Future of Lotus

[KAS-118]

4 hours ago, MPx said:

On a slightly different tack...I've been a bit disturbed to see the latest reliability surveys from JD Power (US) and Which? (UK).  Essentially they have Volvo pretty near the bottom of the list with twice as many faults reported compared to those at the top of the table.  

 

Which? car brand reliability Rank Car manufacturer Reliability 0-3 years Reliability 3-8 years

1 Lexus ***** *****

2 Suzuki ***** *****

3 Toyota ***** *****

4 Dacia ***** ****

5 Alfa Romeo ***** ***

6 Honda **** *****

7 Mitsubishi **** *****

8 BMW **** ****

9 Kia **** ****

10 Mazda **** ****

11 Mini **** ****

12 Audi **** ***

13 Ford **** ***

14 Hyundai **** ***

15 Renault **** ***

16 Seat **** ***

17 Skoda **** ***

18 Subaru **** ***

19 Citroen **** **

20 Peugeot **** **

21 Vauxhall **** **

22 Volkswagen **** **

23 DS **** n/a

24 Jeep *** ****

25 Porsche *** ****

26 Jaguar *** ***

27 Mercedes-Benz *** ***

28 Nissan *** ***

29 Smart *** ***

30 Fiat *** **

31 Volvo *** **

32 Ssangyong ***  n/a

33 Tesla ***  n/a

34 Land Rover ** **

35 Chevrolet  n/a **

36 Saab  n/a **

n/a - not available or sample size too small 

I'm aware that the 2019 JD Power study will be based on 2016 cars...so presumably pre-Geely?  But the Which? survey has 0-3yr and 3-8yr and new Volvo's are poor too.  Chinese quality control does not have a good reputation in the UK and their Motorcycle product are a laughing stock in that regard.  We're not going to resurrect the old acronym are we ?....after what must be at least 2 decades of it being totally inappropriate?    That would be a cruel irony given the great hopes we all now have for the marque.

Blimey - that's not good ☹️

[Advantage]

8 hours ago, Spinney said:

Well if it wasn't, Lotus would have even fewer cars to sell until the introduction of the Geely era models. It is, after all, the most recent of Lotus designs - notwithstanding the extended Elise chassis to produce the V6 Exige and the only one that can be sold in the USA at present.

Quite, and that's my point. Another MY of no new cars. Another MY of trying to persuade US and worldwide dealers that it's a good idea to have a franchise. Another MY of single digit sales figures. 

It's such a depressingly sad and predictable cycle. A new hope for "Great Things" is offered up and lots of excitement abounds. Then - nothing.

It's all very well having an enthusiastic optimism for the marque, but that doesn't pay the bills. It wasn't that long ago that the delay between ending S1 Elise production and supply of the S2 model caused dealerships severe financial hardship at their Lotus outlets and some didn't survive that delay. It came as no surprise to hear that a number of current UK dealerships have recently taken on a Caterham franchise. They need the income! 

It seems we're stuck with another year of dealerships trying to sell a product that the public doesn't want, hence my earlier expression of disappointment. 

[Spinney]

Let’s be honest, Lotus has suffered many, many years of under investment and, sadly, it just isn’t possible to suddenly rustle up a range of brand new models that everyone is beating a path to your door to buy.

We all recall the Bahar smoke and mirrors era of 5 new cars in as many years. Great in principle but what was he lacking? Proper investment, that’s what. Investment to put in place the production facilities, the engineers to design and develop the new cars, the dealer network to sell the product, the marketing people, in fact all the things established car companies already have. 

Geely haven’t really been at the helm very long but are putting all the necessary nuts and bolts in place to build a strong foundation for the future. I’m sure the long awaited new cars will be worth the wait but in the meantime we have to make do with the Elise, Exige and Evora for s while longer, which really aren’t bad cars in themselves.

Yes I know they aren’t selling many right now and there’s going to be some pain felt by the dealers but honestly, what else can Lotus do in the meantime but try talking some life into the old dog for a while? Rome wasn’t built in a day.

[AK70]

Fully agree with @Spinney

What they can do:

1) Establish a proper online configurator..

2) Bring back a Touring Evora - Base Model with sound decading, usefull interior and boot and soundsystem/navi (price way below the 410)

3) Establish a stringend naming for all model (GT410 Sport??? come on...)

4) Do some cool commercials

5) Make proper use of the bloggers/youtubers  (check out the heelandtoe blog for example and see the guy enyoing a modified Exige 380...)

All of this could have allready be done month ago.... Really don't understand, why they don't take more effort to sell the current range of cars...

 

 

[silverfrost]

GT 410 Venom    You could even have snake skin seats 

[CharlieBrown]

9 hours ago, AK70 said:

Fully agree with @Spinney

What they can do:

1) Establish a proper online configurator..

2) Bring back a Touring Evora - Base Model with sound decading, usefull interior and boot and soundsystem/navi (price way below the 410)

3) Establish a stringend naming for all model (GT410 Sport??? come on...)

4) Do some cool commercials

5) Make proper use of the bloggers/youtubers  (check out the heelandtoe blog for example and see the guy enyoing a modified Exige 380...)

All of this could have allready be done month ago.... Really don't understand, why they don't take more effort to sell the current range of cars...

 

 

 

Here in the US the Evora GT410 Sport will be called just Evora GT...It won't get here until June 2019...Dealers here don't want to tell us the price, specs, etc. They just want us to put a deposit on the car and "get excited" 

[Spinney]

It's quite a car to get excited about. I love mine. 👍

Must admit I can't understand why it's taking such a long time to make it ready to sell in the US. It's not as if Lotus are stacked out with orders for the GT410 from other markets. 

[NedaSay]

They needed to crash test the bumpers again for the sake of homologation, but it doesn't explain everything... I also think the car will only be called  Evora GT because it won't actually be a 410...  It will look like one, and drive like one though...

[CharlieBrown]

For what US dealers say, the Evora GT is the same car as the GT410 Sport.

[NedaSay]

 

I doubt they will use the 410 moniker because technically the 410 engine is the same as 400 in the US.  In Europe the Sport 410 had a slightly different tune generating 416hp or 410bhp, but in the US they just used the 400 engine that is rated at 400hp or 400bhp. So unless they decided to go for a new engine homologation ...You see where I'm going... Hence the logical Evora GT moniker.

[Bravo73]

30 minutes ago, NedaSay said:

...because technically the 410 engine is the same as 400 in the Europe.

EFA.  😉

[CharlieBrown]

44 minutes ago, NedaSay said:

 

I doubt they will use the 410 moniker because technically the 410 engine is the same as 400 in the US.  In Europe the Sport 410 had a slightly different tune generating 416hp or 410bhp, but in the US they just used the 400 engine that is rated at 400hp or 400bhp. So unless they decided to go for a new engine homologation ...You see where I'm going... Hence the logical Evora GT moniker.

We'll see about that when they release the specs for the US cars. However, my Evora 400 was at a Dyno and it comes with 408hp out of factory. Lots of other guys here have the same number.

[NedaSay]

4 minutes ago, CharlieBrown said:

We'll see about that when they release the specs for the US cars. However, my Evora 400 was at a Dyno and it comes with 408hp out of factory. Lots of other guys here have the same number.

Yup a lot of cars had over 406 bhp some early models had slightly less,  but all within the margin of error.

I wonder if the US launch will correspond to a R.O.W relaunch.

[CharlieBrown]

My is 2017 which is the first year in the US, and the dudes I know have the same model year and same hp. 

[Loquacious Lew]

I will say this again.  If Geely wants Lotus to have a future in the USA, they need to pick up the customer 'recognition' pace here and extend concern and support to the existing products.  A proud legacy can and should be established right here, right now.  That is something that takes little time to implement and only a bit of will and some seed money.  The soft launch of the GT (if that's its moniker ) in the USA is a haphazard affair as far as I can tell.  The dealers are, I think, not fully informed but have been given the mission to pre-sell cars without having a real handle on the final spec, hard delivery dates, etc.   Here's what I think I know, but I may be mistaken on some minor points. Please forgive any errors in my script as some things are quite unclear to me.

 

The seats are the standard Sparcos as we all knew they would have to be.  That's not Lotus' fault but we don't get the CF seats.  Our spec is said to be down a few HP because of the third cat.  Again, perhaps not Lotus' fault but it's still a minor ding. I don't think we get fancy shocks (Nitron/Ohlins etc) so there's nothing  special there that I am aware of. That last bit (shocks)  is another item not entirely clear to me but  I don't think the dealers were told about any changes in that department so for the moment I assume they're not included.  No standard cruise control,  (this on a GT spec car!). 

So what do we get for the money?  A 400 with  22 more HP,  the new front end styling, otherwise the basic interior spec of a cooking 400.  I think we might get the Li battery, but I'm not sure about that.  We don't get the Ti exhaust unless we plunk down another $8K.  The sub (who cares, but.....) is extra.  CF mirror covers? Extra.  Colors are red or white unless you want to pay between $3500 to $8000 extra depending on your pick.  AC is standard, (no cost delete), insulation is standard, standard forged wheels are included but no CF roof unless you buy the CF pack. I think it's fair to guess most cars will sticker at about $125 to $130K  plus freight, taxes etc.  with a base price of $117K. Indeed base price is $117K  but that's a bit unreal as regards out the door cost given  the standard equipment level.  Also recall there are left over 17s, low mile demos and "used cars"  going for between $75K and $80K (or less, sometimes shockingly so). Those cars are compelling and not really all that much lower spec when you cipher it all out. To cap it, we have no financing options beyond those we can suss out for ourselves not to mention an uninspiring warranty.

If one already owns a 400 and was an early adopter as I was, you are going to take a big hit on the car at trade-in time because of all those  2017 leftovers, demos and low mileage used cars floating around here at (by comparison) ridiculously  low prices.  I reckon it could cost me as much as $50K to $60K to trade my well sorted 400 with under 10K miles for the US spec "430GT" (or whatever it will be called here).  Not an attractive proposition to me so I'm on the sidelines for the moment.

 

Lotus USA needs to consider and act on what they are asking of their loyal clients and dealers (we do exist) in making a commitment of this magnitude without having enough data to make a  considered and wise decision. I think there will be very few pre-sales for the car under the circumstances.  The future of Lotus would be brighter here if they took a little more time and energy to think things through and showed some real willingness to up the support for existing clients, dealers and products.

I love my car, I like my dealer and I really want to like the 430 but I can't be an early adopter of another new Lotus until they get the information flow and some communications, generosity of spirit and real understanding of their clients and the market conditions sorted out in this country.  

Given all that, I'll let to let somebody else be the early adopter at this moment in time.  

[CharlieBrown]

I agree with most of your post except for:

1. Just because right now you see a handful of Evora 400 advertised under 80k doesn't mean they will depreciate like the previous model. Remember there were only 324 cars imported from 2017-2018 to the US.

The new Evora GT (which will be more expensive from the get go and advertised as a different model) IMO it will help keep Evora 400 prices high. Think about it, when the Evora GT comes to the States, the first place you will see it advertised will be on Ebay and with a price of 120k+ -- then right below you'll see 5-6 Evora 400 with prices ranging from 98k - 75k. The Evora 400 will look like a super deal, specially when the buyer realizes the new Lotus is not that much better performance wise.

Right now in CarGurus.com you can see about 30 Evora 400 for sale in the whole USA. Most of them are about 80K plus and ALL of them have people "saving" the listing. Those people interested in those cars, waiting for price to drop, salivating for that low numbers unique car.

 

[Ccd]

CharlieBrown:

I disagree.  The “new” Evora is just as likely to depress prices for existing Evoras.  Let me share an example.  I own the last gen TT RS which only came as a manual in the USA.  Only around 1200 were produced over 2 years and the current gen TT RS lacks a manual.  There is a market for the car, but demand is not high.  Now if I owned the last gen R8 with a manual, then the demand would be VERY high.

It all comes down to demand.  Lotus has not been in high demand in the USA.  Look at prices for Esprits in the States and compare them to similar cars of the era.  Ferrari’s of that era are still in high demand and the prices reflect that.  The Esprit?  Not so much.  

The prices for the Evora are continuing to fall.  There are a number in the $70K range right now on CarGurus.  Hard to know where prices will level off.  There are few Evoras for sale in the USA, but a lot of them have been for sale for a long time.  My best guess is that prices will level off in the $60-70k range, but that is nothing more than a guess.  

Your best chance for prices going up is if the “new” Evora, along with an advertising campaign, changes the public image of Lotus.  I frankly doubt that Lotus is going to invest much money in the Evora.  Geely has been in charge for some time now and they haven’t even bothered to update their pathetic website which would cost little to do.  Instead, I think Geely is spending its money on brand new models and that their advertising dollars will be saved to promote those cars.  That ad campaign may improve the value of your car if it raises Lotus’ image with the public,  but you will have to wait a few years for that to happen

[Likuid]

Honestly its hard to predict. If Geely is able to make the Lotus brand something desirable then my guess is the current generations of cars will hold a respectable value in the long term. However, that's a big IF and could take years. That's why I think Geely wants to make the Lotus hypercar. Its a quick way to bring the Lotus name mainstream again, then you have to bring out some new quality cars, better dealer network and advertising. Easier said than done of course.

[CharlieBrown]

4 hours ago, Ccd said:

CharlieBrown:

I disagree.  The “new” Evora is just as likely to depress prices for existing Evoras.  Let me share an example.  I own the last gen TT RS which only came as a manual in the USA.  Only around 1200 were produced over 2 years and the current gen TT RS lacks a manual.  There is a market for the car, but demand is not high.  Now if I owned the last gen R8 with a manual, then the demand would be VERY high.

It all comes down to demand.  Lotus has not been in high demand in the USA.  Look at prices for Esprits in the States and compare them to similar cars of the era.  Ferrari’s of that era are still in high demand and the prices reflect that.  The Esprit?  Not so much.  

The prices for the Evora are continuing to fall.  There are a number in the $70K range right now on CarGurus.  Hard to know where prices will level off.  There are few Evoras for sale in the USA, but a lot of them have been for sale for a long time.  My best guess is that prices will level off in the $60-70k range, but that is nothing more than a guess.  

Your best chance for prices going up is if the “new” Evora, along with an advertising campaign, changes the public image of Lotus.  I frankly doubt that Lotus is going to invest much money in the Evora.  Geely has been in charge for some time now and they haven’t even bothered to update their pathetic website which would cost little to do.  Instead, I think Geely is spending its money on brand new models and that their advertising dollars will be saved to promote those cars.  That ad campaign may improve the value of your car if it raises Lotus’ image with the public,  but you will have to wait a few years for that to happen

Well, we'll see who is right about depreciation in the US of the Evora 400. I still believe the arrival of the overpriced new Evora GT will help prices stay in the 70-80K.  If you put a TTRS next to an Evora 400, guess which will be more desired to own...the Lotus by a mile of course. Also there are no other Lotus cars for sale unless you look at old models, and nobody wants a Esprit today. 

Lotus USA is run by morons. Last time they "advertised" the new Evora 400 back in 2016, the CEO was driving around the country on an Euro Spec Evora 400 stating that it was a brilliant way to show the car. He would stop at certain dealers but they never promoted that either, so I never knew they were in South Florida until I read a comment on the Lotustalk site. Also, they paid for a magazine ad where it showed a Yellow Evora 400 and in big bold black letters said : "The new Lotus Evora 400, is not for you" right under in smaller print that said the opposite...idiots HAHAHA.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by CharlieBrown

[Ccd]

I know enthusiasts who simply will not consider a Lotus.  They give the marque low marks for reliability.  We both know the dealer network in the USA is limited and there have been complaints here about long waits for parts.  All of that impacts what people want.

I previously stated that 1200-1300 of my car were exported to the USA.  Guess how many are listed on CarGurus right now?  The answer is 19 which is only 4 more than the number of manual Evora 400s at the same site.  

I was using my car as an example that limited production numbers is no guarantee of demand.  Similarly, the limited number of Evora 400s in the USA is no guarantee that they will be in high demand in the future either, particularly if Lotus continues to be practically invisible in the USA

[Loquacious Lew]

I didn't intend to predict the direction of resale prices per se but I'll kick in my 2 cents  as it bears on what the immediate future holds.

 I'm inclined to agree with Ccd that 400 prices will remain depressed for the foreseeable future.  What is "foreseeable?"  I don't know but I think it extends well past the arrival of the GT.  At this point we're unlikely to see a rebound in prices until the cars are no longer in production.  This is an irony!   I can go into detail or we can just look at the strange way supply and demand works in the extreme weirdness that is the  used exotic car market.  In any case, one guess is as good as another but here's why I think the GT won't help used prices. I would be delighted to be wrong. 

* This introduction is not being managed any better that that of the 400. If anything, it feels more disconnected. I fear the initial run of cars will not be sold out resulting in vehicles held in dealer or factory  inventory, ultimately leading to price cutting to shift stock.  If the differences in price between the GT and the 400 can be sustained indeed the 400 could benefit.  But I don't think that's how it will roll out.  

*We can intuit that they are not investing in the current models or the US market which comes across as an unwillingness or inability to promote them   Who knows how much support they intend to provide down the road for these last of breed vehicles?  Great things may be coming but well over a year later nothing has changed.

Lotus must up their game.  It's not about the fundamental appeal of the Evora.   It's about the ownership experience and the perception that buying a Lotus is  risky business. The more expensive the cars are, the harder it will be to shift them in America unless the situation improves visibly.  

 Lotus has to love these cars (and us by extension)  as much as we do.  It's not complex.

Finally!   My car is fine, tons of fun (well, ton and a half actually). It's at it's best when I'm driving it and not ranting on a public forum.  

[Ccd]

CharlieBrown

The one thing we can agree on is that Lotus is dreaming if they think that adding a few carbon fiber bits will allow them to charge $120,000 plus for an Evora.  If that is all Lotus does, the car will be a crashing failure in the USA

[au-yt]

I asked the Lotus International marketing manager the question re the US market, and from memory his answer was until the new models come out there isn't enough product to expand the US network as yet.

[CharlieBrown]

I guess deep inside they don't care about the US market.

Oh well, I will enjoy my Evora 400 like I did with my previous 2013 Evora NA and 2011 Elise R....and probably move out of the brand. I can't fathom to pay 120k+ for the Evora GT with only few Bhp more with bits of carbon fiber around and 2 years later be worth 80k at best.

[Ccd]

Not sure that Lotus doesn’t care about the US market.  Rather, it is a calculation on their part that the cost of getting the rest of their line-up road legal in the US is not justified by projected sales.