the weekend we were "trunnion spotting", all the early Lotus race cars used exactly the same ones. But despite the higher speeds I would think the loadings on a 60's race car would be quite low with the light weight and narrow tyres.

[silverfrost]

It is the only reason i will not use them as wide front tyres kill them,  They are a major weak spot and they look sxxt !   You look at the pre 85 rolling chassis and i admire its looks and design,  lovely alloy rear hubs,  race car looking chassis layout,  independant suspension,  Galvanised suspension components then you see the jurassic brass item jumping right out at you lol 

[Rolls]

On 30/07/2017 at 21:22, 910Esprit said:

On my todo list, along with Starwars!

Sorry folks - we need to revisit this comment from Steve.

Not watching FYEO is bad enough. But Star Wars - surely you jest? Someone from Manchester lend him the DVD's. 

For god sake man - you haven't lived!

 

[Lotusfab]

Just picked up another batch of plating and powder coated stuff. The whole car is 95 percent done. It makes such a difference in time saving and finish. Some of the bolts are like new and  in zinc and so are the studs! Now I just need to get it all back together!

[Andyww]

Spot the trunnion.