S3 turbo Duratec conversion

[stevetsl]

Hi

Looking for some advice please if anyone can help

I have made a start on the conversion and the existing engine will be out shortly, in the meantime I am looking around for a suitable donor engine and have settled on the 3.0 V6 Jaguar S type. To give the Citroen SM gearbox an easier life I am planning on using a dual mass flywheel which basically means I am looking for an engine from a manual car which seem quite rare, those I have found have done mega mileage. There seems to be plenty around from autos so my question is.

If I use the thin plate with the starter ring gear from an auto what options have I got for the dmf and clutch. Would the bolt pcd in the end of the crankshaft let me use a Mondeo dmf if I removed the starter ring gear ( I know the Mondeo ring gear would not mesh with the Jaguar starter motor ). How thick would the adaptor plate be

If this would work which clutch plate and release bearing would be the most suitable.

One other question at the moment

Will the inlet manifold from a ST200 fit directly onto the Jaguar injectors with the throttle body at the rear of the car ?

Hope someone has done this and can help.

Thanks

 

Steve

[Bibs]

@punky can more than likely help mate

https://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/8126-30-v6-conversion/

[cobraesprit]

Why do you want to use a dual mass flywheel. The best option would be to machine a flywheel to suit your needs and not to use a dual mass as they are extremely unreliable. 

[punky]

Hi Steve.

How's the conversion going?

To the best of my knowledge.

The thin plate may not be strong enough on its own as its usually bolted to a torque converter and i think the Mondeo crankshaft PCD is different.

 

I've just had this made up for mine.

The problem is you have a different gearbox, and a different bell housing/clutch fork/starter arrangement.

I understand what you are saying about DMF but Its a heavy lump of steel to carry around, and you will still need to modify it for your input shaft, as I did.

This helped determine the thickness of the adaptor plate.

The new flywheel is half the weight and a much better option IMHO.

The rest of it consists of custom made centre plate and the Jaguar cover plate.

The new release bearing (top right) is half Esprit half Transit van.

 

 

 

15 hours ago, stevetsl said:

Will the inlet manifold from a ST200 fit directly onto the Jaguar injectors with the throttle body at the rear of the car ?

No, but I recommend the upper and lower inlet manifold from a1999-2004 3.0 Ford Maverick (Escape) or Mazda equivalent, which I have now.

 

Or maybe from an ST220..but you may need the lower manifold and fuel rail as well.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222213161702?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

@Bibs  Some of the original V6 conversion thread has disappeared. Odd chunks of it are missing.

I think it happened after one of the upgrades, are you able to retrieve it?

 

[cor]

on the lexus engine conversion i use the thin plate with the ring gear for the starter and am making a aluminium flywheel with insert for the clutch.

For the gear box i use the audi six speed diesel unit which is cheap and easy to obtain.

[stevetsl]

Thanks for the replies

 

What is the verdict re dmf - v - solid flywheel, my logic was to help the Citroen box, everything I have read indicates it would ease the loading on gearshifts but I would appreciate more input.

Punky

We spoke on the phone a couple of weeks ago but I have misplaced you number, I have taken you advice and got myself an Esprit chassis to use as the setup jig, just trying to find a suitable engine now, I suppose if I follow your lead with the specially made flywheel I could buy an engine from an auto ?

The dmf or not decision is all that is stopping me from making some progress, that and the reluctance of the current engine wanting to leave its resting place.

 

Buddsy

I am going to hang on to the engine, the mods I am doing will all be reversible, some future owner may want to convert it back.

 

Cor

Would be interested to know more about your conversion, what is the engine model you are using, have you any more info on your flywheel plans, The Audi box is not really an option for me as mine has the inboard discs ( unless you have come up with a way of mounting the inboard brakes to the Audi box )

 

Steve

[cor]

Steve,

i am using the 1UZFE engine, an oldy, gets new internals, kelford cams reworked ports and bmw m3 itb"s.

Thought a lot of which engine to use and in the end came to this....

I have already put a lot of effort in this but still have a long way to go... I have a thread on here in projects and restoration room.

The flywheel will be made of 6061 T6 aluminium with an insert for the clutch plate, same as a fidanza flywheel.

When more of the work is visible i will add it to my thread.

Succes with your conversion will look great!

[stevetsl]

Hi Cor

That is a nice looking engine, is it ok on length to fit the engine bay, I would like to consider something like that but am stuck with the Citroen box due to the inboard discs. Do you know if anyone has ever used another box and managed to do an inboard disc modification.

If an alternative gearbox is not possible I am stuck with something like the Duratec engine which the Citroen box can just about handle, however another thought is the cost of having the box rebuilt would go a long way towards the cost of a gearbox conversion

[silverfrost]

Hi Steve

The old gearbox will be fine power wise, IMO stay well away from a dual mass flywheel, in my eyes terrible invention that should of never made the production line. ! 

I would take the opportunity to upgrade to a Renault box or Audi box but both carry either expense or lots of fabrication. 

Fit later trailing arms and rear hub carrier to give you outboard brakes and fit the Renault box, and use Punkys bell housing adaptor, but rear wheel pcd will be changed, custom adaptor or bespoke hub sorts that.  Downside costly.

Other option Renault box, custom driveshafts and custom rear outboard brakes, I used an Audi set up on my v8 conversion with a simple adaptor bolted to the rear carrier. Upside less expense but some machine time needed.

Look forward to what ever option you go for 

Regards Dan

[stevetsl]

Hi Dan

Thanks for your comments, I will probably go with the Citroen box and send it to DS Vitesse for an overhaul, in the meantime I am not discounting something like an Audi box if I could somehow adapt it to inboard discs, may buy one and see if it is possible. The conversion costs may be similar to the overhaul costs. I have looked at pictures of the Audi boxes and there is a pcd of holes around the drive shaft adaptors which look as though mounting a bracket to them for the calipers may be possible.

Do you know if anyone has done such a conversion ?

Steve

[punky]

Hi steve!

Manual engines can be hard to find. Safest bet is to get the best engine you can and worry about the flywheel and clutch later.

Also with the engines I've purchased, I always try to get as many connected bits as possible inc. Pipes, tubes, wires/looms and connectors to name a few.

Its not essential but can be helpful when putting it all together.

Was the engine you went to see any good?

As far as inlet manifolds go. Try searching eBay for "ford maverick breaking" and get a deal on the upper and lower manifolds, fuel rail, injectors and throttle body complete.

You can also search german eBay for Ford Maverick Ansaugkrümmer.

The 3.0L mazda Tribute is pretty much the same car with the same manifolds as well.

There are a lot of V6 Duratec goodies out there, a lot of which will fit the Jag variant.

Good luck!

[silverfrost]

Hi Steve

As punky says take as much as you can with a donor engine as all those little parts add up in cost when you need to buy them or you can also spend ages searching for little bits also.

You may well be very wise keeping the s3 transmission.  The Audi box does have a load of bolt holes by the driveshaft output flange on both sides. As the gearbox mounts as standard are housed there.

You could easily mount the calliper mounting brackets on a custom gearbox mount or build it as a complete unit. 

I may do this myself on my current conversion as it keeps with the lotus design of reducing un sprung weight and you could also keep the lotus driveshafts as distance would not be a problem so no need for custom driveshafts.

My only concern is extra stress on the transmission bearings from the discs that the box was not intended to carry. That would be my main concern otherwise a good option in my eyes as any common brake set up could be used.

[stevetsl]

Hi Dan

Well it has moved on a little today, I have bought an S type engine on Ebay showing 80 K miles, I am collecting it on Sunday and will get as many of the bits and pieces as I can. It is out of an auto so I may use the thin plate and ring gear which comes with it and look at making a flywheel myself and do as Punky has done using a standard Jaguar cover plate and have special friction plate made, need to decide at some point whether to keep the Citroen box or look at the Audi box or even a Porsche box.

I was planning on keeping the Lotus engine and box thinking that at some future point when it may be sold it could be converted back to standard, but thinking about it anyone wanting a standard car would probably not be looking at mine, I may be better selling the existing engine and box and use the proceeds towards the conversion.

Re the braking stress on the transmission, would this not be the same whether the brakes were inboard or outboard ?

[silverfrost]

Hi Steve

Inboard will have a possible affect on the gearbox as the extra weight of the brake discs hang of the transmission output flange, it may be a small amount but still extra load on the bearings non the less.

Regarding the lotus engine and box I would keep them myself and store and just it over by hand every now and then, not cheap items to obtain now given the rise in prices. Add in to the equation future prices and used engines and transmissions needed by other owners in the future, the demand is higher than supply.  Wrecked 912 engines are touching the 700 mark on flea bay now and these are incomplete also so god knows what they will be in a few years maybe 2 to 3 k .

Imo I would hold onto them as for what they give you cash wise to put towards the conversion will bare little in comparison to what you will have to pay in the future to buy the items back to fit in the car.

Regards Dan

[stevetsl]

Hi All

Collected the S type engine today, all looks good.

Next decision is do I use the Citroen box or an Audi box and convert it to inboard brakes or go to outboard brakes.

 4 questions please

1. If I use an Audi box which would be the best one to go for to convert to inboard brakes

2. Would it be the same Audi box if I converted to outboard brakes

3. Is anyone breaking a later car with all the parts I need to go outboard, what sort of price could I expect to pay

4. Would the parts to convert fit directly onto my S3 chassis

 

Thanks

Steve

[eddie111S]

Hey Punky,

My cars almost done now, after 2.5yrs off the road. Need your set up parameters for Megasquirt. Nigel & I would like to come and visit you after Christmas if possible. I PM'ed you. Almost there with the S type 3litre engine....

[punky]

Hi Eddie/Nigel

Great to see the engine in the car!

PM me your Email address and I'll send you the megasquirt ini file that I'm using at the mo.

You are more than welcome to pop over for a look. I must say tho that it was my brother in law who was the brains behind all the electronics and engine management!

[stevetsl]

Hi

Took the engine and box out of the car today, start cleaning up the engine bay next.

Already got the Jaguar V6 engine and need to start on the Citroen gearbox adaptor plate next unless anyone can help with a drawing please.

Thinking of advertising the engine for sale, what sort of price could I expect ?

[stevetsl]

Hi All

Before I get the measuring gear out, can anyone assist with a drawing for the adaptor plate to connect the V6 Duratec engine to the Citroen gearbox please.

[punky]

Hi Steve

To get mine for the Renault box, I took my bell housing to a machine shop that had a coordinate measuring machine and they made a CAD trace of the bolt hole and input shaft hole positions. They then overlaid the bolt hole coordinates from the engineering drawing of the AJ30 engine that I sent you, and from that made up the final design.

Previous to this I made a rough design of one myself out of MDF which was accurate and strong enough to enable me to bolt the engine and gearbox together so I could  drop them into the engine bay for test fitting and decide the final thickness and shape of the adaptor plate. It was also helpful to have a mock up of the design to show the machine shop as some holes are threaded and some countersunk.

Hope this helps.

[stevetsl]

Hi Andy

 

Does the Renault box have the same mounting dimensions as the Citroen box, I am assuming they do as they attached to the same engine, I have already done the trace as you suggested and made a trace of the bellhousing, just really looking for confirmation of the hole positions.

From the drawing work done it is looking as though the new flywheel will be 50 mm wide and the software puts it at 7.5 Kg, the adaptor plate will be 20 mm wide.

Thinking ahead to the fuel system, which pump did you use and did you use a fuel pressure regulator.

[punky]

I'm using a gravity fed swirl pot, an external Bosch pump (not sure of the spec) and an adjustable regulator. All Purchased from Ebay over 10 years ago.

I would try to improve and simplify this next time though by using alloy tanks with a built in sump and an in-tank fuel pump.

Its probably worth pulling your tanks out for a look while you can get to them as well.

[silverfrost]

Very good idea Punky on the custom tanks with everything already inside  

[stevetsl]

I`ve taken the easy route and replaced the offside tank with an aluminium unit from SJ, the other tank was in good condition and has cleaned up and gone back in.

Current status is the rear suspension is off the car and will be shotblasted and painted, have polyu bushes and Spax shock absorbers fitted in the next couple of weeks.

The new flywheel and adaptor plate have been designed in 3D Solidworks and will be ready in around a weeks time, aim is to have the engine and box in the spare chassis around end of February, will post some pictures of the parts when ready.

Fuel system is coming together and looks as though it will be from tank to new low pressure fuel pump - fuel filter - swirl pot - high pressure fuel pump - pressure regulator valve - injector rail.

Following Punky`s advice I have acquired the inlet manifold from a V6 Maverick, this was supposed to come with all the injector wiring and plugs but non of the plugs fit and I think they have just chucked in any old loom they had, I am hoping the Jaguar injector loom will fit the Maverick injectors but I know the throttle position sensor plug is different, anyone know where I can get the correct 3 pin plug ?

Has anyone actually fitted this combination of Jaguar V6 engine and Citroen box with the side mounted clutch arm ? I can see some issues with the position of the clutch slave cylinder actuation rod and the exhaust downpipe, don`t think it will be a show stopper though.

 

[silverfrost]

Glad to see this is coming along well Steve    Hard to set goals with engine conversions as something always pops up to wreck your plans timewise 

Really looking forward to seeing some pics on this as conversions on esprits are pretty thin on the ground these days.  

Looking forward to updates and pics