Red Turbo Esprit recommission project

[Guest gbowick]

Just look in the place where you think that there's absolutely no chance that the cage might have gone and that's where you'll find it!!

[top-plumber]

[swindon_alan]

Love the first picture. Very atmospheric and almost car gang wars! Are they just about to take down the Porker boys?

[top-plumber]

Well the wheels look good. The number 1 piston.... not so good.

caught it just in time. Amazed it was running when I put it in the garage. Bit disappointed that it was in such poor condition, just as well I decided to rebuild anyway. 

 

[cbclotus]

Hi Wayne .Both cars look fantastic .Good luck with your engine ....Mike

[Dave Eds]

Which car is the piston from mate?

[top-plumber]

16 hours ago, Dave Eds said:

Which car is the piston from mate?

From the white car Dave. Going to upgrade all the internals but didn’t expect to find a melted piston. Gotta grind the crank and all new mains and ends. New light weight rods and flywheel. Forged pistons and nikasil liners and alunox manifold on gas flowed head. Maybe water/meth injection to cool the charge. Gonna be great. Just need to sell the red car. Then pick up a little Elan run around ✌️

[pete]

wow do you think the PO had an inkling

[Gotti]

The red one looks great!

Maybe a stupid question: I am under a full engine rebuild with my dry sump Esprit.My crankshaft is damaged were the gearbox input shaft fits the spigot bearing.The spigot bearing is too far depressed into the crankshaft,so the input shaft couldnt reach the bearing,thats what my engine rebuilder told me.It looks pretty the same like your photo you posted...

[ChrisJ]

3 hours ago, top-plumber said:

Then pick up a little Elan run around

How about an Excel?

[top-plumber]

6 hours ago, pete said:

wow do you think the PO had an inkling

Hard to say Pete. He seemed pretty genuine to me but who knows. 

[top-plumber]

On 22/10/2017 at 18:12, Gotti said:

The red one looks great!

Maybe a stupid question: I am under a full engine rebuild with my dry sump Esprit.My crankshaft is damaged were the gearbox input shaft fits the spigot bearing.The spigot bearing is too far depressed into the crankshaft,so the input shaft couldnt reach the bearing,thats what my engine rebuilder told me.It looks pretty the same like your photo you posted...

That’s not the first time I have heard of that problem. Sparky was telling me about an engine he rebuilt abroad ( Sweden I think) that had a trashed crank for that reason. I’m not sure what is correct. Post a photo of your crank shaft and I will check my service manual. 

[Gotti]

Hi Wayne!

My crankshaft is not damaged,thank god i was wrong!!!  My issue was the Spigot bearing spacer fom Sj,it was too short so my rebuilder could press the bearing too far into  the crankshaft and the input shaft had only reached into the bearing about 2mm. The end of my crankshaft had a little countersink,so i was thinking it is damaged but this is original! We machined a correct spacer and all is perfect now.

Tim Engel postet this somewhere.....
The end of the crankshaft should have a countersink around the center bore... ie, a cone/ funnel shaped recess surrounding the center bore. The needle bearing is pressed in until it's flush with the surrounding flat end of the crank, NOT to the bottom of the countersink. It looks like it's protruding from the hole, but it's still at or below flush with the surrounding flat end of the crank. Do you have the Service Notes (workshop manual). In section Q, Clutch, there's a cross-section of the rear of the crank showing how the bearing is supposed to be positioned.

So it looks like your bearing is too far depressed into the crankshaft because prior to your ownership the gearbox inputshaft had eaten in to the crankshaft after a inputshaft circlip failure.I think your input shaft will extend in to the bearing only 1-2mm,i dont know if this is a big problem or not.Maybe another TLF member here knows more about it!

My crankshaft looks like this....

[Gotti]

[top-plumber]

7 hours ago, Gotti said:

Hi Wayne!

My crankshaft is not damaged,thank god i was wrong!!!  My issue was the Spigot bearing spacer fom Sj,it was too short so my rebuilder could press the bearing too far into  the crankshaft and the input shaft had only reached into the bearing about 2mm. The end of my crankshaft had a little countersink,so i was thinking it is damaged but this is original! We machined a correct spacer and all is perfect now.

Tim Engel postet this somewhere.....
The end of the crankshaft should have a countersink around the center bore... ie, a cone/ funnel shaped recess surrounding the center bore. The needle bearing is pressed in until it's flush with the surrounding flat end of the crank, NOT to the bottom of the countersink. It looks like it's protruding from the hole, but it's still at or below flush with the surrounding flat end of the crank. Do you have the Service Notes (workshop manual). In section Q, Clutch, there's a cross-section of the rear of the crank showing how the bearing is supposed to be positioned.

So it looks like your bearing is too far depressed into the crankshaft because prior to your ownership the gearbox inputshaft had eaten in to the crankshaft after a inputshaft circlip failure.I think your input shaft will extend in to the bearing only 1-2mm,i dont know if this is a big problem or not.Maybe another TLF member here knows more about it!

My crankshaft looks like this....

That’s a good diagnosis of my gearbox. The circlip on the input shaft has come adrift. The crank is out of the car so I shall be checking the spigot bearing depth and restoring the circlip issue. Glad your crankshaft is in good order after all. 

Wayne

[top-plumber]

On 26/10/2017 at 21:54, top-plumber said:

That’s a good diagnosis of my gearbox. The circlip on the input shaft has come adrift. The crank is out of the car so I shall be checking the spigot bearing depth and restoring the circlip issue. Glad your crankshaft is in good order after all. 

Wayne

 

On 26/10/2017 at 14:46, Gotti said:

This is the engine that I have just stripped down and it has a counter sink that acts as a leading edge to guide the spigot Home when replacing the gearbox. So this is the third crankshaft that I have worked with that has this counter bore with the bearing inserted. If you consider that with a spacer pushing the bearing forward means a section of the spigot bearing inserted is not actually in contact with any metal and in effect is suspended. I’m not convinced that lotus missed out a spacer behind the spigot bearing. 

I do see what you say in the service notes.

did you have the thrust washer in place? None of mine have..?

[Gotti]

The countersink is ok on the crankshaft and original.On some engines the spigot bearing moves into the crankshaft.Some push a spacer (i did this too) behind the bearing to prevent this problem.SJ sells that spacer but that was too short for my crank.Look at the picture above....a little section of the bearing have no contact with the metal.My rebuilder shook his head too..Yes i have the thrust washer in place.Wee took all measurements from the engine and gearbox and we have found out:With the bearing depressed until its flush with the flat end of the crank and the thrust washer installed  and the gearbox attached to the engine the inputshaft is pushed back into the box (springloaded input shaft with the circlip intact) about 2 mm.By the way the thickness of the Nylatron thrust washer is 3,5 mm.

I,m just asking in the  "Esprit project and restoration room"  section  because the Engine  installation!! The height of my garage is only 238 cm so i want to install the engine and gearbox separately!How did you do it?Engine first then gearbox or gearbox first then Engine?Maybe you have time to look at my question!?

Good luck with your Engine rebuild!

[Andyww]

I might be wrong but to me, only the picture of the "clean" engine looks correct as per the service notes. But the other above pictures look like the end of the input shaft has unfortunately ground away the crank to make the countersink larger and rounded off as are the ends of the splines on the shaft.

[top-plumber]

19 hours ago, Gotti said:

The countersink is ok on the crankshaft and original.On some engines the spigot bearing moves into the crankshaft.Some push a spacer (i did this too) behind the bearing to prevent this problem.SJ sells that spacer but that was too short for my crank.Look at the picture above....a little section of the bearing have no contact with the metal.My rebuilder shook his head too..Yes i have the thrust washer in place.Wee took all measurements from the engine and gearbox and we have found out:With the bearing depressed until its flush with the flat end of the crank and the thrust washer installed  and the gearbox attached to the engine the inputshaft is pushed back into the box (springloaded input shaft with the circlip intact) about 2 mm.By the way the thickness of the Nylatron thrust washer is 3,5 mm.

I,m just asking in the  "Esprit project and restoration room"  section  because the Engine  installation!! The height of my garage is only 238 cm so i want to install the engine and gearbox separately!How did you do it?Engine first then gearbox or gearbox first then Engine?Maybe you have time to look at my question!?

Good luck with your Engine rebuild!

I put engine then gearbox..✌️

18 hours ago, Andyww said:

I might be wrong but to me, only the picture of the "clean" engine looks correct as per the service notes. But the other above pictures look like the end of the input shaft has unfortunately ground away the crank to make the countersink larger and rounded off as are the ends of the splines on the shaft.

The splines are chamfered at the very end. No wear I’m glad to say. Whats got me puzzled is the counter bore issue. Why is it there if the bearing is supposed to be flush. ?

[top-plumber]

This was my S4 and as can me seen the bearing has slipped forward when I removed the gearbox, but the bearing itself is a ball race and a lot larger. It fitted the counter bore perfectly as I recal. But this is a later car so why is the counterbore present on the earlier car when a needle roller bearing was used. Does anyone know what vehicle lotus took these crankshafts from or were that “ in-house” manufactured?

[Andyww]

1 hour ago, top-plumber said:

I put engine then gearbox..✌️

The splines are chamfered at the very end. No wear I’m glad to say. Whats got me puzzled is the counter bore issue. Why is it there if the bearing is supposed to be flush. ?

Exactly. Maybe its not supposed to be there.

Later cars had a large parallel recess for a ball bearing thrust bearing. The picture Gotti posted above shows this and appears to have the wrong type of bearing installed. Waynes picture above shows the correct bearing on a later car.

But thats not the same as that rounded-off counterbore which looks suspiciously like its been worn away to that shape.

[top-plumber]

7 minutes ago, Andyww said:

Exactly. Maybe its not supposed to be there.

Later cars had a large parallel recess for a ball bearing thrust bearing. The picture Gotti posted above shows this and appears to have the wrong type of bearing installed. But thats not the same as that rounded counterbore which looks suspiciously like its been worn away to that shape.

I understand the point being made but it’s just too round and uniform. If it was wear I suspect it would be more of an oval. 

[Chillidoggy]

Wayne, if you’re putting lighter conrods in, you should think seriously about getting the assembly rebalanced dynamically. I did that with my Chevy engine, and had to have heavyweight tungsten inserts put into the crank webs to compensate.

Love the car, though!

[Gotti]

Andy:

My car is a dry sump (Essex) with its original crank and it has the countersink (1,5-2mm deep) on the end of the crankshaft and not a parallel recess like the later cars with the renault box .I know it,s hard to see on my photo.The bearing is correct and all  looks the same as described int the service notes!!! By the way your car is fantastic!!!!!!!

Wayne:

My rebuilder told me that the bearing goes into the crank fairly easy and it make sense to put a spacer behind it to prevent the moving from the bearing into the crank.I think your crank is not damaged too much.Machine a spacer for the bearing, deppress spacer and bearing into the crank until its flush or a about 1mm deeper.The sevice notes shows the outer end of the bearing not actually in contact with the metal (1-2mm).On your crank it will be a little more.(maybe 3-5mm)Take measurements and you will know.Maybe it will work.If you still have to grind your crank for oversized main bearing shells (i did it with mine) it would be better to purchase a new Crank (Sj sells them) Good luck with your rebuild and your white car looks great too!!!!! Every white G-Esprit looks amazing.....I especially like them!

 

[top-plumber]

1 hour ago, Gotti said:

Andy:

My car is a dry sump (Essex) with its original crank and it has the countersink (1,5-2mm deep) on the end of the crankshaft and not a parallel recess like the later cars with the renault box .I know it,s hard to see on my photo.The bearing is correct and all  looks the same as described int the service notes!!! By the way your car is fantastic!!!!!!!

Wayne:

My rebuilder told me that the bearing goes into the crank fairly easy and it make sense to put a spacer behind it to prevent the moving from the bearing into the crank.I think your crank is not damaged too much.Machine a spacer for the bearing, deppress spacer and bearing into the crank until its flush or a about 1mm deeper.The sevice notes shows the outer end of the bearing not actually in contact with the metal (1-2mm).On your crank it will be a little more.(maybe 3-5mm)Take measurements and you will know.Maybe it will work.If you still have to grind your crank for oversized main bearing shells (i did it with mine) it would be better to purchase a new Crank (Sj sells them) Good luck with your rebuild and your white car looks great too!!!!! Every white G-Esprit looks amazing.....I especially like them!

 

Andy has got me thinking it’s worn. As the white cars crank is not the same. But the bore is just so round it looks machined. The 2 different cranks pictures are from the red car and the white car. The counterbore is on the red car and I may have to machine a spacer to infill the counterbore and one to stop the bearing pushing back into the crank. The red car is for sale so I don’t want to pass the problem onto someone else. That’s why it’s important to find out if it’s normal or not.