Exige 380 ecu remap

[Mark030358]

@alias23 Dont want blow one of these delicate engines if I upgrade it. At £15K (new) asking price +VAT thats expensive. 

cheers

[alias23]

1 minute ago, Mark030358 said:

@alias23 Dont want blow one of these delicate engines if I upgrade it. At £15K (new) asking price +VAT thats expensive. 

cheers

Or get that Cossy engine and have 400bhp NA and muhhhhaaaaaahahaaaa

[DJW]

3 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

@alias23 Dont want blow one of these delicate engines if I upgrade it. At £15K (new) asking price +VAT thats expensive. 

cheers

When I had my 997 GT3 I looked to part ex against an RS version.  Car had a new engine fitted at 3k miles.  Dealer showed me the bill.... £52k !!!!

[alias23]

1 minute ago, DJW said:

When I had my 997 GT3 I looked to part ex against an RS version.  Car had a new engine fitted at 3k miles.  Dealer showed me the bill.... £52k !!!!

WOW!

[C8RKH]

You could buy a new Sport 350 for that engine change bill!   So that'll be the end of people complaining Lotus are now too dear please!

[Maxi_z]

7 hours ago, alias23 said:

I'm a bit confused ... can we just recheck the situation.

- Engine Broke on track
- Lotus Dealer checks ECU and see's an over rev (long time ago not at time of incident) to which he feels could invalidate a warranty claim
- Customer suggests wants a tuned engine (anyway)
- Lotus Dealer provides quote for tuned engine, calls Lotus Group and mentions the over rev to which Lotus Group suggest likely warranty claim would be rejected
- Lotus Dealer doesn't lodge official warranty claim request

Is that the current situation? 

If so my suggestion would be to ask the dealer to begin the official warranty process with Lotus and await formal feedback on if the claim is accepted or rejected. A brief call can't really confirm either way - It should go through the formal process before escalating in my opinion. Lotus Group should be given a fair opportunity to review and make a decision as part of their warranty process.

The tuned engine... what recommendations have the dealer given you? I dont know of many folks who have 'tuned' as in reinforced the standard engine, the only ones I know of are Komotec and Jubu as part of their 500bhp type power upgrades. The engine on a 460 seems to be doing quite well (albeit on the older versions of V6), the gearboxes can find it difficult with that power, but the engines in general seem to be taking 400-430bhp with ease (again albeit the older version of the V6).

IF you want a proper tuned engine here you go:
https://www.motorsportauctions.com/category/333/Prototypes-and-GTs/listings/33870/Lotus-Evora-GT4-Cosworth-GLA-Spec-Race-Engine.html

However i'd save your money for a little while and go through the proper warranty process with Lotus Group first.

@Mark030358 no one has ever confirmed, and I can understand why, but I do believe there has been 'something' which has caused Lotus to change the rev limit position. Maybe Toyota wasn't happy with the risk of their engines being used in the manner a Lotus owner would use it and wanted to de-risk their liability and therefore put terms on the supply to Lotus. Maybe there have been engine claims which has concerned Lotus and they've limited their exposure by applying the rev limiter to the new models. I don't know ... as some would say I'm just 'some bloke' speculating, but for sure I believe something happened to instil the change... I mean why would any sports manufacturer impose such a change on later models unless it was to de-risk. But again I'm just some bloke.

You are right

That s basically the current situation more or less

I could be ok to take the failure as an opportunity to make some tuned engine and maybe later add a different supercharger as in fact the dealer is also making racing engines and for that I think their built engines are really good mechanically

as they are building them for race cars etc.

But the thing I at least expected was an official response from Lotus even if saying that for some reason they would not accept the warranty claim.

Even before braking the engine the main thing I did not like about the 380 was that lower rev limiter.

I have a friend with a v6 cup r that is supposed to use the same base engine and it works at 7200rpm without a single problem and very well.

So I tought that they might have lowered the rev limiter just because of the different supercharger pulley on the 380 or maybe because extra heat near the standard cats etc.

But then I read all those vague replies about for example tuners not able to raise the rev limit or that were not sure if it would be ok with the 380 internals etc.

I thnink even if like others it s just speculation that the simple answer is that the toyota basic engine has some slightly different components that are maybe just less strong than the previous ones.

The problem is that Lotus want to do slightly more powerful editions of the cars with marketing and higher prices but they end up receiving new engines for toyota that are maybe in some way less good and their only solution was to lower the engine rev limiter as it would be too expensive for them to make mechanical changes.

They also have to respect emissions etc.

So in some way I think the finish quality of their cars is better and better but mechanically there could be some things less strong than before and thats not really good when the prices of the cars are really expensive and they are sold as

track capable versions.

If you go around the forums youy will see different v6 engine failures even on street cars but I never saw many failures of those v6 in lotus cup europe using the v6 cup r for example.

 

[Maxi_z]

9 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

@alias23 I'm not going to speculate. The new 430 Cup has a higher RPM limit than the 380, as does the 350 and V6S. I took a look at the De Roure parts list and  the only thing I could see is that from engine number J949034 the following are different..

Cylinder Heads

Valve Springs

Valve Spring Retainers

Valve Rocker Arms

I have no idea where engine number J949034 fits in terms of models/production etc.

But it would be incredulous to believe that Lotus would specify different internal engine components for different variants of the Exige range, given their current penchant for penny pinching (see earlier posts of mine for changes in specifications to the 380), as that would in all probability cost far too much money.

So at this moment in time we have a conundrum.

cheers

Mark

Mark

I didn t know that there was a difference in some part numbers but that make perfect sense.

I m not saying that those different parts is what caused the engine failures as I don t know but I would think that they could be the differences that made lotus choose to lower the rev limit.

I also think that if Lotus have some toyota engines with different parts is just because they didn t have choice but maybe is toyota that changed something in their production as maybe they found a different supplier for some parts or cost or emissions etc.

 

[Mark030358]

1 hour ago, Maxi_z said:

Mark

I didn t know that there was a difference in some part numbers but that make perfect sense.

I m not saying that those different parts is what caused the engine failures as I don t know but I would think that they could be the differences that made lotus choose to lower the rev limit.

I also think that if Lotus have some toyota engines with different parts is just because they didn t have choice but maybe is toyota that changed something in their production as maybe they found a different supplier for some parts or cost or emissions etc.

@Maxi_z Yes but the CURRENT 350 and 430 will rev to +7000rpm hence my arguement that it would be more expensive and plain stupid to modify engine internals on a model by model basis.

cheers

 

[Maxi_z]

I think that if there is a difference is only between older motors and newer motors

I know that the cup r rev limiter was around 7200 rpm but what was the rev limiter on a normal v6 cup?

The 350 and 430 rev to around 7000 but maybe they could do that as the 350 pulley is different so less power and heat and the 430 maybe got better cooling because of it s supercharger so can be mapped different

I would say that the 380 is the that pushes the air supercharger to it s limits so they might have more problems with it and the engine at higher rpm.

 

[chumaxa]

Can you not get the 430 engine spec then ?? 

[geartox]

It could be interested to know how a brand new 350 revs.

 

[Mark030358]

18 minutes ago, geartox said:

 

It could be interested to know how a brand new 350 revs

 

@geartox +7000 rpm from official lotus web sire same as the 430.

18 hours ago, Maxi_z said:

I would say that the 380 is the that pushes the air supercharger to it s limits so they might have more problems with it and the engine at higher rpm

Anyone know the size of the Komotec the 380 pulley is 65 mm. I believe KT also modify the charger internals too, again anyone know what they do?

cheers

Edited February 7, 2018 by Mark030358
Pulley size added

[Maxi_z]

On 07/02/2018 at 16:55, chumaxa said:

Can you not get the 430 engine spec then ?? 

One of the options would be to fit the 430 water cooled supercharger either with a standard engine or a built engine.

But even with the water cooled supercharger afaik the engine block it s the same on the 380 or 430.

 

[Maxi_z]

22 hours ago, Mark030358 said:

@geartox +7000 rpm from official lotus web sire same as the 430.

Anyone know the size of the Komotec the 380 pulley is 65 mm. I believe KT also modify the charger internals too, again anyone know what they do?

cheers

I think that one change the pulley on the engine and the other on the supercharger and I don t know which one make it spin faster.

If you have a look on the forums it looks like in the pictures is the pistons that start to brake.

 

 

 

 

[Bravo73]

1 hour ago, Maxi_z said:

One of the options would be to fit the 430 water cooled supercharger either with a standard engine or a built engine.

But even with the water cooled supercharger afaik the engine block it s the same on the 380 or 430.

 

The block is the same. 

But you would have to work out where to put the plumbing and radiator for the charge cooler. 

[NW76]

38 minutes ago, Bravo73 said:

The block is the same. 

But you would have to work out where to put the plumbing and radiator for the charge cooler. 

Same space that KomoTec uses for their solution ... 

[Maxi_z]

I asked the Lotus dealer to send the warrany claim

I think that if there is an ecu record of an older over rev they have good reasons to not accept any warranty work so that s not the problem but I specifically asked about an official reply from Lotus even if they refuse any warranty work

From my point of view it would be normal that after a customer purchased a brand new exige cup 380 and at only 2400km there is an engine failure that even if the warranty claim is not accepted to at least get a letter or email of refusal that states their refusal (or eventually partial offer of discount) and the reasons for it that I can keep as proof with other documents of the car.

It seems that the dealer will proceed for that but that was not really happy that I insisted to get that official reply for Lotus.

I really don t know but would like others opinion, would you say it s normal to ask to see an official reply from Lotus even if they just refuse the warranty or should I just accept what the dealer say to me without seeing any official reply?

I m not trying to make at this point any particular complaints if they refuse the warranty as I know that I did an over rev by mistake some months before the failure but we also know that the engine have some weak points and that there are similar failures of cars with only street use and automatic gearbox, so I would say that it would be more professional to at least ask for an official reply.

At this point i m not saying that Lotus did not replied I m just saying that the dealer and some people seems to tell me that I m too picky and that is not an usual procedure to ask for a written statement.

 

[Maxi_z]

On 06/02/2018 at 08:19, alias23 said:

I'm a bit confused ... can we just recheck the situation.

- Engine Broke on track
- Lotus Dealer checks ECU and see's an over rev (long time ago not at time of incident) to which he feels could invalidate a warranty claim
- Customer suggests wants a tuned engine (anyway)
- Lotus Dealer provides quote for tuned engine, calls Lotus Group and mentions the over rev to which Lotus Group suggest likely warranty claim would be rejected
- Lotus Dealer doesn't lodge official warranty claim request

Is that the current situation? 

If so my suggestion would be to ask the dealer to begin the official warranty process with Lotus and await formal feedback on if the claim is accepted or rejected. A brief call can't really confirm either way - It should go through the formal process before escalating in my opinion. Lotus Group should be given a fair opportunity to review and make a decision as part of their warranty process.

The tuned engine... what recommendations have the dealer given you? I dont know of many folks who have 'tuned' as in reinforced the standard engine, the only ones I know of are Komotec and Jubu as part of their 500bhp type power upgrades. The engine on a 460 seems to be doing quite well (albeit on the older versions of V6), the gearboxes can find it difficult with that power, but the engines in general seem to be taking 400-430bhp with ease (again albeit the older version of the V6).

IF you want a proper tuned engine here you go:
https://www.motorsportauctions.com/category/333/Prototypes-and-GTs/listings/33870/Lotus-Evora-GT4-Cosworth-GLA-Spec-Race-Engine.html

However i'd save your money for a little while and go through the proper warranty process with Lotus Group first.

@Mark030358 no one has ever confirmed, and I can understand why, but I do believe there has been 'something' which has caused Lotus to change the rev limit position. Maybe Toyota wasn't happy with the risk of their engines being used in the manner a Lotus owner would use it and wanted to de-risk their liability and therefore put terms on the supply to Lotus. Maybe there have been engine claims which has concerned Lotus and they've limited their exposure by applying the rev limiter to the new models. I don't know ... as some would say I'm just 'some bloke' speculating, but for sure I believe something happened to instil the change... I mean why would any sports manufacturer impose such a change on later models unless it was to de-risk. But again I'm just some bloke.

I also like that cosworth na engine but do you think it would fit under the exige hood with that carbon air manifold?

It would also have to be fitted with some specific ecu and I don t know if there would be a way to keep at least the basic street car functions as speedo aircon etc or if you can leave the oem ecu just for that and put an aftermarket ecu for just the engine.

 

[Bravo73]

2 hours ago, NW76 said:

Same space that KomoTec uses for their solution ... 

Is the radiator the same size?

 

1 hour ago, Maxi_z said:

At this point i m not saying that Lotus did not replied I m just saying that the dealer and some people seems to tell me that I m too picky and that is not an usual procedure to ask for a written statement.

With a failure (and warranty claim) of this magnitude, I would expect everything to be documented and provided in writing. 

Out of interest, have you tried contacting Lotus Customer Services directly yourself?

[Bravo73]

1 hour ago, Maxi_z said:

I also like that cosworth na engine but do you think it would fit under the exige hood with that carbon air manifold?

It would also have to be fitted with some specific ecu and I don t know if there would be a way to keep at least the basic street car functions as speedo aircon etc or if you can leave the oem ecu just for that and put an aftermarket ecu for just the engine.

In theory, it would be possible to fit this Cosworth engine to your car. But you would have to pay the development cost of getting the ECU working between the engine and the rest of the car (ie the dashboard). That bill might run into €/$/£‘000s. Somebody has already asked about potentially fitting that engine into an Evora. I’ll try and dig out the thread. 

Here you go: 

 

[Maxi_z]

If there are really some differences that could make some internal parts weaker on the newer engines I wonder if you can still buy from Lotus the older version of the engine and parts or if the newer reference just replaced all the older ones for older models

If you would for example buy a replacement engine for an exgige v6 cup r would you get the older version or would they sell you the newer maybe weaker version of the same engine?

 

[mark248am]

On 2/9/2018 at 01:53, Maxi_z said:

From my point of view it would be normal that after a customer purchased a brand new exige cup 380 and at only 2400km there is an engine failure that even if the warranty claim is not accepted to at least get a letter or email of refusal that states their refusal (or eventually partial offer of discount) and the reasons for it that I can keep as proof with other documents of the car.

 

Not sure if this might help but I was planning to take my Cup to the track this coming weekend and my dealer shared the email below with me.  Another 380 Sport owner wanted to track his car and I believe he hadn't done his first service yet. This is the email our local dealer got in regards to that from Lotus. Basically the email says the car shouldn't be tracked until it has done over 3000kms. Not sure if this is in response to your situation or a number of situations like yours:

Quote

 

The vehicle will need to be run-in before any track use. Ideally this means a minimum of three thousand Kms and the 2,000 Kms service MUST have been completed. New vehicles are supplied with a light oil to aid running in, and after 2,000 Kms this must be replaced with a fully synthetic oil as specified in the Service Notes.

After track driving it is best to replace the gearbox oil (auto and manual) and the engine oil too.

Assuming the vehicle has covered a minimum of 3,000 Kms and the service is done then you do not need to do much in order to track the vehicle as a sports driver.

When tracking the vehicle it is most important to advise the customer not to come into the pits after a heard lap and immediately switch off the engine. This will cause the exhaust catalytic converter to crack up and fail (not warranty!). The customer must perform a "cool down" lap at normal road speeds off of the "racing line" to allow the engine and exhaust system to cool down to normal temperatures and then when he is back in the pits idle the engine for two or three minutes prior to switching it off.

The only other thing is to check the tire pressures as you will lose grip as the 

 

One thing I found odd is that the manual says first service should be done at 1000 while the email says 2000. In the end I went in for my service at 1500.

 

 

 

[Bravo73]

Wow. The contents of that email is certainly going to 'put the cat amongst the pigeons'.

[mark248am]

just realized i didn't copy paste it fully, here is the last bit of the email:

Quote

 

The only other thing is to check the tire pressures as you will lose grip as the tires get hot and their pressure increases. After a couple of fast laps, quickly check and adjust the tire pressures to book value and then use the vehicle (you will have to let air out). The vehicle is stopped for more than 10 minutes and the tires cool down, do a couple of warm up laps to get them up to temperature again before driving hard.

Other than that tell him to have a good day and let us know how it goes.

 

 

[Arun_D]

The emails sounds sensible to me. Don't track until the running in mineral oil is replaced with the proper rated stuff and the engine has it's bedding-in miles complete, and exercise mechanical sympathy on your pride and joy. The only thing extra bit I don't many of us would do is the idling for up to two minutes once back in the pits to prmote a more gentle cool down and avoid high 'hot soak' temperatures that may occur if you just key-off. I certainly don't.