Future of Lotus

[C8RKH]

Surely the work from the ill fated Baha days and the much vaunted 5 cars means a lot of design work etc has already been done.  That, with access to platforms and kit, why can't they accelerate things now to get ONE new model ready and out? You're either going for it or you're not!  Get the pedal to the metal and that gas flowing and the rubber tearing the tarmac!

I think the Baha designs were generally well received, so much so that Lamborghini just lifted one for the Huracan in my opinion!

I'd like to see a slightly smaller version of the Evora (hard and soft top) losing that +2 shit and all that wasted space to shorten the platform a bit, and then a proper +2 Evora for those that want the extra space for shit machines etc.  When I look at the Huracan it looks very compact, lithe and agile, even against a current Evora. In fact, if it had a Lotus badge and interior (and not the Audi A4 it has) I'd buy one!

[Spinney]

38 minutes ago, C8RKH said:

I'd like to see a slightly smaller version of the Evora (hard and soft top) losing that +2 shit and all that wasted space to shorten the platform a bit,

I think that's called an...................... "Exige" 

[C8RKH]

Nope - I want the Evora fit, finish and comfort as opposed to the more raw Exige.  Do not complicate "smaller" with more basic, two different things.

[Spinney]

It was a tongue in cheek comment. Having owned a V6 Exige before the Evora, I'm very aware of its rawness.

[andyj007]

an exige with evora fit = exora... exige is basically just an elise with a bigger engine,   & few  go faster bits. anyway......

   so why not an exora, something that feels a little more upmarket  than a toy to get in and out?   (ment as something more serious the wife would elegantly get in an out of ) not as in kid toy, but a bit more smaller than the evora

sign me up..

 

 

 

 

[NedaSay]

 

16 hours ago, C8RKH said:

Nope - I want the Evora fit, finish and comfort as opposed to the more raw Exige.  Do not complicate "smaller" with more basic, too different things.

An Exige  based on a shorten Evora chassis with the 4cyl turbocharger + supercharged, would be ace, it would be notoriously lighter and would have daily drivability...  A win win win.  

[Jacques]

Get on with it, and just make a new Esprit, which should be as catching as the old one(-s).

It will probably take so long time, that electric cars are already old, and partially superceeded by running on sea Water and what not.

SUV? No thanks.

Jacques

[silverfrost]

Low, wide, pop up lights and put an esprit badge on it,   cant be that hard to take the G turbo sharp design and put a slightly modern touch on it !

I will give them until the end of next year or i will build them one myself to market lol 

[C8RKH]

I would positively wet my pants if they could pull that off and sell everything I own to get one!

[Nathan Pitman]

Sorry, pop up lights ain’t gonna happen. Pedestrian safety killed those off. 

[Ccd]

I hate to be cynical, but here goes.  All of Geely’s money is going into 1-2 SUVs primarily designed for the Chinese market.  Sports cars will be produced in Hethel, however the new Exprit will be part of a massive re-positioning of Lotus in the market place.  Everything is going up-market; there will be no “bare bones” vehicles.  The current line-up will limp along until replaced with a far more premium and expensive line-up.  

[C8RKH]

In that case I'm bloody glad I bought my 410 sport Evora when I did.

[Advantage]

2 hours ago, Nathan Pitman said:

Sorry, pop up lights ain’t gonna happen. Pedestrian safety killed those off. 

Not exactly accurate. Pop up headlights have not been killed off nor banned and can still be used by manufacturers. However, the new car will still have to comply with current pedestrian impact regs no matter how the headlights are mounted and that is cost prohibitive for many - as well as being deeply unfashionable these days. 

[NedaSay]

2 hours ago, Ccd said:

I hate to be cynical, but here goes.  All of Geely’s money is going into 1-2 SUVs primarily designed for the Chinese market.  Sports cars will be produced in Hethel, however the new Exprit will be part of a massive re-positioning of Lotus in the market place.  Everything is going up-market; there will be no “bare bones” vehicles.  The current line-up will limp along until replaced with a far more premium and expensive line-up.  

You are I think absolutely right, but lets not kid ourselves Loti are not cheap, they haven't been cheap in a long time and I do think that the new line up will pretty much mimic the price structure of Porsche at the low end and should undercut Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and McLaren at the top end. So if one was able to afford an Evora or an Exige V6  recently that same person should still be able to afford buying a Lotus in the future maybe not the top end but the exige replacement will not price out most current buyers. Hopefully, they will be produced in much higher numbers and this will cause the second hand market to have hopefully lower prices allowing humble people like me to be able to buy an Elise...  Oh yeah in case you don't know the Elise still sells for around a whopping 50k CAD... Yup 50K for a bare bone generally over 10 years old car... Depreciation my arse!!!!

[Ccd]

I think the pricing of future models will depend on what Lotus charges for the Esprit.  I’m guessing it will be a $200,000 car and that the successors to the Evora, Exige and Elise will slot under that.  If I am right, then the only car Lotus makes in the future which will come out for less than $100,000 will be some versions if their SUVs.

This could make current versions of the Evora, Exige and Elise raging bargains.  Hard to know.  Speaking for the US market, Lotus has never been able to muster the cache of other cars in the collectible market here.  

[NedaSay]

I'd rather think Lotus will match Porsche toe to toe with a starting Elise replacement at around 55k when it lands. Just basing this on how Volvo was benchmarked against Mercedes Benz and how they are systematically cheaper. Going way upmarket with a sports car base model at 100k is not really sustainable, Lotus needs to build equity, the brand is an unknown quantity in China but European buyers American buyers have a certain notion of what Lotus is. Jumping straight to 100k+ is a stretch that could be somewhat dangerous.

It all comes down to the new Esprit pricing... it will be the top end  except for potential Eleven limited runs, will probably start somewhere between a 570S or a 720S. Whether it is close to one or the other will inform on the positioning of the lower end models. In my opinion there's room at the top end but also at the lower end of the market I believe. Especially if the first generation of Lotus under Geely is still based on internal combustion engine.

[C8RKH]

I kind of agree with you @NedaSay that Geely will be sensible with the pricing but think you are bit high on the estimates. 

If you look at the competition (uk pricing) you can see the bands:

Boxster starts at £48k and the S is £54k and GTS is £65k

Cayman starts at £46k and the S is £52k and GTS is £63k

Alfa 4C started at £51k

New Alpine starts at £46k (yes I know the are advertised for more, but let's stick to list prices)

BMW M2 starts at £42k

If Lotus wants to compete then £55k will be hard to justify. I know you can add a lot of cash to those numbers by using the world renowned Porsche "extra's" list but I just cannot see how an Elise could be priced near these prices without a significant increase in cabin comfort / build.  My guess is a £40k - 60K range would work, providing current performance was maintained but the interior would need to be Evora Standard. i guess the Alpine has laid down a standard here.

Looking at the Porsche 911  I think this is where things get harder for Lotus as which model to they pitch here, the Exige or the Evora?

911 starts at £78k and the S is £87k starting point.  Hmmm, now we see where the problem really starts with the GT410 Evora starting at £86k with most of them advertised at around the £93-96k mark with the Sparco seats, metallic, etc.  So right now the Evora is right at the upper range starting point for the 911 "normal range" and you can see why people would choose the 911 (yes, I really did say that!).  I'd sy the current GT410 in usual spec is priced the same as the usual 911 with extra's so both around £93-95k.  That's a tough toe to toe fight right there, BEFORE Lotus even thinks about going upmarket.

Yes, the new Vantage will be £120k+, and I guess the cheaper options would be an M4 starting at £60k, a Maserati GranTurismo at £92k, Lexus LC starts at £74k, the BMW M5 with it's 5 seats (for those with little shit machines and who need cupholders ) has sub 3.5s performance times and a starting price of £90k.

So you could actually argue that the Evora GT410 Sport is actually priced just about spot on for price, performance, comfort/build against the key competition, but it shows why maybe the more raw (but just superb!) Exige at this prices would be a much harder sell.  With the push of the Exige northwards in price it is actually competing with the Evora as much as anything else is it not?

As far as the new Esprit is concerned I think the biggest issue is the Huracan at £150k, the Audi R8 V10's at £115k and the McLaren 570 at £150k AND the new Vantage at £120k which could be shaping up to look a bit of a bargain with the new model.

So for me, the new car line up for Lotus, assuming the models stay the same name wise and rough size/performance wise, needs to be something like:

Elise - £40k - £60k

Exige - £60k - £90k

Evora - £85k - £115k

Esprit - £125k

I just struggle to see, for a while, Lotus driving sales at prices that are much outside of this range whilst going toe to toe with the likes of Porsche. Just my view and opinion, not stating any facts to be contentious etc. if anything, on reflection, my prices for the new Loti might be 5-10% too high still to really drive sales and change perceptions. I just do not see how Lotus can command a "premium" over Porsche, no matter how hard that is for me to say.

 

 

 

[Nathan Pitman]

@C8RKH Sounds about right to me. I think Lotus would do well to improve the overall interior fit and finish across the range to attract a wider audience but then offer Lotus Motorsport variants which hark back to the current stripped out Elise/Exige lineup to satisfy current Lotus owners. Basically the Lotus 'M' cars.

[Andyww]

McLaren will be a tough act for any new Esprit to compete with.

They have used their bottomless pit of funds to invest in leading edge tech, including a new plant which can make carbon-fibre tubs using a semi mass-production method rather than costly hand layup which results in the Alfa 4C costing far more to make than its price.

In that respect they are ahead of any other manufacturer including Ferrari. 

[LotusLeftLotusRight]

It's worth remembering that the original Turbo Esprit (Giugiaro) was marketed at a much lower market segment than we are expecting for the new car. I have a copy of the Autocar's Renault GTA V6 Turbo road test (23 July 1986). The Renault retailed at GBP 23,905 on the road. The Esprit Turbo was one of the rival cars listed and cost less at GBP 23,440. The Porsche 944 Turbo was GBP 27,547. The 911 did not even get a mention. On that basis, you would suggest that the Turbo Esprit was a bargain! 

[Ccd]

One of the big questions is what will distinguish Lotus when it moves up market.  Sure, the cars are light, but so is much of the competition.  The other standout for Lotus is the raw or visceral feel of their cars.  Even the Evora is bare bones by modern standards.  The problem is that this aspect has not played well in the market place,  

My only suggestion is that the Esprit can be different by offering a light true 4 seat coupe or sedan.  Most other offerings are two seaters or 4 seaters with a decided emphasis on luxury.

[ChrisJ]

@LotusLeftLotusRight Not sure you are right, as when the Turbo Esprit came out in 1981 it was compared with the following:

Turbo Esprit	£20,900
Maserati Merek	£18,987
Ferrari 308GTB	£21,810
Porsche 911SC	£16,732
BMW 635CSi	£18,950
AC 3000ME	£13,301

http://www.lotusespritworld.com/ERoadtests/AutoCar_May81.html

By 1986, the pricing had changed. But at outset it was compared to the 308 rather than the 911.

[NedaSay]

@C8RKH your GBP to "my" colonial USD( not using CAD as it is mostly irrelevant in global trade) I think we are in the same price bracket if we look at currency conversion rate.

I do think Lotus will be priced just as Volvo is on their market segment i.e value for money. I think they will benchmark with Porsche first, then Ferrari, McLaren, Aston Martin, Lamborghini but also Alpine and Maserati, naturally they will benchmark the other germans. However trying to outprice a BMW M2 is almost impossible im my opinion if we think about scale.   

As to the fit and finish of the new cars, if the SUV cabin does inform us, and the recent hiring spree both at Hethel and in Shanghai suburbs is anything to go by, we are set to see a new generation of dare i say luxurious high tech interiors in future Lotus.

 

 

Now luxurious should not mean heavy... They should be in the same vein as the Evora just even more polished and with bespoke user interface, derived from Geely group U/I  but tuned and redesigned to fit the Lotus philosophy/positioning. No more aftermarket or outdated Ford parts bin stuff. Lotus is appointing a buyer that will be based in Stockholm...They are getting Volvo's tech in theses cars, I expect the loom and all the stock, toggles and switches to be Geely-Volvo CEVT branded products. Get ready to say hello to HD widescreen with a Lotus skin on the Volvo Sensus U/I, get ready for Sparco electric cooled and heated seats, phone wireless charging craddle, USB ports galore, HUD,  multizones AC unit engineered by Volvo. Get ready for driver assistance...  One of the possible favorite option people will tick maybe the delete option. 

Now the range is going to be interesting in terms of positioning, JMG said before he left that two new sports were coming but they would not be replacing two cars in the line up. Because it is the oldest car in the range, we first thought it was the Elise that was getting replaced before JMG spoke again and said the market was elsewhere and the attention got shifted toward an Exige replacement. We all assume the other car is an Esprit successor or halo car. Essentially that leaves Elise and Evora to soldier on before they are eventually phased out with or without replacement. In two years the line may look just as @C8RKH presented but segmenting the Lotus range will be somewhat tricky.

I assume the new Exige will go toe to toe with the Boxster/Cayman and that leaves very little room for an entry level Elise. I assume the Evora is going to get another mild make over  in order to keep hunting the 911  forever and ever. I assume the Halo car will slot above the Evora and hunt everything else... And everything  else is a awful lot these days. this segment is crowded and it is getting worse with Corvette and Aston Martin both bringing new read mid engined cars in the next 2 years. If you are just looking for a mid engined supercars right now, you have never had that much of a choice amongst the established players and the price span is daunting too, from around 150K USD to near or beyond 300K USD it is maddening.  I wish the very best of Luck to Popham and the team to position the car. Should they go to the lower end Audi R8, McLaren Sport Series or Should they go to the upper end 720s, F488?

 

[C8RKH]

13 minutes ago, NedaSay said:

Should they go to the lower end Audi R8, McLaren Sport Series or Should they go to the upper end 720s, F488?

There are only a small number of people (relatively speaking of course) with the means to splash £150k+ on a 3rd, 4th or 5th car. There are significantly more with £100-£150k to splash, especially with good Volvo like financing options etc. Also, £150k+ is ALL ABOUT THE BRAND - so prancing bulls or horses etc. and it does take time to build a brand to the point where you would splash £150k+ on a product. Lotus is not there yet and will be a few years to get there.

Look at VAG, the have a vast portfolio of brands and overlap in models. What does a R8 really offer over and above a TTRS for the extra huge wad of cash?  What does the Huracan really offer over an R8V10 for the extra huge wad of cash?  Brand positioning and cachet, and the Halo effect of the bigger, much more expensive cars.

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying Geely and Lotus won't get there. They will. But when they do, i think the cars and the ownership proposition will be a lot different to know, and the cars will not get used, driven hard by real enthusiastic and knowledgeable owners, like they do now.  They'll be pampered garage queens that get rolled out for the next cars and coffee meeting so people can swoon over them, before they are tucked up again till the next C&C event.  just my thoughts.

[C8RKH]

On 01/11/2018 at 20:04, Spinney said:

 

So sat on Heathrow Express just now and news comes on. Ferrari reporting record revenues. All down to surge in sales of 8 and 12 cylinder models!

 

You know where you can stick your 4 pots!